203 réponses à ce sujet

[cap and gown]

A lot of people are placing the emphasis of the choice on the long term fate of the Krogan and/or the galaxy. When I first played ME3 it was my first time with an ME game. So I didn't know the back story. (Plus I got Wreav and a dying Eve.) But even if I did know it I would have made the same decision in a blind playthrough: go ahead with the cure. Why? Because I had no way of knowing that the Krogan wouldn't figure this out right quick and then we'd be screwed. I mean, how long is it going to take to realize they ain't having babies versus how long will this war last? The second the Krogan know the cure was a fake they are going to bail on the whole alliance thing. Or at least, that was what I was afraid of since, as I said, I was playing blind.

Forget what you know from the wiki about how things will turn out in the future. What does Shepard know at the time she is presented with the choice of what to do? I think a reasonable Shepard would be fearful that sabotaging the cure could undermine the war effort.

[RatThing]

I fully agree wth the OP here and might add that the Rannoch arc is even  worse in this matter (with its pro Geth agenda). Before the 3rd game both situations were more or less grey. You had Wrex and Mordin representing 2 sides of the genophage story. In the Geth-Quarian conflict Legion represents the Geth perspective. On the other side you have 3 views on the Geth represented by the 3 Quarian Admirals. Seing them as a possible ally and believe in peace (Koris), seing them as an enemy to be crushed (Gerrel) and seing them as nothing but machines to be used (Xen). Now what happens in the 3rd game if you play a Shepard who agrees with the Genophage and/or wit Xen's or Gerrel's view.

Genophage:
Shepard doesn't have the option to try to talk Wrex/Wreav out of it, he can just antagonize the Dalatrass.
Wrex/Wreav reminds you how Krogans stopped the Rachni, no reminder of the rebellion is needed ("and then they ceased to be useful" is on my top hate list regarding quotes in the game. How about "and then they tried to finish what the Rachni started". More fitting isn't it? )
You want a reminder of the Rebellion, you have to talk to the Primarch. But he supports the cure so it's irrelevant
Mordin immediately changes his mind, Wiks also supports the cure. Shepard is left alone with douchebag Dalatrass.
Countless sympathy grabber by Wrex and Eve (Wrex, former pirate and contract killer all of a sudden becomes Krogan Gandhi), at least Wreav show a little different picture.
An alibi attempt during the shroud mission to put you off from the cure.
You have to kill 2 (former) squadmates yourself to sabotage the cure !!!
And if you do it with Wrex it's all for nothing because he finds out. The EMS from the Salarians aren't nearly high enough to compensate this.

Rannoch:
Xen's option isn't even there. It just isn't. In fact not once can you agree with her, but you can antagonize her and call her crazy all you want. Didn't they even planned a quest where you can either shoot her or arrest her at the end? Hooray for choises. Xen's view is a big no no no in the eyes of Bioware.
The Geth get a whole Mission as a sympathy grabber.
Koris and the Quarians who want peace get a sympathy grabber mission.
Gerrel and pro war Quarians? Oh yeah, those were the douchebags who tried to kill you on that Geth Dreadnought. (Now, Gerrel knew Rael Zorah since they were young and he had respect for him. You can assume he knew Tali since her birth. Now they tell me he wouldn't give two **** about killing her? That's just insanely stupid)
No matter what you did with Legion, Tali doesn't want the war. If you did not give Legion to Cerberus, Tali wants peace, again no matter how you treated Legion. Once more Shepard is left alone with douchebags (or you pay extra 10 Euro to get Javik).
Shepard can tell the Geth that it's not alive ansd antagonize him. Gee thanks. Next moment at the beginning of the main mission Shepard gets all emotional with the geth and ask it to trust him. What? Since when do you ask a machine to trust you?
And to top it all off you get that ridiculous rainbows and butterflys and kumbaya singning ending. This ending literally tells you, you were a fool to pursue anything else but peace, since the Geth, the Quarians, everyone is better off that way. (How in the world would Geth software improve Quarian immune system? And why couldn't the Quarians do it themselves?) And of course it gives you the most EMS as a reward for doing the right thing.

Forgot to add. Sending you on guilt trips by letting Legion/GethVI save Shepard and the Qaurians ("If it hadn't warned us...." )

So yeah, I very much see a bias in both arcs which really pisses me off more than any ending could (which I even end up liking). Not only does that make it a pain in the ass for roleplaying (impossible without head canon) but it makes you believe they take you for a little child who needs to be taught some moral lessons. 








