228 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nug Wrangler 3rd class.

[Will-o'-wisp]

robertthebard wrote...

Poison93 wrote...

Of course it is inferior to being assigned to your role. You're Born a peasant. That's it, now you're a peasant.

In the Qun you are Born as equal to everyone else and educated until the Age of 12 until the Tamassran choose your future Profession based on your talents. And whatever you will be, you will be respected as a contributor to your Society. You're not just "some filthy, stupid peasant" and noone views you as their property. I don't see how that can be considered slavery.
As Qunari you can even ascent within your role, just look at Sten who became Arishok. I guess it's like that in many other professions as well and inside the Qun you are not restricted by the Status you were born into.

Actually, you are stuck into whatever role they decide you were born into.  In the meantime, my City Elf rose from two steps below a slave to the Grey Warden that gave her life to save Thedas from the 5th blight.  Guess what; in the Qun, whatever lot they assigned me to would be all I'd have ever been.  When faced with a choice between the two, I'll take the former.

So you'd rather live among the filth of society, be beaten and almost raped (or get your future wife killed, if you played male) and have all of your people in the Alienage being oppressed and even further terrorised because of your actions while you merely escape all this by a twist of fate that only happened to one out of thousands?

Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Modifié par Poison93, 09 octobre 2013 - 11:19 .

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
I forgot, writing fan fiction has robbed you of any common sense or ability to read non fiction.

I don't write fan fiction.

Considering Orlesian society and the details of the Chevaliers sounds exactly like feudal France and the system of Serfdom it's not a nice place to live if you are one of the peasant class, Zevran tells you that he was lucky to be sold to the crows in Antiva, considering what happened to the other orphans and he was brought up in a **** house. So there is no system of care, no help for the poor. If you become destitute or unable tou feed yourselves, you become a prostitute, brigand, or sell yourself into bondage to the local lord. Do I even need to go into the details of the Tevinter Imperium?

None of that is substantial evidence, nor is it relevant to Thedosian property laws, or the career options of the common people.

And you really think that the mass of the population actually has a good life? What world are you living in?

The real one, which is why I don't claim to have intimate knowledge of Thedas's tax and property laws, or the rights of the general populace, all of which are outside the purview of the narrative. I doubt the developers have even put that much thought into it.

It might not portray the ignorance of the peasants by bashing you over the head with it, as it does in TW2, but fanatasy setting seldom have a so fatuous idea that the bulk of society in a medieval setting lives a good life. But then again that fits in with your deranged idea that the Mages are so oppressed.

If it's not 'portrayed', then it's not actually in there, is it.

Even if the peasantry was oppressed, that doesn't excuse the treatment of mages. "Things are worse for y" is not an acceptable reason to ignore the problems of x.

You do know what serfdom is? You know why people were treated so poorly when they became serfs? Because they sold themselves into bondage, they were effectively owned by the ruling feudal lord they had no property rights. If a Chevalier can take any peasant woman he wants, because of his fuedal status as we know they can, then it is exactly the equivalent of serfdom. 

Ferelden is different it's predominately freehold after the Orlesian occupation is repulsed, each person is their own legal entity and subject to a legal recourse. Serfs are reliant on the Feudal Lord, not a justice system for any recourse. 

So it's very relevant to Theodosian property laws. And while in Antiva, there may be less of a feudal nobility, given the influence of the Crows, it's more analygous to the Italian city states with the merchantile politiking where the poor were still poor, but the opportunity to take travel on a ship at a young age was easier than it was in rural France. The devide between rich and poor would still be massive. 

Well as someone who had to study tax and property law, I tend to notice those kind of things. Plus it's not exactly interesting to give a huge narrative to the player, even if it is important to the context of why the Qun is so appealing to the lower classes. Or are you still convinced that a medieval society lives on lolipops and sunshine and farts rainbows?


