203 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

Kataphrut94 wrote...


That's harder to judge since he was an **** to both sides in the previous games.

Not necessarily. 

[o Ventus]

Bionuts wrote...

Wreav/Wrex.

But you get Eve's sob story, and Mordin/Padok Wiks long conversation of support. No matter what.

And they really did it with Wrex. If you have Wrex in your party, it's a big "no no no no don't sabotage". The power of friendship blah blah.

Which, like I said, is determined by what the player did in 1 and 2. Trying to blame Bioware for showing any inherent bias for something that YOU control is stupid.

[o Ventus]

Podge 90 wrote...

I really wish ME3 didn't retcon what Mordin told us in ME2. He stated that the genophage was commonly and incorrectly seen as a sterility plague, when it was in fact a form of population control, something that can fluctuate with the Krogan species.

But then ME3 makes it out as if we don't cure the 'phage, we doom the Krogan species. So something that was fantastically grey, became unnecessarily black and white.

So I never cure it.

The krogan die out because of the war and the toll it took on their population. This, coupled with the genophage still being in effect, all but ensures their extinction. 

[Cobalt2113]

I don't know about you, but I made my decision about the genophage a long time before ME3. From the first time Wrex talks about it's pretty obvious how horrible it is. In many ways it's a bit like the whole reaper solution. An artificial control imposed on a natural process. Sure it may be more "efficient" and"'safer" but in the end it's inhumane. If you ask me, that's why most people choose it, not because of any other character's opinion.

[Cobalt2113]

StreetMagic wrote...

"Most people" who play these games probably couldn't shoot prairie dogs or rabbits overtaking a territory either. But it has to be done sometimes.

Prairie dogs and rabbits aren't sentient, invalid comparison. A more apt analogy would be shooting Mexicans coming over the US border.

Modifié par Cobalt2113, 04 octobre 2013 - 02:24 .

[cap and gown]

Bionuts wrote...

Since I know so little about the people behind ME, I'd guess that many of the writers changed hands going into ME3. A good guess since the previous games were not so heavily biased and cartoony concerning the genophage.

This does not seem right. In all your conversations with Mordin in ME2, supporting the genophage was the renegade choice, supporting the cure was the paragon choice. In ME2 they made it pretty clear that good guys oppose the genophage. (And I hated them for forcing their morality on me.)

Modifié par cap and gown, 04 octobre 2013 - 02:33 .

[Cobalt2113]

StreetMagic wrote...

Sentience is irrelevant. Sentient and non-sentient life consume and compete all the same. Environments can be depleted or go out of balance regardless.

Are you seriously going to argue this?

No, sentience is not irrelevant. There's something we have called basic human rights. People (mostly) accept that their are basics things that are irrevocably inhumane and wrong to do to another person (I'm applying the word person to krogans as well because, they are). These rules do not apply to non-sentient animals.

Your raise cattle and sell them to another person, that fine. You do that with people, that's slavery. You cannot, or at least should not, apply the same logic to sentient people as to non-sentient animals. It such a huge difference even before you start getting into the philosophical side of things.

[Bionuts]

o Ventus wrote...



Which, like I said, is determined by what the player did in 1 and 2. Trying to blame Bioware for showing any inherent bias for something that YOU control is stupid.

Nothing you do in 1 o2 changes the fact that Eve and Mordin/Padok Wiks have extensive dialogue supporting the cure in ME3.

Nothing you do changes that. Nothing.

[Podge 90]

o Ventus wrote...

Podge 90 wrote...

I really wish ME3 didn't retcon what Mordin told us in ME2. He stated that the genophage was commonly and incorrectly seen as a sterility plague, when it was in fact a form of population control, something that can fluctuate with the Krogan species.

But then ME3 makes it out as if we don't cure the 'phage, we doom the Krogan species. So something that was fantastically grey, became unnecessarily black and white.

So I never cure it.

The krogan die out because of the war and the toll it took on their population. This, coupled with the genophage still being in effect, all but ensures their extinction. 

That's my point; ME2 establishes that the genophage will not allow the species to become extinct.  It 'sustains' the population at a value that the Salarians considered effective (in terms of a punishment?), as opposed to making Krogan numbers implode or explode.  So then if the Krogan wipe themselves out through war, well in my eyes, that's just Darwinism.

The genophage was an unnatural shackle on the species, like those dog leads that can extend out 20metres.  The dog can be brought right up to the masters' heel, or can be given a bit of slack.  The dog isn't going to break free of the lead and run off from the field, and it isn't going to be choked to death.  The genophage isn't going to be the thing that makes the Krogan become extinct.  ME3 forgot that, and instead of asking the player if they thought the Krogan were ready to be freed/cured, if they trusted the Krogan, how much control and influence they believed Wrex wielded, ME3 asked us if we want to kill a species.  It's far shallower, and far less interesting.

