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[General TSAR]

What is the fascination with the oxmen and their philosophy?

It's straight up Bolshevism.

[Will-o'-wisp]

StreetMagic wrote...

Faulty logic? Because I didn't recite the Canterbury Tales and relate this to medieval England? I simply dealt with this as a fantasy world, with some of it's own exceptions.

And you do care if people prefer something else. I barely come to this section of these forums, and you (EmperorSahlertz) are practically infamous as the token Qun defender. It's like all you do. We don't even know each other, and I've already noticed this is your schtick around here.

I'll say one thing I like about real Qunari though. They don't bother with debates or all of this talking. This is exhausting. I told the guy above earlier I didn't want to be converted, and all I got was two others on my ass. You can't help yourselves. I think you're literally ****ing nuts, how far you take this stuff.

How about you just leave the thread then? We've proven the faults in your argumentation, you still won't admit it and that's probably how far we will get here.
If you don't like the Qun that's fine, but don't come to this thread, start an Argument and then accuse us of exhausting you with our "schtick".

[billy the squid]

StreetMagic wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Who says you can't have a farm? This is not the real world. You can't hold me to some realistic medieval English standard, all in the hopes of getting me to convert to some fantasy religion run by Cow Men. Nothing is quite realistic. Everything needs to be redefined on Thedas' terms.

Well if you're going to redefine things at random, because it doesn't fit with what you want to see feudal society as, then the entire point of having the Qun as a counter balance to Thedas's medieval society is pointless. Ipso facto the various races of the DA universe are pointless, they may as well not exist and we should have a no elves, dwarves, Qunari only humans. No peasants, nobles or chantry. No various States and countries.

Hell we should turn it into a JRPG, if we can just redefine anything we want.

And no one is trying to convert you, you're being told that your logic is disingeneous and dumb, what you do with that information is neither here nor there.

Hmm. You really put some thought into this. Here's some advice: I think you'd be happier if you just hated me. Not tried to convince me. Are you hoping I'll somehow see the "light" and be your friend one day? Don't. It's a waste of time.

Yep, I put a full 5 minutes into writing a post while having my lunch, I spent far too long clearly. I wouldn't hate you by any means, maybe if it gave you the ego boost that you seem to desperately need, but I don't have that kind of time. 

Don't worry I'll deride you somewhere else another time. I don't try to make friends here, I thought that was obvious, but apparantly people get more obtuse all the time.

[Karlone123]

Probably washing dishes.

[Heimdall]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Ferelden has serfdom. Not sure if we've got anything explicit on that front, but generally free Ferelden is contrasted to Orlais, which definitely does have serfs.

If you appeal to medieval europe, then serfdom was on it's way out by the 15th century in England and I believe in the rest of western europe - and Thedas seems fairly late medieval generally.

Of course there are still practical difficulties to leaving your farm even if there isn't any legal impediment

Going to have to agree with this.  The impression I got from the games was that the farmers of Ferelden owned the land they worked on.  Not sure about the Free Marches, always wondered what all those nobles actually did up there in High Town aside from act Noble-ish.

Its also worth noting that Ferelden peasants have a surprisingly high literacy rate, whereas Orlesian peasants were noted to have a comparatively low literacy rate in Asunder.

[GodWood]

General TSAR wrote...
What is the fascination with the oxmen and their philosophy?

It's one of the few reasonably unique facets of the DA setting that has interesting moral dilemma surrounding it.

[Heimdall]

GodWood wrote...

General TSAR wrote...
What is the fascination with the oxmen and their philosophy?

It's one of the few reasonably unique facets of the DA setting that has interesting moral dilemma surrounding it.

Yup, it's pretty much the only thing in the setting that isn't little more than a slight twist on established fantasy norms.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Ferelden has serfdom. Not sure if we've got anything explicit on that front, but generally free Ferelden is contrasted to Orlais, which definitely does have serfs.

If you appeal to medieval europe, then serfdom was on it's way out by the 15th century in England and I believe in the rest of western europe - and Thedas seems fairly late medieval generally.

Of course there are still practical difficulties to leaving your farm even if there isn't any legal impediment

Going to have to agree with this.  The impression I got from the games was that the farmers of Ferelden owned the land they worked on.  Not sure about the Free Marches, always wondered what all those nobles actually did up there in High Town aside from act Noble-ish.

Its also worth noting that Ferelden peasants have a surprisingly high literacy rate, whereas Orlesian peasants were noted to have a comparatively low literacy rate in Asunder.

The Fereldan agriulture is indeed built up around Freeholders. Basically the Ferelden culture frowns upon ownership of another person. So even though not all farmers are Freeholders, they would technically be hired to work the fields, instead of commisioned to it. However, such systems has also existed in our world, and in these cases, these Freeholders didn't technically own the epasants, they were the only job offering for miles around, and thus was the only source of income for the peasants, and thus they were practically owned by the Freeholder.

