132 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

The reason that most Qunari seem stoic and aloof to the rest of Thedas, is because the Qunari are ashamed. A QUnari highly values mastery, in particular mastery of the self, and as such their lacking mastery of the common tongue of Thedas, is a point of shame for the Qunari, which leads them to talk very little and be rather direct whenever they do speak. Qunari amongst themselves, would be far more relaxed.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 octobre 2013 - 02:25 .

[Navasha]

Ok.. let me ask this question then before I head out for the day.

In our world, economies (productivity, the movement of goods, services, and commodities) have only successfully relied on either greed or fear. Reward or punishment, or some combination of the two. Money is used as a vehicle to allow individuals choice in how they "spend" their productivity so that they can prioritize their efforts into goods and services that they choose.

So what motivates the Qunari to be productive in their everyday life? On the surface, the answer seems to be service and duty to the Qun as a "reward". Exile (Tal-Vashoth), loss of self(qamek) as punishment. Fear? What happens exactly if a Qunari worker fails to meet their quota? I can only imagine it must be a greatly fear-inducing consequence.

What happens exactly if there are wants or needs of an individual that are not met by the Qun? Without a currency, there is no way for an individual to prioritize certain needs or wants and must simply accept whatever the Qun is willing to provide.

I think many people don't consider these kinds of questions and make Qunari life a "grass is always greener" type scenario. I tend to see a lot of people think that "equality" means that everyone lives a wonderful life regardless of how much effort they are willing to contribute to society. This is ultimately why all collectivist societies fail. Eventually everyone wants to be receiving more than they contribute.

So what does everyone imagine motivates individual Qunari to produce goods and services? Is it as simple as conditioning people to believe in their religion?

Also, what happens in Qunari society should their be a drought or really poor harvest? What if there is not enough food to go around. Who decides who gets fed and who does not? Do those who are chosen to die simply understand that it is a need of the Qun and accept their fate?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Navasha wrote...

Ok.. let me ask this question then before I head out for the day.

In our world, economies (productivity, the movement of goods, services, and commodities) have only successfully relied on either greed or fear. Reward or punishment, or some combination of the two. Money is used as a vehicle to allow individuals choice in how they "spend" their productivity so that they can prioritize their efforts into goods and services that they choose.

So what motivates the Qunari to be productive in their everyday life? On the surface, the answer seems to be service and duty to the Qun as a "reward". Exile (Tal-Vashoth), loss of self(qamek) as punishment. Fear? What happens exactly if a Qunari worker fails to meet their quota? I can only imagine it must be a greatly fear-inducing consequence.

What happens exactly if there are wants or needs of an individual that are not met by the Qun? Without a currency, there is no way for an individual to prioritize certain needs or wants and must simply accept whatever the Qun is willing to provide.

I think many people don't consider these kinds of questions and make Qunari life a "grass is always greener" type scenario. I tend to see a lot of people think that "equality" means that everyone lives a wonderful life regardless of how much effort they are willing to contribute to society. This is ultimately why all collectivist societies fail. Eventually everyone wants to be receiving more than they contribute.

So what does everyone imagine motivates individual Qunari to produce goods and services? Is it as simple as conditioning people to believe in their religion?

Also, what happens in Qunari society should their be a drought or really poor harvest? What if there is not enough food to go around. Who decides who gets fed and who does not? Do those who are chosen to die simply understand that it is a need of the Qun and accept their fate?

In our world, we have a huge focus on the value of the self. This is what drives us, the lust for more, and to improve OUR lot. This is bred in us from a very early age, we don't see the value of our work, we see the value of the reward for our work. At the end of the day, we have grown to become extremely self-serving.

A Qunari has a complete devaluation of the self. They see themselves as nothing but a part of the whole. A single cell within a giant organism, if you will. This single cell is dependant on the survival of the organism for its own survival, and thus must do its part for this goal. They therefore see the value of their work, and not in the reward.

It all comes down to the values society imparts on its inhabitants. The Qunari are no more "brainwashed" than you and I are, to accept the values and norms of society.

But do remember, there is such a thing as ambition and advancement in the Qun, but it is based on meritocratic ideals, and not influence through birth or money. A field worker in the Qun, might be motivated to give his best at the job, for the hope of advancement. But ideally a Qunari would be happy in his place, and would accept a promotion only because he was asked to, and not because he particularly wanted it.
Qunari has also done away with the whole "family unit", probably in an effort to eliminate the amount of persons you would place above society. Most of us would stop at nothing to defend and/or help our family, but Qunari never knew our idea of family. Isntead they seek companionship in their co-workers.