 

Modifié par RatThing, 04 octobre 2013 - 06:30 .

[Sir DeLoria]

I just find it weird how the Geth magically shifted from evil genocidal robots to poor innocent victims in a heartbeat. I love how the death of millions of civilians in the Morning War isn't even mentioned in ME2 or 3.

I don't want to turn this into another Quarian/Geth debate, but I find this shift to be one of the most senseless plot twists in the series.

[Br3admax]

Necanor wrote...
I don't want to turn this into another Quarian/Geth debate,

Deep down inside, you know this is a lie. This is like Imperials/Stormcloaks or Templar/Assassins. 

[Br3admax]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

The writers had a really bad habit of introducing bias in to a lot of their arcs in the game. The Geth and The Krogan were painted as innocent victims throughout the entire game despite the fact that both species had done terrible things. The races that did what they did were painted as big bullies who had nothing bad happen to them.

It was a bit frustrating at times, to be sure.

Agreed. Last minute changes for sympathy always erk me. 

[Reorte]

The problem isn't that there was anyone arguing pro-genophage who wasn't a jerk, the problem is that those wanting it cured didn't offer much for anyone to believe that the Krogan Rebellions Mk II would be happening some time soon after the Reapers were gone. It's something huge missing that Shepard never really challenges Wrex or Eve.

Paragon and Renegade have been brought up earlier but it's another one where it doesn't fit IMO. Paragon is obviously cure but Renegade could well be too - we need the krogan fully on our side to deal with the Reapers, end of.

[eyezonlyii]

My question though, is who would have been credible to give such opinions? Obviously, the Dalatrass is biased because it was her government that made the 'phage. Admiral Xen stood alone, more likely because of her standoffish nature than the argument itself. I did agree with the fact that the geth were just machines, but I couldn't be sure that she wouldn't build a geth army and then we get a third intraspecies galactic war.

[TheProtheans]

Kataphrut94 wrote...


If the Reapers win, what happens with the cure is irrelevant. It's what happens after the war that's important. If the krogan are cured, they'll be in an incredibly strong position, being able to quickly regenerate their numbers while everyone else has been severely weakened. The real question to ask is whether or not they can be trusted in that position.

At this point Shepard doesn't know how long the war will last.
It could last a century or more as they try to find a way to beat the Reapers.
I for one would welcome an easy to make brutal soldier such a krogan to buy time to beat the Reapers.

[DirtySHISN0]

 Im sorry, but this really is clutching at straws. We had Mordin argue for the genophage all the way through ME2. I don't think it's important we spend all of another characters dialogue on (or waste a new character on for that matter) something for the benefit of those who started at ME3 and wont really understand because they missed the build up to the decision anyway.

TL;DR - This is just complaining for the sake of complaining OP.

[AlexMBrennan]

If the Reapers win, what happens with the cure is irrelevant. It's what happens after the war that's important. If the krogan are cured, they'll be in an incredibly strong position, being able to quickly regenerate their numbers while everyone else has been severely weakened. The real question to ask is whether or not they can be trusted in that position.

You are right, of course - if you fear the krogan more than the Reapers (remember that you are curing the genophage only to get the turian fleets Hacket needs).

In the end it all magically works out anyway but at that point Shepard has no reason to think that salerian support he might gain will make up for losing the fleet (if Hacket had needed the salerians he'd have said so, instead he sent Shepard to get the turians).

Wrex/Wreav shouldn't matter at all: There is a war going on, and there it is extremely likely that many will die (e.g. Wreav gets eaten by a thresher maw) so exclusively depending on Wrex to keep the krogan in check is stupid.

[RatThing]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

 Im sorry, but this really is clutching at straws. We had Mordin argue for the genophage all the way through ME2. I don't think it's important we spend all of another characters dialogue on (or waste a new character on for that matter) something for the benefit of those who started at ME3 and wont really understand because they missed the build up to the decision anyway.

TL;DR - This is just complaining for the sake of complaining OP.

And then Mordin changes his mind and all of his arguments are made irrelevant. Plus Mordin argue for the phage in ME2 like Wrex against it in ME1. You can disagree every time with Mordin and tell him how wrong the genophage is. Can you confront Wrex with the rebellions, the violent nature of the Krogan and tell him they can blame themselves for the phage? Nope.  