[drome34]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Ferelden has serfdom. Not sure if we've got anything explicit on that front, but generally free Ferelden is contrasted to Orlais, which definitely does have serfs.

If you appeal to medieval europe, then serfdom was on it's way out by the 15th century in England and I believe in the rest of western europe - and Thedas seems fairly late medieval generally.

Of course there are still practical difficulties to leaving your farm even if there isn't any legal impediment

Going to have to agree with this.  The impression I got from the games was that the farmers of Ferelden owned the land they worked on.  Not sure about the Free Marches, always wondered what all those nobles actually did up there in High Town aside from act Noble-ish.

Its also worth noting that Ferelden peasants have a surprisingly high literacy rate, whereas Orlesian peasants were noted to have a comparatively low literacy rate in Asunder.

The Fereldan agriulture is indeed built up around Freeholders. Basically the Ferelden culture frowns upon ownership of another person. So even though not all farmers are Freeholders, they would technically be hired to work the fields, instead of commisioned to it. However, such systems has also existed in our world, and in these cases, these Freeholders didn't technically own the epasants, they were the only job offering for miles around, and thus was the only source of income for the peasants, and thus they were practically owned by the Freeholder.

What do you think the Qun is most influenced by, in terms of political litterature and philosophy and religion? 

I think they sound alot like platos republic together with a Taoist approch to wisdom.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed. I believe they resemble 'the Republic' the most, even though Qunari are ruled by a triumvirate, and not solely by philosophers. However, Qunari do palce great value on philosophy. It is undeniable that the Ariqun holds great influence on Qunari society.
Taoism and Confucianism also seems to be good parallels of Qunari society. Especially the world view.

[GodWood]

Taoism demands a completely laissez faire approach to leadership and politics. Confucianism is primarily concerned with familial relationships.

Any parallels between these two religions and the Qun would be superficial at best.

[drome34]

GodWood wrote...

Taoism demands a completely laissez faire approach to leadership and politics. Confucianism is primarily concerned with familial relationships.

Any parallels between these two religions and the Qun would be superficial at best.

Ah , I see. Im not so at home with these philosophies. Thanks for the education.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Andrastee wrote...

Even if the best you can do is to be fed by tamassrans, you will be in that spot. Everybody do the best they can. And if being fed is your only talent, that is what will happen. Nobody dies needlessly under the Qun. Whether you are crippled, born deformed or with magic, the Qun does not wish to see you dead. You exist to be, such is your role as a living creature. And the Qun demands you ascertain that duty.

I don't think we have enough information on how the Qunari deal with mental illness for anyone to make that declaration about my enirely hypothetical alternate universe self. I have no idea how they treat people who spend a substantial amount of time hearing things that aren't real, but I suspect the answer may be 'not well'.

Actually, we do. We have from a dev that those who are unable to work are cared for by those with talent and training in that direction.

[EmperorSahlertz]

GodWood wrote...

Taoism demands a completely laissez faire approach to leadership and politics. Confucianism is primarily concerned with familial relationships.

Any parallels between these two religions and the Qun would be superficial at best.

That's also why I was refering to the world view of each Taoism and Confucianism, and not necessarily the deeper philosophies within each. And exchange the family of the confucian with the colleagues of a Qunari, and you have the same importance. Qunari simply exchange family, with a unit.

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

As a peasant, I'm still free to hate society and not give a **** about contributing. In most cases, I can work, switch careers, get experience at different things, exceed my limitations by practicing new skills, get by enough to feed myself, and stay out of people's hair (and they stay out of mine). Or if I go nuts, I can be a bandit. Maybe some noble adventurer will cut me down on the way to his big epic quest, but it'll be fun in the meantime.

This is such utter rubbish. There really is no other word for it.

Feudalism kept the pesants on the lowest rung due to their position as serfs. They owned no land, they owned no weapons, they had no livestock. Everything they had was owned by their Feudal Lord, who could if he wished, have them executed on a whim. They were conscripted as cannon fodder troops and had no health care, sanitation or rights. Effectively they were the lowest of the low and died in the muck and filth, most before they were 40. And if they rebelled, well I think you can imagine what happened when untrained, unarmoured men went up against fully armed and armoured soldiers trained from birth as warriors. 

You didn't practice skills as you worked from sunrise to sunset to feed yourself and pay the taxes of your overlord, you had no career choice as there was no training. The best you could hope for was to be taken on as an apprentice by a craftsman at a young age. Maybe taken as a mercenary, although this was an English thing, recruiting Longbowmen from a trained pesantry into a military  band under command of a Captain. Both rare occurances.