Secondly if we're going to play the selective disregard game then Templars don't rape mages because it's not portrayed, the Right of Annulment and abuse doesn't happen as we never see it, But we have seen Mages turn into abominations frequently, Ipso Facto, Mages are dangerous and have every right to be imprisioned.

[GodWood]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That's also why I was refering to the world view of each Taoism and Confucianism, and not necessarily the deeper philosophies within each. And exchange the family of the confucian with the colleagues of a Qunari, and you have the same importance. Qunari simply exchange family, with a unit.

The fundamental basis of Taoism is to act in accordance with Wu-Wei or effortless action/action without effort. In the most simplest of terms this would mean going with the flow of nature and the world. This is completely at odds with the Qunari's insistence on enforcing strict order on a world they see as chaotic.

Confucianism and the Qun both valuing the group of people they live with is like I said, an incredibly superficial similarity.   

[EmperorSahlertz]

An opposite runs parallel.

[Tinu]

I would be the new cookie-maker. Sten's first job offer that went out after he became Arishok.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

GodWood wrote...

Taoism demands a completely laissez faire approach to leadership and politics. Confucianism is primarily concerned with familial relationships.

Any parallels between these two religions and the Qun would be superficial at best.

Confucianism has other aspects as well. Maxims about virtue, wisdom and political matters. The relations between a moral person, family and a fair government.
Historically, Confucianism is the philosophy of bureaucrats and ministers in the Chinese kingdoms and empires.

About the Qun... they're more like weird and complicated tribal communists.

Modifié par Kaiser Arian, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:26 .

[robertthebard]

Poison93 wrote...

So you'd rather live among the filth of society, be beaten and almost raped (or get your future wife killed, if you played male) and have all of your people in the Alienage being oppressed and even further terrorised because of your actions while you merely escape all this by a twist of fate that only happened to one out of thousands?

Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Pyramid snipped.

Yes, because I had free will to do it, and others can follow my example.  The Dwarf Commoner wasn't much better, but guess what, they could rise up the same way, and do, depending on who you make King of Orzammar.  Nearly every dialog with Sten in Origins has him questioning the value of free will.  This is the very first thing that is stifled under the Qun.  You are free to do what they tell you to do, and anything else is punishable by death.  They accept it because they don't know any other way, but if it were such an ideal system, there would be no Tal Vashoth(spelling?).  Because, if it were such an ideal system, everyone born into it would gladly accept their fate, rather than rebel against it.

[drome34]

robertthebard wrote...

Poison93 wrote...

So you'd rather live among the filth of society, be beaten and almost raped (or get your future wife killed, if you played male) and have all of your people in the Alienage being oppressed and even further terrorised because of your actions while you merely escape all this by a twist of fate that only happened to one out of thousands?

Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Pyramid snipped.

Yes, because I had free will to do it, and others can follow my example.  The Dwarf Commoner wasn't much better, but guess what, they could rise up the same way, and do, depending on who you make King of Orzammar.  Nearly every dialog with Sten in Origins has him questioning the value of free will.  This is the very first thing that is stifled under the Qun.  You are free to do what they tell you to do, and anything else is punishable by death.  They accept it because they don't know any other way, but if it were such an ideal system, there would be no Tal Vashoth(spelling?).  Because, if it were such an ideal system, everyone born into it would gladly accept their fate, rather than rebel against it.

I think its unfair to say that a system must have NO bandits/outcasts or people who leave the system for it to be considered good. I remember that 9% of americans would like to give up their citizenship because of bickering in the senate. And ****-germany must have been a wonderful place since 99% approved of the reichstag and their actions in elections held after 1933.

I think some people either dont like their place in Qun or dont understand it and they leave. For example, the tal-vashoth we meet are pretty voilent and heavily armed. Kind of like bandits. Maybe they didnt like to be farmers and wanted more money or were otherwise greedy.

[Medhia Nox]

People call the Qun slavery - but it states clearly that you are bred for a purpose, BUT if you show aptitude for something else - you are trained in that. It's states it clearly in the Codex.

