Does AP ammo stack with piercing mods? Is there any point to having a piercing mod if you have AP ammo?
AP ammo and piercing mods
Débuté par
cap and gown
, oct. 06 2013 11:59
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#2
Posté 07 octobre 2013 - 12:45
capn233
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I will answer the last part first: not really.
AP ammo and the Piercing mod both apply two effects, which stack differently.
1. Armor piercing: this is the effect that reduces the penalty of enemy armor (the yellow hp bar). On insanity it is a flat 50pt reduction. AP ammo and both types of piercing mods will stack linearly (simple addition) up to 100% armor piercing, in which case you will not lose any damage when shooting enemy armor.* Armor piercing only applies to the single weapon with the mods/ammo equipped.
2. Cover penetration: Cover penetration will also stack linearly from ammo and both types of piercing mods (piercing and high velocity barrels). However, if you notice ammo and mods have different penalties for shooting through cover. The game will use the smallest penalty from whatever piercing mods you have on the weapon. In SP this isn't a big deal since AP Ammo has a 50% damage penalty when shooting through cover, while it does matter somewhat in MP because the AP ammo consumable has a 0% penalty when shooting through cover.
*Armor weakening is applied from Cryo Ammo, Warp Ammo, and some powers (eg Warp or Cryo Blast). Armor weakening will temporarily allow any weapons that are shooting the target to have a reduced armor penalty for the duration of the effect. Eg. Shepard has Warp Ammo on his weapon, but Liara and Garrus do not. If Shepard is shooting the target, both Liara and Garrus will see a reduced armor penalty.
Armor piercing and armor weakening do not stack with simple addition. The armor damage reduction portion of the damage formula looks like this on Insanity (slightly simplified):
WeaponDamage - 50*[1-Sum(ArmorPiercing)]*[1-Sum(ArmorWeakening)]
So for 50% Armor Piercing and 25% Armor Weakening, it would look like this:
50*[1-0.5][1-0.25]
50*(0.5)(0.75)
Armor Damage Reduction = 18.75
If they were simply added the penalty would only be 12.5
AP ammo and the Piercing mod both apply two effects, which stack differently.
1. Armor piercing: this is the effect that reduces the penalty of enemy armor (the yellow hp bar). On insanity it is a flat 50pt reduction. AP ammo and both types of piercing mods will stack linearly (simple addition) up to 100% armor piercing, in which case you will not lose any damage when shooting enemy armor.* Armor piercing only applies to the single weapon with the mods/ammo equipped.
2. Cover penetration: Cover penetration will also stack linearly from ammo and both types of piercing mods (piercing and high velocity barrels). However, if you notice ammo and mods have different penalties for shooting through cover. The game will use the smallest penalty from whatever piercing mods you have on the weapon. In SP this isn't a big deal since AP Ammo has a 50% damage penalty when shooting through cover, while it does matter somewhat in MP because the AP ammo consumable has a 0% penalty when shooting through cover.
*Armor weakening is applied from Cryo Ammo, Warp Ammo, and some powers (eg Warp or Cryo Blast). Armor weakening will temporarily allow any weapons that are shooting the target to have a reduced armor penalty for the duration of the effect. Eg. Shepard has Warp Ammo on his weapon, but Liara and Garrus do not. If Shepard is shooting the target, both Liara and Garrus will see a reduced armor penalty.
Armor piercing and armor weakening do not stack with simple addition. The armor damage reduction portion of the damage formula looks like this on Insanity (slightly simplified):
WeaponDamage - 50*[1-Sum(ArmorPiercing)]*[1-Sum(ArmorWeakening)]
So for 50% Armor Piercing and 25% Armor Weakening, it would look like this:
50*[1-0.5][1-0.25]
50*(0.5)(0.75)
Armor Damage Reduction = 18.75
If they were simply added the penalty would only be 12.5
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#3
Posté 07 octobre 2013 - 01:25
cap and gown
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Are you saying that if a weapon does less than 50 damage it will have no effect on an armored target unless you have AP ammo and/or a piercing mod?
#4
Posté 07 octobre 2013 - 02:23
capn233
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I didn't mention it, but minimum damage is 5 per shot.cap and gown wrote...
Are you saying that if a weapon does less than 50 damage it will have no effect on an armored target unless you have AP ammo and/or a piercing mod?
Modifié par capn233, 07 octobre 2013 - 02:24 .
#5
Posté 09 octobre 2013 - 01:59
cap and gown
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Ok, here's another question:
In your formula, where it has Sum(Armor Weakening), does that mean the sum of all debuffs? For instance, Warp with the Pierce evolution should debuff armor 50%. AP ammo also debuffs by 50%. So if I Warp with pierce evolution and use AP ammo is that a 100% debuff, in other words no damage reduction?
