250 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

I'd say slimgrim wasn't really using the term in a bad way (since he states it's a good thing), so I think it's safe to not get too bogged down in the word usage as I'd say you both agree.

'd

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 06 octobre 2013 - 01:45 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Morocco Mole: they're just trying to keep familiarity with their player base.

[AresKeith]

slimgrin wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Now there's a man that has made up his mind. Developers stealing ideas is mostly a good thing imo.

But it's not really stealing, they look at other games as a way to improve of certain aspect

That's what I mean. I think the video game industry is shameless in the sheer amount of hijacking that goes on. But it also leads to much faster innovation. It used to bug the hell out of me, now I embrace an idea that has been stolen yet improved upon. Although I'd hope Bioware can show they innovate rather than inserting ideas from other games, something they have been guilty of in the past. 

Ah, yea I agree

I hope other game devs look at games as a way to improve and innovate

[Dominus]

That's what I mean. I think the video game industry is shameless in the sheer amount of hijacking that goes on. But it also leads to much faster innovation. It used to bug the hell out of me, now I embrace an idea that has been stolen yet improved upon.

Agreeing with slimgrin - If they can find clever ways of implementing older ideas in a fresh way or otherwise derive something new, then more power to them. I misinterpreted the earlier comment.

[wolfhowwl]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Aolbain wrote...

Indeed. That one thing I feel Bioware could take from CDPR is their villains. Hell, some points could be taken from their plots as a whole. Plots in Bioware games degrades into "and then the evily insane/insanely evil people came and tried to kill everyone" depressingly often. 

I agree. Villains in Bioware games that are indoctrinated, corrupted, or possessed are far too common.

This.

Red Lyrium Meredith. Never again.

[RobRam10]

We need a Emhyr var Emreis villain type.

Modifié par RobRam10, 06 octobre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Vilegrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There is a distinct difference between imitation and inspiration. How many genre-changing games would exist without deriving new ideas from the old? Or I may be taking that comment the wrong way, in which case I apologize.

Innovation is absolutely important. But at the same time if a game effectively makes improvements to existing systems, I think other games undermine themselves if they obstinately stick with something that is clearly inferior.

(I use the word obstinately because I mean as a deliberate design choice. Sometimes there are reasons which can delay/complicate making these types of changes).

You also have to be careful about what you consider 'clearly inferior', that can be a deliberate decision (for example limiting how many units can be a hot key group in a RTS, to discourage massive blob attacks, makes them possible still, but harder to coordinate) 

[Snowflake_in_Hel]

I just checked and I have "The Witcher" enhanced edition and "The Witcher 2 Assassins of Kings" in my Steam list. Unfortunately, even though they were installed I never played either game much. In fact, like some other games that I own I couldn't get past the first 5 to 20 minutes of the game.

Perhaps that disqualifies me from making an informed post in this thread, but I am going to comment anyway.

In my opinion, if Bioware wants to absorb some kind of influence from other games, they would do well to check out the combat in Two Worlds Two and perhaps even Risen 2. I spent hundreds of hours in those games, trying to master their combat. I had a great deal of fun while doing so.

So many games, so little time.



Wassail.
Snjarulfr.
werwulf.

Modifié par Snowflake_in_Hel, 06 octobre 2013 - 10:08 .

[zMataxa]

aries1001 wrote...

I'm hoping that Bioware will be inspired by the political plot of the Witcher 2 as well as Geralt's ability to say, nope, not gonna happen, I'll just back away from it all. This was an option I felt was missing in DA2's endgame, you had to choose sides. And then, it didn't matter which side you chose, you had to fight both Templars and Mages in the end. I hope Bioware takes a cue from the Witcher 2 when it comes to make two different and distinctive paths to play through the game.

________________

For me, this is probably the most interesting point when comparing DA series vs Witcher 2 (didn't play Witcher 1).

DA has a politcial plot without a doubt.
At issue is whether we can control the end result more and go in our preffered direction in a much bigger way.
The Cost of such end result is less content, and a challenging (if not impossible) task for a continued story-line in DAI without doubling the production budget.
It has to be so.  It takes huge time to make the Roche/Ivoreth divergence.
If I was more a fan i would play both paths.  But I'm not going to.

So the tradeoff is the overall DA series is more linear with smaller divergences in exchange for more content. Yes, I find it hugely frustrating at times the lack of wider path divergences (go all mage, or all templar) - but in the end for me the trade-off is worth it.
I still get to make my smaller divergences in the directions i want - have my eyerolls when i hit a bigger disappointment (beserk mages again....grrrrrrrr) - but the party members and overall storyline keeps me content.
DA2 was for me a fine success.  I'm on my  second DA2 playthrough with modded characters and loving it.
Witcher 2 remains a struggle to complete - because the overall characters & emotions aren't to my personal liking.