And then - you can move up (or down presumably) - in your group.

That's not slavery - at all.

We don't even know how they test for aptitude... maybe it includes: "What would you like to do?"

The question can be asked, even if there's an understanding that... "Yes, but that's not what you're good at, so no."

[Jarcander]

With my luck, it would be one of those henchmen that get sliced in half with a single hit in combat. I do get neat teleportation ability though. I bet whoever we'll be zerging will be pissed that we just appear out of nowhere. Here's hoping they don't have fireballs!

[animedreamer]

 Spirits Brewer, I'd be great at it, because I don't like to drink Spirits.

[Lluthren]

Nothing with math or tactics. Probably a craftsman or priest, being female and all. I can't fight at all and probably would be too afraid of the consequences if I leave, so that's not an option. I'm apathetic enough to just stay until I die though.

I like artsy stuff and crafting, so most likely a craftsman, like a tailor or something. It might not show very well in DA2, but qunari need someone to make the clothing they(barely) wear.

[Nem-sis]

Heretic, Tal-Vashoth, Outcast and any other pleasant titles the Qunari would grant me. I know that from my personal life experiences that I would reject the views and ideologies of the society I was raised in, if I genuinely opposed them. (And there is much I despise of the Qun.) I figure that if I rejected the society I was born into in real life, that I would do the same in fiction. .

[HurricaneGinger]

Tal-Vashoth because I don't like people telling me what to do. XD

[Richardthelionbutt]

drome34 wrote...

For example, the tal-vashoth we meet are pretty voilent and heavily armed. Kind of like bandits. Maybe they didnt like to be farmers and wanted more money or were otherwise greedy.

Well technically Tal-Vashoth, or true grey, means they are Vashoth who turned violent. There are normal Vashoth, which is regular outcasts of the Qun, and Tal-Vashoth, who actively opposes the Qun. Our Qunquisitor would probabely be a Vashoth born outside of the Qun. I do also believe that Tal-Vashoth are consisted only of Antaam deserters, but I could be wrong.

[robertthebard]

drome34 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Poison93 wrote...

So you'd rather live among the filth of society, be beaten and almost raped (or get your future wife killed, if you played male) and have all of your people in the Alienage being oppressed and even further terrorised because of your actions while you merely escape all this by a twist of fate that only happened to one out of thousands?

Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Pyramid snipped.

Yes, because I had free will to do it, and others can follow my example.  The Dwarf Commoner wasn't much better, but guess what, they could rise up the same way, and do, depending on who you make King of Orzammar.  Nearly every dialog with Sten in Origins has him questioning the value of free will.  This is the very first thing that is stifled under the Qun.  You are free to do what they tell you to do, and anything else is punishable by death.  They accept it because they don't know any other way, but if it were such an ideal system, there would be no Tal Vashoth(spelling?).  Because, if it were such an ideal system, everyone born into it would gladly accept their fate, rather than rebel against it.

I think its unfair to say that a system must have NO bandits/outcasts or people who leave the system for it to be considered good. I remember that 9% of americans would like to give up their citizenship because of bickering in the senate. And ****-germany must have been a wonderful place since 99% approved of the reichstag and their actions in elections held after 1933.

I think some people either dont like their place in Qun or dont understand it and they leave. For example, the tal-vashoth we meet are pretty voilent and heavily armed. Kind of like bandits. Maybe they didnt like to be farmers and wanted more money or were otherwise greedy.

I never said good, I said ideal.  I also never implied that good or bad would be required for people to want to stay.  There's one thing you left out in your list of reasons to leave the Qun, and that one thing was "I don't want to be told that this is all I can ever be".  It doesn't require being violent or greedy to not like the lot that was cast for you.  My CE didn't give her life to save Ferelden out of greed, but she did pull herself out of the slum to be a hero.  Imagine how boring the game would be if you could never rise above your assigned lot in life because the Qun demanded it.