[TheMyron]

Spare both the Krogan and the Rachni, and they will both keep each others population in check until you can find another form of birth control that doesn't miscarriage after miscarriage.

[justafan]

TheProtheans wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...


If the Reapers win, what happens with the cure is irrelevant. It's what happens after the war that's important. If the krogan are cured, they'll be in an incredibly strong position, being able to quickly regenerate their numbers while everyone else has been severely weakened. The real question to ask is whether or not they can be trusted in that position.

At this point Shepard doesn't know how long the war will last.
It could last a century or more as they try to find a way to beat the Reapers.
I for one would welcome an easy to make brutal soldier such a krogan to buy time to beat the Reapers.

This is exactly how I saw it.  Either we get a few more ships (the Salarians have a small navy comparatively, hi-tech no doubt, but against reapers it's a numbers game) or we get an entire species of fast breeding, rapidly maturing, one man tanks.  At this point in the game, Shepard has no idea how long the war will continue on, and having billions of rapidly reproducing expendable shock troops is just far too valuable in the long run than what ships the Salarians are offering.

Modifié par justafan, 04 octobre 2013 - 09:07 .

[The Night Mammoth]

RatThing wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

 Im sorry, but this really is clutching at straws. We had Mordin argue for the genophage all the way through ME2. I don't think it's important we spend all of another characters dialogue on (or waste a new character on for that matter) something for the benefit of those who started at ME3 and wont really understand because they missed the build up to the decision anyway.

TL;DR - This is just complaining for the sake of complaining OP.

And then Mordin changes his mind and all of his arguments are made irrelevant. Plus Mordin argue for the phage in ME2 like Wrex against it in ME1. You can disagree every time with Mordin and tell him how wrong the genophage is. Can you confront Wrex with the rebellions, the violent nature of the Krogan and tell him they can blame themselves for the phage? Nope.  

Mordin's arguments were pragmatic, based on the reality of the situation at the time. Now the situation has changed. The krogan are needed to fight the Reapers, just like they were needed to fight the rachni, and just like turians and the genophage were needed to fight the krogan afterward.

If Wrex and Eve are dead, the two only steadying influences we know of in krogan society, Mordin can be persuaded to sabotage the cure.

If they're alive, hope remains that the krogan can change, because remember, it's not a case of every clan having their own population of fertile females, krogan females are organised into their own clans and according to ME2 they support Wrex, it's the reason he has so much influence. That, I think, simply puts Wrex and Eve in an even stronger position with the cure.

But anyway, that's not the real point. I agree that the game does not present a balanced case, far from it. The Dalatrass is just Udina all over again; a caricature the player is supposed to dislike. I don't know how it would have worked. Maybe Wreav could have been a bigger player, the leader of a rival faction to Wrex's. Maybe Mordin and Wiks could have opposed each other, with Mordin stressing the dangers and Wiks being more ideological. Perhaps Captain Kirrahe could have come along for the ride as a salarian representative and promoted the middle ground.

I don't think the Rannoch arc suffers from this problem, or at least not to the same extent. Just look at the forum, the choice between the geth or the quarians is a heavily debated topic. Clearly, there's enough against the geth so that a lot of people don't buy into the more limited bias toward them. It helps that the geth are an enemy besides one character.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 04 octobre 2013 - 09:58 .

[eyezonlyii]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I don't think the Rannoch arc suffers from this problem, or at least not to the same extent. Just look at the forum, the choice between the geth or the quarians is a heavily debated topic. Clearly, there's enough to make a lot of people not buy all more limited geth bias. It helps that the geth are an enemy besides one character.

I think is the issue for my Shepard. For the genophage, he really doesn't have a frame of reference for the damage done by the Krogan because the war happened so long ago, and they are NOT the once powerful super army everyone is telling him they are. Sure they are formidable in their own right, not nearly organized enough to cause any sort of problem now. They have to know the glaxy will not stand by idly while if they try to wreak havoc again.

OTOH, the Geth were all over us in ME1, so we can see the devastation they caused the Quarians. Plus the fact that the Quarians are still suffering from that war, having taken a step back evolutionarily (immune system failure) because of the conflict. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I don't see it, OP.