Modifié par zMataxa, 06 octobre 2013 - 07:13 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Vilegrim wrote...

You also have to be careful about what you consider 'clearly inferior', that can be a deliberate decision (for example limiting how many units can be a hot key group in a RTS, to discourage massive blob attacks, makes them possible still, but harder to coordinate) 

I emphasized the world "clearly" to illustrate that that may be a difficult thing.  It's probably also applied on a game by game basis.

[Eternal Phoenix]

I believe Dragon Age should take one thing from The Witcher series:

Branching paths and chapters leading to new content that is exclusive to one choice.

We've only seen a little of this done in Dragon Age: Origins (i.e with the origins themselves, surrendering to Ser Catherine leading to a hour gameplay section you wouldn't experience otherwise and then there's the choice of deciding to defend Redcliffe leading to a lengthy optional quest). I'd like to see more of this in Inquisition even if it doesn't match the same length of the different paths in The Witcher series.

[Tinxa]

What I'd like to see Bioware try sometime is the branching of chapter 2 in TW2 and the way you needed to play through both paths to get the whole picture of the situation. For example if you do Roche's path first, you have no idea that Saskia is the dragon and you don't meet Philippa or learn the point of her plan.

I also liked the fact that the story didn't lead you by the hand and you had to sort out all the kings and their motivations by yourself.
Not like in DA2 where I had the feeling I was beat over the head with the obvious "The killer has your mother!!! He gave her LILIES, WHITE lilies... you see the lilies were white!!!! and at the same time Hawke was supposed to be clueless and only had options to say things like "I'm sure mother will be back soon".

[Alexius]

Like some have pointed out before, I find the two possible outcomes, and thus playthroughs, in TW2 to be an interesting take on storytelling. Personally, the game doesn't do it for me for several reasons, but that definitely called my attention.

[Silfren]

Tinxa wrote...

What I'd like to see Bioware try sometime is the branching of chapter 2 in TW2 and the way you needed to play through both paths to get the whole picture of the situation. For example if you do Roche's path first, you have no idea that Saskia is the dragon and you don't meet Philippa or learn the point of her plan.

I also liked the fact that the story didn't lead you by the hand and you had to sort out all the kings and their motivations by yourself.
Not like in DA2 where I had the feeling I was beat over the head with the obvious "The killer has your mother!!! He gave her LILIES, WHITE lilies... you see the lilies were white!!!! and at the same time Hawke was supposed to be clueless and only had options to say things like "I'm sure mother will be back soon".

I have no idea how big the thing about Saskia is, but that feels like a fairly big spoiler I'd have preferred to learn through the game.  Going to just bow out of this thread now so I can go into TW2 as unspoiled as possible.

Modifié par Silfren, 06 octobre 2013 - 11:38 .

[slimgrin]

Silfren wrote...

Tinxa wrote...

What I'd like to see Bioware try sometime is the branching of chapter 2 in TW2 and the way you needed to play through both paths to get the whole picture of the situation. For example if you do Roche's path first, you have no idea that Saskia is the dragon and you don't meet Philippa or learn the point of her plan.

I also liked the fact that the story didn't lead you by the hand and you had to sort out all the kings and their motivations by yourself.
Not like in DA2 where I had the feeling I was beat over the head with the obvious "The killer has your mother!!! He gave her LILIES, WHITE lilies... you see the lilies were white!!!! and at the same time Hawke was supposed to be clueless and only had options to say things like "I'm sure mother will be back soon".

I have no idea how big the thing about Saskia is, but that feels like a fairly big spoiler I'd have preferred to learn through the game.  Going to just bow out of this thread now so I can go into TW2 as unspoiled as possible.

Unfortunately, it's a pretty big WTF moment if you don't know. But the game is 2 yrs old, people are going to talk freely about it now. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 06 octobre 2013 - 11:58 .

[Han Shot First]

Its a pretty big spoiler actually, but not a game-breaking one. I was late to the Witcher series and had that spoiled for me as well, but still loved the game. Saskia is an important character but not one heavily involved in Geralt's main quest.

[zMataxa]

Tinxa wrote...

I also liked the fact that the story didn't lead you by the hand and you had to sort out all the kings and their motivations by yourself.

________________

Hmmm.
I honestly felt just as limited in Witcher 2 as in DA, except DA had the added illusion of choice for many encounters.  That "illusion of choice" was great IMO.
The Witcher 2  story cutscenes dragged you along and all you had for options was whether to choose the first main option or ask the other lines of questioning below first.
Asking the various NPCs for more info - well that was no different that DA.

Modifié par zMataxa, 07 octobre 2013 - 02:57 .