I'd also imagine that the Qunari keeps stockpiles of resources, for the sole purpose of being able to outlast a bad harvest, or wartime, or any other kind of catastrophe. It would after all, be a very poor ideology if it buckled at the first sign of trouble. About who gets the rations, it is probably judged out for an individual basis of the crisis at hand. If it was a flood or earthquake for instance, I'd guess that the relief effort workers, would be prioritized, so that the QUnari can return to full functionality as soon as possible. But don't expect higher ranked members of QUnari society to recieve more, just because of their rank. The Triumvirate are die hard adherents of the Qun, and either of them would probably lay down their life, for even the lowliest of Qunari, if the Qun demanded it be so.

[Medhia Nox]

@Emperor: Which really makes me wonder about Sten becoming Arishok. It would seem to me that the Qunari would consider him to possess an unhealthy respect for his companions during his "Warden" time.

He doesn't show any of the terrified disposition of the Qunari we are shown in DA2 when it comes to mages. He talks freely with Wynne and Morrigan (and the Warden if mage).

I think he could be considered actual friends with Shale.

I will be curious, if any, what kind of changes Sten my bring to the Qunari.

Perhaps, though it would not matter for the PC, the beginning of Qunari Wardens?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, the only actual Bas-Saarebas candidate he comes across is Morrigan. Wynne is a trained Circle mages, therefore a mage which is attempted to be contained, and thus probably doesn't mean she poses the same threat as an actual Bas-Saarebas (mind you, she is still Bas, but would probably hold a different title to the Qunari). The Warden is a Warden, and therefore probably considered a Basalit-an, and also a Circle trained mage in this case. What Qunari seems to abhor is the idea of a free mage.
Which does leave Morrigan in question. But Sten was obviously not fond of her, neither was he as terrified of her, as we see the other Qunari be of Bas-Saarebas. I'd like to think that this is aprtly becasue he is part of the Bennesad, eyes of the Antaam, which means he would have to scout ahead, and "see things". In short he is expected to get down in the muck, and experience horrible things, so that he can report back on them.
I'd also like to think, that the Arvaarad we encounter, was a bit over-zealous, since any other Qunari we meet, does not jump to the same conclusions as he did, not even the Arishok.

I also have a standing wish of the Qunari accepting Grey Wardens as a role within the Qun. That someone would be born to hold back evil, is not a new concept to the QUnari, since they already got Arvaraad, which literally means just that. So I see it entirely possible, that teh QUnari would find a role, in which they let the Qunari leave, and become a Qunari Grey Warden, entirely plausible.

[Wulfram]

I don't find people accepting the "complete devaluation of the self" believable, not when we're also told that Qunari are basically people like you and me and not something resembling brainless automatons.

People are selfish.  That's fundamental to their nature.  Even if I accept that their "upbringing" can have a very big effect, bits and pieces are going to slip through.  People are going to find people attractive and want to sleep with them.  They're going to see an item not assigned to them and think "I want that".  They're going to look at their job in accountancy and think "this is boring, I want to be an artist/soldier/merchant/lion tamer".

And these aren't things that Qunari society can let slide.  Because if you do then you're going to get the merchant slipping a few extra cookies to the talmassran in return for getting to choose their mate and all the other little corruptions that would add up to a society that's not equal at all.  And because the building up of these frustrations can lead to genuine dissent.

So they'll need to have a strong mechanism for reporting and "correcting" outbreaks of egoism.  Which means the standard apparatus of the police state.  And your happy little working families are going to be tainted by the knowledge that if you make a slip then they'll have to report you so you can be corrected.

Modifié par Wulfram, 07 octobre 2013 - 04:40 .

[Usergnome]

Lets not forget that all those farmers are extremely good at what they do; if they hated it so much they weren't able to do well, they'd be placed somewhere else.

I love Nutrient paste, even though I don't call it that. I have a shake after every workout and its divine

And no "free time" or "Education" for anything outside their task. Well, I love that too. I'm in highschool now; please tell me why I need to write down how I feel about some fictional story about two people running around a make-belief world in order to advance through life. ITS USELESS.

I'd like the Qun I guess.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't find people accepting the "complete devaluation of the self" believable, not when we're also told that Qunari are basically people like you and me and not something resembling brainless automatons.

People are selfish.  That's fundamental to their nature.  Even if I accept that their "upbringing" can have a very big effect, bits and pieces are going to slip through.  People are going to find people attractive and want to sleep with them.  They're going to see an item not assigned to them and think "I want that".  They're going to look at their job in accountancy and think "this is boring, I want to be an artist/soldier/merchant/lion tamer".

And these aren't things that Qunari society can let slide.  Because if you do then you're going to get the merchant slipping a few extra cookies to the talmassran in return for getting to choose their mate and all the other little corruptions that would add up to a society that's not equal at all.  And because the building up of these frustrations can lead to genuine dissent.

So they'll need to have a strong mechanism for reporting and "correcting" outbreaks of egoism.  Which means the standard apparatus of the police state.  And your happy little working families are going to be tainted by the knowledge that if you make a slip then they'll have to report you so you can be corrected.

You are simply seving to illustrate the point that enviroment is everything.