[GodWood]

Kaiser Arian wrote...
Confucianism has other aspects as well.

Of course. 

I however was only referring to the aspects that were mentioned.

About the Qun... they're more like weird and complicated tribal communists.

Much like the Qun's similarities to Confucianism, it's similarities with communism are superficial at best. The Qun lacks the most basic of communist ideology such as a scientific analysis of class relations and the fact that it uses authoritarianism as an end rather than a means to an end. 

[drome34]

robertthebard wrote...

drome34 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Poison93 wrote...

So you'd rather live among the filth of society, be beaten and almost raped (or get your future wife killed, if you played male) and have all of your people in the Alienage being oppressed and even further terrorised because of your actions while you merely escape all this by a twist of fate that only happened to one out of thousands?

Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Pyramid snipped.

Yes, because I had free will to do it, and others can follow my example.  The Dwarf Commoner wasn't much better, but guess what, they could rise up the same way, and do, depending on who you make King of Orzammar.  Nearly every dialog with Sten in Origins has him questioning the value of free will.  This is the very first thing that is stifled under the Qun.  You are free to do what they tell you to do, and anything else is punishable by death.  They accept it because they don't know any other way, but if it were such an ideal system, there would be no Tal Vashoth(spelling?).  Because, if it were such an ideal system, everyone born into it would gladly accept their fate, rather than rebel against it.

I think its unfair to say that a system must have NO bandits/outcasts or people who leave the system for it to be considered good. I remember that 9% of americans would like to give up their citizenship because of bickering in the senate. And ****-germany must have been a wonderful place since 99% approved of the reichstag and their actions in elections held after 1933.

I think some people either dont like their place in Qun or dont understand it and they leave. For example, the tal-vashoth we meet are pretty voilent and heavily armed. Kind of like bandits. Maybe they didnt like to be farmers and wanted more money or were otherwise greedy.

I never said good, I said ideal.  I also never implied that good or bad would be required for people to want to stay.  There's one thing you left out in your list of reasons to leave the Qun, and that one thing was "I don't want to be told that this is all I can ever be".  It doesn't require being violent or greedy to not like the lot that was cast for you.  My CE didn't give her life to save Ferelden out of greed, but she did pull herself out of the slum to be a hero.  Imagine how boring the game would be if you could never rise above your assigned lot in life because the Qun demanded it.

Why would it be boring by not being able to become king or whatever out of nothing? I imagine my warrior would simply be a Karasten or whatever and fight it out and not need any achivements or greater social standing by way of title to be a winner.

And as for having dreams and such I agree, everyone should have a say in what they become. I just dont think most people are fit to become very much in this world, and even when they succeed they arent always the best person for the job, just the one who were willing to be most corrupt or backstab the right person at the right time. Like politicians, they are no more then talking heads. Imagine if they were instead choosen for their actual knowledge and morals. 

I guess we just see it differently.

[Shark17676]

GodWood wrote...

Kaiser Arian wrote...
Confucianism has other aspects as well.

Of course. 

I however was only referring to the aspects that were mentioned.

About the Qun... they're more like weird and complicated tribal communists.

Much like the Qun's similarities to Confucianism, it's similarities with communism are superficial at best. The Qun lacks the most basic of communist ideology such as a scientific analysis of class relations and the fact that it uses authoritarianism as an end rather than a means to an end. 

"Communism" seems to be one of those words that gets thrown around a lot by people who don't actually know what it means.

[Augustei]

I'd like to be the Ariqun or Arishok

[Senya]

I do not honestly know. I will not be the same person that I as a citizen of the United States. I will probably still be spiritual, but Qunari spiritual as they'd stamp out belief in any deity in me. Hmm...

I'd probably be a cook. I will make cookies.

[TKavatar]

I would probably be a craftsman since I can sew and stuff.

[drome34]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I'd like to be the Ariqun or Arishok

Wow, you have big hopes for sure!