As a bandit? You mean a poacher, to feed oneself because you were starving. You'd be hung when you were eventually caught and if you're lucky you'd break your neck before the trickle of ****** ran down your leg as you lost control of your bladder. 

But hey, how about that freedom! Got to love the freedom.

Fascinating.

Now what evidence is there that Thedosian society operates anything like that?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

This is such utter rubbish. There really is no other word for it.

Feudalism kept the pesants on the lowest rung due to their position as serfs. They owned no land, they owned no weapons, they had no livestock. Everything they had was owned by their Feudal Lord, who could if he wished, have them executed on a whim. They were conscripted as cannon fodder troops and had no health care, sanitation or rights. Effectively they were the lowest of the low and died in the muck and filth, most before they were 40. And if they rebelled, well I think you can imagine what happened when untrained, unarmoured men went up against fully armed and armoured soldiers trained from birth as warriors. 

You didn't practice skills as you worked from sunrise to sunset to feed yourself and pay the taxes of your overlord, you had no career choice as there was no training. The best you could hope for was to be taken on as an apprentice by a craftsman at a young age. Maybe taken as a mercenary, although this was an English thing, recruiting Longbowmen from a trained pesantry into a military  band under command of a Captain. Both rare occurances.

As a bandit? You mean a poacher, to feed oneself because you were starving. You'd be hung when you were eventually caught and if you're lucky you'd break your neck before the trickle of ****** ran down your leg as you lost control of your bladder. 

But hey, how about that freedom! Got to love the freedom.

Fascinating.

Now what evidence is there that Thedosian society operates anything like that?

While I haven't read it myself, the book Loghain meets Maric in apparently paints the Orlesian lords as imposing this on Ferelden (which is not predisposed to it, unless you're an elf.) I have read the Codex, wherein it is made clear they've already succeeded in their own country.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 octobre 2013 - 01:27 .

[David7204]

Billy the Squid has no clue at all what he's talking about.

Despite what he may have deluded himself into believing, the Middle Ages were not a hellish tyranny of muck, filth, and constant work.

Modifié par David7204, 09 octobre 2013 - 01:26 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

I imagine either a craftsman or possibly a warrior.
Either way I'd be content, since I wouldn't have those crazy ideas about choosing what to be, since I wouldn't have been born in a society that teaches us those things. 

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 09 octobre 2013 - 01:35 .

[robertthebard]

Poison93 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Wait; so being born in a non Qun Society and

In every other part of Thedas you're born a peasant/commoner who's nothing more than a slave to his/her noble master, has very few rights, no social mobility whatsoever and doesn't have any bit more "freedom" or "free will" than someone who lives in the Qun

is somehow inferior to somebody that is born within the Qun and still has no chance at social advancement?  How, in the Qun, are you more than a slave to your master?  Isn't that what being told "you are good at this, and this is all you'll ever be, should ever aspire to be" the same thing?  Or, is it different only because you have head canon that it is.  Because, you know, being born into a society with no chance for advancement means pretty much the same thing, and frankly, you're much more of a "slave" in the Qun.  I mean, come on, it's not like a Dwarf Commoner, or a City Elf could ever stop a blight before it gets out of Ferelden, is it?

Of course it is inferior to being assigned to your role. You're Born a peasant. That's it, now you're a peasant.

In the Qun you are Born as equal to everyone else and educated until the Age of 12 until the Tamassran choose your future Profession based on your talents. And whatever you will be, you will be respected as a contributor to your Society. You're not just "some filthy, stupid peasant" and noone views you as their property. I don't see how that can be considered slavery.
As Qunari you can even ascent within your role, just look at Sten who became Arishok. I guess it's like that in many other professions as well and inside the Qun you are not restricted by the Status you were born into.

Actually, you are stuck into whatever role they decide you were born into.  In the meantime, my City Elf rose from two steps below a slave to the Grey Warden that gave her life to save Thedas from the 5th blight.  Guess what; in the Qun, whatever lot they assigned me to would be all I'd have ever been.  When faced with a choice between the two, I'll take the former.

[Vit246]

In every other part of Thedas you're born a peasant/commoner who's nothing more than a slave to his/her noble master, has very few rights, no social mobility whatsoever and doesn't have any bit more "freedom" or "free will" than someone who lives in the Qun

I call BS. For one thing, social mobility does exist in some places. Look at Loghain and Cauthrien.

Also, peasants and farmers can become merchants and soldiers and rise up in that.

Modifié par Vit246, 09 octobre 2013 - 03:39 .

[Mox Ruuga]

 Qun fans seem to love insisting real life medieval feudalism has to be the reality on the ground in Thedas for the Andrastian cultures. Especially when anything miserable is concerned.

On the other hand, the real life tyranny, famine, and all around misery that resulted from attempts at making collectivist all compassing societies like the Qun are naturally not applicable and "bias" on our part.