In your formula, where it has Sum(Armor Weakening), does that mean the sum of all debuffs? For instance, Warp with the Pierce evolution should debuff armor 50%. AP ammo also debuffs by 50%. So if I Warp with pierce evolution and use AP ammo is that a 100% debuff, in other words no damage reduction?
Modifié par cap and gown, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:00 .
#6
Posté 09 octobre 2013 - 02:39
capn233
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Neither is really a debuff.
Armor weakening and Armor Piercing are separate effects, that is why there is sum for each individually.
If you have 50% Armor Piercing from AP Ammo, and 50% Armor Weakening from Warp, then it looks like this:
50*(1-0.5)(1-0.5) = 12.5 reduction from armor per shot.
Another example. Assume AR Piercing I (25% piercing), AP Ammo I (50% piercing), and target hit by Warp w/ Pierce (50% weakening):
50*[1-sum(piercing)]*[1-sum(weakening)]
50*[(1 - (0.25+0.5)]*[1-0.5] = 50*(1-0.75)(1-0.5) = 50*0.25*0.5 = 6.25
The piercing section only had the sum from the piercing mod and AP ammo, while the weakening section had the weakening from Warp. We had 75% total Armor Piercing and 50% total Armor Weakening.
Armor weakening and Armor Piercing are separate effects, that is why there is sum for each individually.
If you have 50% Armor Piercing from AP Ammo, and 50% Armor Weakening from Warp, then it looks like this:
50*(1-0.5)(1-0.5) = 12.5 reduction from armor per shot.
Another example. Assume AR Piercing I (25% piercing), AP Ammo I (50% piercing), and target hit by Warp w/ Pierce (50% weakening):
50*[1-sum(piercing)]*[1-sum(weakening)]
50*[(1 - (0.25+0.5)]*[1-0.5] = 50*(1-0.75)(1-0.5) = 50*0.25*0.5 = 6.25
The piercing section only had the sum from the piercing mod and AP ammo, while the weakening section had the weakening from Warp. We had 75% total Armor Piercing and 50% total Armor Weakening.
Modifié par capn233, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:40 .
#7
Posté 09 octobre 2013 - 12:16
cap and gown
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Not sure I follow. AP ammo doesn't have a piercing component. It has an armor effectiveness component (-50%). I thought that might be the same as armor weakening.
#8
Posté 09 octobre 2013 - 02:33
capn233
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From my first post:cap and gown wrote...
Not sure I follow. AP ammo doesn't have a piercing component. It has an armor effectiveness component (-50%). I thought that might be the same as armor weakening.
capn233 wrote...
AP ammo and the Piercing mod both apply two effects, which stack differently.
1. Armor piercing: this is the effect that reduces the penalty of enemy armor (the yellow hp bar). On insanity it is a flat 50pt reduction. AP ammo and both types of piercing mods will stack linearly (simple addition) up to 100% armor piercing, in which case you will not lose any damage when shooting enemy armor.* Armor piercing only applies to the single weapon with the mods/ammo equipped.
Armor Piercing Ammo absolutely has the piercing effect. The armor piercing mechanic in Mass Effect 3 is the effect that reduces the armor penalty for a single weapon that has AP Ammo, a Piercing mod, or a High Velocity Barrel equipped. This effect reduces the armor penalty only for the single weapon that has the ammo or mod equipped. It does not matter that the power screen says "armor effectiveness," this is the armor piercing effect.
You can also read essentially the same thing here from the devs if you want, albeit in less detail: Gameplay Data and Mechanics
Modifié par capn233, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:33 .
#9
Posté 18 octobre 2013 - 01:03
cap and gown
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Another follow-up question:
If armor reduces the damage of a weapon by a flat 50 points (insanity) then it seems like an extended barrel is actually a better choice if the additional damage is greater than 50. For instance, the Suppressor has a base damage rating of something like 383. A pistol extended barrel V increases this by 25%, or 95 points. So it would seem that the extended barrel is actually a better choice than a piercing mod. Unless there is some other factor I am not aware of? Comments?
If armor reduces the damage of a weapon by a flat 50 points (insanity) then it seems like an extended barrel is actually a better choice if the additional damage is greater than 50. For instance, the Suppressor has a base damage rating of something like 383. A pistol extended barrel V increases this by 25%, or 95 points. So it would seem that the extended barrel is actually a better choice than a piercing mod. Unless there is some other factor I am not aware of? Comments?
Modifié par cap and gown, 18 octobre 2013 - 01:05 .
#10
Posté 18 octobre 2013 - 02:14
capn233
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More or less. Someone did a post in the multiplayer forum a long time ago comparing Extended Barrel with Piercing mod on all weapons. If you have high enough base damage, then yes the Extended Barrel might make more sense from a pure armor damage point of view, and you have more damage to all protections.
The two things about that to consider though is that you won't have cover penetration that way, and that since every gun has 2 mod slots you can run both if you want.
The two things about that to consider though is that you won't have cover penetration that way, and that since every gun has 2 mod slots you can run both if you want.