Wrex being friendly towards you is simply him being friendly towards you. It's to be expected, anyway. You both have a history. If you destroy Maelon's data, though, he does find out and his trust in you is severely challenged.

Regardless the Maelon data decision, though, there are plenty of moments that are intended to give the player pause on this issue. Wrex acknowledges that many krogan will want revenge after a genophage cure, but says he won't "let" them. Eve also brings up that very real possibility, and says that while Wrex may oppose them, he's just one man and it may not be enough. There's also the scene of Wrex clamoring for a "krogan empire" in the tomkah, right after meeting with the other clans, and he insists the krogan will need to expand. Dunno about you but that one definitely made me think a little.

While he may be nicer than Wreav, I think plenty of reminder exists that Wrex is the exception, and not the rule. It's not even a reminder that should be necessary for anyone who has played the previous two games. If anything, I'd say the genophage decision is more black-and-white with Wreav: the answer is a resounding "no."

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 04 octobre 2013 - 09:47 .

[AlanC9]

I thought Wreav was supposed to make the case for sabotaging the genophage all by himself.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

AlexMBrennan wrote...


You are right, of course - if you fear the krogan more than the Reapers (remember that you are curing the genophage only to get the turian fleets Hacket needs).

In the end it all magically works out anyway but at that point Shepard has no reason to think that salerian support he might gain will make up for losing the fleet (if Hacket had needed the salerians he'd have said so, instead he sent Shepard to get the turians).

He has no reason to believe he'll lose the turian fleet, either. The Dalatrass tells him that the sabotage option will trick the krogan into thinking they were cured, which is all they needed to believe to start sending troops to Palaven, thus allowing the turians to send support for Earth. Even if Wrex catches on to this, Earth does not lose turian support. Just krogan.

Hackett may not have asked for the salarians, but he doesn't sound very happy to lose their aid, either.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 04 octobre 2013 - 09:57 .

[cap and gown]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
 The Dalatrass tells him that the sabotage option will trick the krogan into thinking they were cured, which is all they needed to believe to start sending troops to Palaven, thus allowing the turians to send support for Earth.

And just how long will this "trick" last? Long enough to finish the war with the Reapers? What if the war drags on long enough for the Krogan to figure out they were "tricked?" Boom, there goes one of your major allies.

As I said earlier, my reasoning behind curing it during my first and blind playthrough was simply my fear that the Krogan would figure out soon enough the cure didn't work and then I would be in worse shape than when I started.

[Wulfram]

Meh, it's fairly balanced over all the various possible permutations. Remember, odd as it may seem on these forums, most people played with Wrex dead. And I don't really think you should ever feel comfortable with your choice to sabotage the cure - I preferred the time when I had to kill Mordin to the time when Wiiks went along with it, because it gave the decision the appropriate amount of guilt, where the other one sometimes seemed to be slapping me on the back for making the right call.

My real complaint with the genophage arc is the overrating of Krogan capabilities compared to the Salarians. The Salarians are supposed to be a great power, but they've got less to contribute than a single poor planet with a fairly low population and limited technology?

[Wulfram]

knucks360 wrote...

When it comes to ground troops,then yes.

I really don't buy that.  Technology, and thus better tanks and guns, trumps regeneration and good melee.
But anyway why limit things to ground troops?  War Assets is everything, including scientific knowhow and manufactoring capabilities and warships, and in all those things the Salarians win by a massive margin.

We shouldn't be short on ground troops anyway, not with the Turian's universal military service.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

cap and gown wrote...

And just how long will this "trick" last? Long enough to finish the war with the Reapers? What if the war drags on long enough for the Krogan to figure out they were "tricked?" Boom, there goes one of your major allies.

As I said earlier, my reasoning behind curing it during my first and blind playthrough was simply my fear that the Krogan would figure out soon enough the cure didn't work and then I would be in worse shape than when I started.

Long enough, most likely, for it not to matter by the time they find out.

The war is not a long-term affair. It comes down to building the Crucible (which the krogan do not contribute anything towards, at all) and using it in a timely manner. If you're taking long enough for the krogan to find out, then you've probably already lost. By the time Priority: Earth is started, every system is Reaper-occupied. At that point, we're pretty much boned.

Once the galactic economy collapses, the war effort goes down right along with it... IMO!