[Fredward]

David7204 wrote...

Billy the Squid has no clue at all what he's talking about.

Despite what he may have deluded himself into believing, the Middle Ages were not a hellish tyranny of muck, filth, and constant work.

LIAR! Wikipedia and my grade 6 history teacher say OTHERWISE!

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

As a peasant, I'm still free to hate society and not give a **** about contributing. In most cases, I can work, switch careers, get experience at different things, exceed my limitations by practicing new skills, get by enough to feed myself, and stay out of people's hair (and they stay out of mine). Or if I go nuts, I can be a bandit. Maybe some noble adventurer will cut me down on the way to his big epic quest, but it'll be fun in the meantime.

This is such utter rubbish. There really is no other word for it.

Feudalism kept the pesants on the lowest rung due to their position as serfs. They owned no land, they owned no weapons, they had no livestock. Everything they had was owned by their Feudal Lord, who could if he wished, have them executed on a whim. They were conscripted as cannon fodder troops and had no health care, sanitation or rights. Effectively they were the lowest of the low and died in the muck and filth, most before they were 40. And if they rebelled, well I think you can imagine what happened when untrained, unarmoured men went up against fully armed and armoured soldiers trained from birth as warriors. 

You didn't practice skills as you worked from sunrise to sunset to feed yourself and pay the taxes of your overlord, you had no career choice as there was no training. The best you could hope for was to be taken on as an apprentice by a craftsman at a young age. Maybe taken as a mercenary, although this was an English thing, recruiting Longbowmen from a trained pesantry into a military  band under command of a Captain. Both rare occurances.

As a bandit? You mean a poacher, to feed oneself because you were starving. You'd be hung when you were eventually caught and if you're lucky you'd break your neck before the trickle of ****** ran down your leg as you lost control of your bladder. 

But hey, how about that freedom! Got to love the freedom.

Fascinating.

Now what evidence is there that Thedosian society operates anything like that?

I forgot, writing fan fiction has robbed you of any common sense or ability to read non fiction. 

Considering Orlesian society and the details of the Chevaliers sounds exactly like feudal France and the system of Serfdom it's not a nice place to live if you are one of the peasant class, Zevran tells you that he was lucky to be sold to the crows in Antiva, considering what happened to the other orphans and he was brought up in a **** house. So there is no system of care, no help for the poor. If you become destitute or unable tou feed yourselves, you become a prostitute, brigand, or sell yourself into bondage to the local lord. Do I even need to go into the details of the Tevinter Imperium?

And you really think that the mass of the population actually has a good life? What world are you living in? It might not portray the ignorance of the peasants by bashing you over the head with it, as it does in TW2, but fanatasy setting seldom have a so fatuous idea that the bulk of society in a medieval setting lives a good life. But then again that fits in with your deranged idea that the Mages are so oppressed.

[billy the squid]

David7204 wrote...

Billy the Squid has no clue at all what he's talking about.

Despite what he may have deluded himself into believing, the Middle Ages were not a hellish tyranny of muck, filth, and constant work.

Oh look it's our resident physisist, chemist, economist, literary scholar and now historian. Any other compitencies you'd like to add to the list. I'm waiting for the inevitable, that it was you who developed String Theory. 

Don't keep us all waiting David, we want to hear more pearls of wisdom from our heroic Messiah.

Modifié par billy the squid, 09 octobre 2013 - 08:39 .

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...
I forgot, writing fan fiction has robbed you of any common sense or ability to read non fiction.

I don't write fan fiction.

Considering Orlesian society and the details of the Chevaliers sounds exactly like feudal France and the system of Serfdom it's not a nice place to live if you are one of the peasant class, Zevran tells you that he was lucky to be sold to the crows in Antiva, considering what happened to the other orphans and he was brought up in a **** house. So there is no system of care, no help for the poor. If you become destitute or unable tou feed yourselves, you become a prostitute, brigand, or sell yourself into bondage to the local lord. Do I even need to go into the details of the Tevinter Imperium?

None of that is substantial evidence, nor is it relevant to Thedosian property laws, or the career options of the common people.

And you really think that the mass of the population actually has a good life? What world are you living in?

The real one, which is why I don't claim to have intimate knowledge of Thedas's tax and property laws, or the rights of the general populace, all of which are outside the purview of the narrative. I doubt the developers have even put that much thought into it.

It might not portray the ignorance of the peasants by bashing you over the head with it, as it does in TW2, but fanatasy setting seldom have a so fatuous idea that the bulk of society in a medieval setting lives a good life. But then again that fits in with your deranged idea that the Mages are so oppressed.

If it's not 'portrayed', then it's not actually in there, is it.

Even if the peasantry was oppressed, that doesn't excuse the treatment of mages. "Things are worse for y" is not an acceptable reason to ignore the problems of x.