[zMataxa]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I would argue the illusion of choices in a "choice-based RPG" is far worse. DA2 was particularly bad about this in... well, almost everything. To absolutely stupid levels.

I of course, have no issue with plot railroading myself. Its a sad inevitability with most RPGs that try to implement them in the modern age due to time constraints and resources. And the Witcher series has its fair share of it too. But it does succeed in making choices impact the story in several ways. Something DA has failed to do at all.

_________________________

Hey MM,

Besides the Roche/Ivoreth divergence - what were the other big impacts?
Playing the game (I'm into last Act now)/Reading the guide I didn't really see any biggies.  Did I miss em?

I liked the illusion of choice because I got reactions to my my various "moods".
Most other games you got one choice.
But then,  I like the small reactions in a conversation. 
I know it's not everyone's cup of tea.
What do you prefer in that regard?

Modifié par zMataxa, 07 octobre 2013 - 03:05 .

[fchopin]

Personally i would prefer to see class and race differences in the game that are specific and only accessed because of race or class you play as.
TW2 chapter 2 options are nice but not really necessary for DAI as it is a different game.

[Tinxa]

Silfren wrote...

Tinxa wrote...

What I'd like to see Bioware try sometime is the branching of chapter 2 in TW2 and the way you needed to play through both paths to get the whole picture of the situation. For example if you do Roche's path first, you have no idea that Saskia is the dragon and you don't meet Philippa or learn the point of her plan.

I also liked the fact that the story didn't lead you by the hand and you had to sort out all the kings and their motivations by yourself.
Not like in DA2 where I had the feeling I was beat over the head with the obvious "The killer has your mother!!! He gave her LILIES, WHITE lilies... you see the lilies were white!!!! and at the same time Hawke was supposed to be clueless and only had options to say things like "I'm sure mother will be back soon".

I have no idea how big the thing about Saskia is, but that feels like a fairly big spoiler I'd have preferred to learn through the game.  Going to just bow out of this thread now so I can go into TW2 as unspoiled as possible.

I'm really sorry. I hate to spoil things for other people but the game isn't new and it seemed obvious to me that a thread discussing The Witcher games would also include spoilers for the games.

[aries1001]

As for spoilers for games re: the one about Saskia in TW2, (which I just saw as well), I'll mention this:

Not all of us (including me) have time to play all the game we want to play at the pace we'd like. (I still haven't played Arcanum, Fallout 2, NWN2, KOTOR, or KOTOR2 and a lot of other games). That said, I also felt spoiled a bit when the plot of Mass Effect 1, ME2 and ME3 and especially the ending to ME3 were revealed. The same goes for Oblivion and in part, Skyrim. It basically is very difficult to be a gamer these days without someone or some game magazine etc. spoiling the game for you. The same goes for the original, the first Witcher.That said, I'd also say this:

When DA2, and DA: Origins came out, I felt spoiled also. But then I played the game, and there's no way, the spoilers for Witcher 1, DA2, and DA:O could have prepared me for the games themselves, especially Witcher 1 and DA:O and in part, also DA2. The games turned out to be so much more than what was spoiled, knowing that there are two separate paths in Witcher 2 and what generally happens if you take route 1 instead of route 2, won't spoil the game too much for me. As Hawke et al. in DA, knowing the story in general terms could not have prepared me the very deep and engaging personal story in DA2. [Yes, I like DA2, not at least because of the story, the characters and the writing]. And I'm playing DA:O again (as a female mage this time). And yes, we've and I've been spoiled many, many times. However, nothing could have prepared for the depth and awesomeness of this game.

The point being this:
Yes, some might find the reveal of Saskia's fate in Witcher 2 a (big) spoiler, but play the game anyway. (I sure intend to do so). As I understand it, the main story isn't (too) spoiled by revealing Saskia's fate. I have also developed over the years the ability to forget something spoilery about a game I just have read e.g. Bioshock Infinite comes to mind.

On topic:
As I've said before: Bioware could and should get inspired form the Witcher series about this:
- how to use politics in the game
- how to make sure that there are multiple paths to finish the game
- how to make sure we, as the player character, can just walk away

these are the three major points I would like to see where Bioware could/should take a cue from the Witcher series...

[frankf43]

Well seeing as I have never finished a Witcher game while playing both DA games at least ten times, I hope they don't take too much from Witcher.

[MrTijger]

Nothing, both franchises have distinct styles and storytelling and this is something that should be both respected and celebrated.

I've played both extensively and enjoyed both but beyond being video games in a somewhat medieval setting they practically share nothing and that's a good thing because it means we'll get a Witcher 3 and a DA:I which will both have their own take on their worlds,nothing as boring as games becoming the same and for illustration look no further than the current state of MMO's, imho.