Modifié par Podge 90, 04 octobre 2013 - 02:47 .

[Bionuts]

cap and gown wrote...


This does not seem right. In all your conversations with Mordin in ME2, supporting the genophage was the renegade choice, supporting the cure was the paragon choice. In ME2 they made it pretty clear that good guys oppose the genophage. (And I hated them for forcing their morality on me.)

But there was extensive dialogue concerning the matter and Mordin made a good case for it, at least.

Whereas in ME3 you nobody conversing about the cons and a bunch of dialogue trying to sob you into the cure.

[Excella Gionne]

In real life, this thing happens all of the time. You don't betray a friend who has helped you in the past, and you don't know what Krogans go through... Playing all three games give perspective up to this point, people rather blame ME3 than their own judgement most of the time....

[Cobalt2113]

StreetMagic wrote...

It's irrelevant because nature doesn't care about rights. It'll go down the toilet whether it's abused by some invasive animal species or a "Krogan". You're not going to be patted on the back for being nice to the "sentient" species, but not to non-sentient species. There is a cost either way. "Rights" only work as far as social life goes. Not in ecology.

OK, let's say that I agree with you. So the reason that we're doing this is because we're afraid that the Krogans will expand too fast and there'll be strife and so on.

Isn't that the exact same thing that council races have been saying about humans the whole time? I suppose now we should implement a human genophage. Just to keep things under control, better to be on the safe side right?

edit: Oh and just for that extra bit you added. Is it actually shown that the Krogan will destroy the ecosystem of any planet they colonise? I thought the basic message of what's shown is that they'r rebuilding.

Modifié par Cobalt2113, 04 octobre 2013 - 02:57 .

[cap and gown]

The whole genophage thing was made crazy in ME2 by a writer who wanted to make a more sympathetic character. I listened to him talk about writing the Mordin character and came away understanding why the entire storyline of the genophage is so, so bad

In ME1 the genophage was a sterility plague. Period. Well this writer, who was tasked with doing the role of Mordin felt that everybody who had played ME1 would be big buddies with Wrex and therefore automatically hate Mordin. So he out and out retconned the genophage to make Mordin more sympathetic. Character over continuity. Character over common sense. Character over science.

And so it goes in the world of BW.

Modifié par cap and gown, 04 octobre 2013 - 03:04 .

[Cobalt2113]

I guess I'm of the belief that the Krogan could also contribute, if given the chance. But obviously there's no way to know. They'd certainly need to have some sort of way of controlling their own population though, you're right about that. Or that long lifespan and high birthrate thing would be a massive problem.

[Dubozz]

Tuchanka was my favourite part of the game. Thought it was done very good. I wasn't disappointed about the choices, thats for sure.

[grey_wind]

I'm in agreement with the OP. Nobody in ME3 makes a logical case for sabotaging the cure. The only person opposing it is a loud, bigoted caricature whose sole attempt to sway you boils down to giving you more war assets.

The game really needed somebody who the player could trust as reliable to stress the cons of the Genophage. Mordin (if the cure was destroyed in ME2) and Padok should have been the obvious counterpoints to Wrex and Eve's idealism.

But this isn't surprising, considering ME3 reduces the Genophage from a population control mechanism to a sterility plague and completely ignores the fact that Wrex's entire rule in ME2 derives from manipulating the limited supply of fertile females.

[cooldonkeyfish]

I want to know why you're so angry about this... the whole mission on Tuchanka is probably the best written in the entire game (second only to Rannoch IMPO) - genophage decision included.
It stresses the difficulty of war - is it worth getting that extra aid?
Anyway, they've been pushing the hurtfulness of the genophage all throughout the ME trilogy, so why should they stop now?

[elrofrost]

Actually who matters is Eve. If she is alive there's a chance the Kogan will return to peaceful ways. If she's dead, and if Wrex is dead too.. then it's made VERY clear that Wreav will seek revenge. That to me was the hard choice. I played one game where Wrex was dead and Eve died. Do I risk the cure knowing Wreav will go to war? I choose no by the way.

But with Eve alive it becomes complicated, if Wrex is dead.

Now the gold standard is Wrex and Eve being alive. With both being alive and if you don't run with the cure you SHOULD feel bad

Likewise if Eve is dead but Wrex is alive. Another hard chose. But my Shepard was close friends with Wrex. There's no way he'd betray him.