In japan it was considered costumary to fall upon your own sword if you failed in your task, or brought dishonor to your family or master. It still is by a huge number of the elder generation. Only now through outside influence, is this custom fading out.

People are selfish only becasue they are bred to be selfish. We reward selfishness, and therefore it is considered a favorable trait. Even if we don't admit it. We have created our own "dog eat dog" world. The Qunari went the exactly opposite direction. The diametrical opposition of our ideas and values. That is why they appear so alien to most.

[Gwydden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You are simply seving to illustrate the point that enviroment is everything.

In japan it was considered costumary to fall upon your own sword if you failed in your task, or brought dishonor to your family or master. It still is by a huge number of the elder generation. Only now through outside influence, is this custom fading out.

People are selfish only becasue they are bred to be selfish. We reward selfishness, and therefore it is considered a favorable trait. Even if we don't admit it. We have created our own "dog eat dog" world. The Qunari went the exactly opposite direction. The diametrical opposition of our ideas and values. That is why they appear so alien to most.

There is still a biological side to selfishness to consider. Human beings in particular have very strongly ingrained in their genes the concept of every man for himself. In the case of our species, the survival of the individual is rather paramount for that of the species, and we don't usually adress it the other way around.

Qunari also have this. Otherwise, Tal'Vashoth wouldn't be so commonplace as they are and there wouldn't be citizens being reeducated for sleeping with each other.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gwydden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You are simply seving to illustrate the point that enviroment is everything.

In japan it was considered costumary to fall upon your own sword if you failed in your task, or brought dishonor to your family or master. It still is by a huge number of the elder generation. Only now through outside influence, is this custom fading out.

People are selfish only becasue they are bred to be selfish. We reward selfishness, and therefore it is considered a favorable trait. Even if we don't admit it. We have created our own "dog eat dog" world. The Qunari went the exactly opposite direction. The diametrical opposition of our ideas and values. That is why they appear so alien to most.

There is still a biological side to selfishness to consider. Human beings in particular have very strongly ingrained in their genes the concept of every man for himself. In the case of our species, the survival of the individual is rather paramount for that of the species, and we don't usually adress it the other way around.

Qunari also have this. Otherwise, Tal'Vashoth wouldn't be so commonplace as they are and there wouldn't be citizens being reeducated for sleeping with each other.

That isn't entirely correct. While we do have a genetic disposition towards selfish acts, we also have a strong genetic disposition towards compassion and of taking care of eachother. Generally speaking we have a rather common pack mentality genetically coded in us.
In recent years, the more individualistic part of our psyche has been cultivated, even borderline worshipped, and many of the qualities such individualism brings with is, is largely appluaded. But that is our cultures influencing our psyche. In the early years of humanity, it was the pack mentality that was cultivated. It had to be, because humanity could not survive on its own.
Through the ages, there have been a paradigm shift running in tandem with social, cultural and technological developments. But these shifts in psyche has been a result of culture, not nature.
Therefore, if it is possible to cultivate the individual in a person. Then it is also possible to cultivate the collectivist. It is all a matter of culture.

Also, do remember that Tal-Vasoth is basically just an equivalent to a run-of-the-mill brigand. An outcast of society. However, in the case of Qunari, these are always only outcasts by choice.
And we don't know what the exact punishment for sleeping together would be for QUnari. Or if there even is any. We know there are consequences to birthing a child outside the breeding program, but we aren't sure on what it is.
I'd also urge you to remember that no society is perfect, and that the Qun is no different. To demand that the Qunari have no dissenters is simply too unrealistic, and by the end of the day, an unfair demand.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 octobre 2013 - 05:36 .

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You are simply seving to illustrate the point that enviroment is everything.

In japan it was considered costumary to fall upon your own sword if you failed in your task, or brought dishonor to your family or master. It still is by a huge number of the elder generation. Only now through outside influence, is this custom fading out.

Suicide because of shame still exists.  In western societies, where our culture has decried it as a terrible sin for millenia, as well as in Japan.  The prevalence and acceptability varies, but the underlying psychology isn't very different.

That's not comparable with completely tossing out nature.

People are selfish only becasue they are bred to be selfish. We reward selfishness, and therefore it is considered a favorable trait. Even if we don't admit it. We have created our own "dog eat dog" world. The Qunari went the exactly opposite direction. The diametrical opposition of our ideas and values. That is why they appear so alien to most.

The seven deadly sins include greed, lust, gluttony and envy.  Holy men throughout history have preached against it.  We tried communism and greed and selfishness became only more obvious.  Our society is not one that's set up to encourage selfishness, it's one that's selfish because that's the only way human society can be because that's how humans are.

Modifié par Wulfram, 07 octobre 2013 - 05:49 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

All recorded societies in human history has placed a group of people above others. ALL societies. That alone breeds selfishness. Qunari society does not palce one individual, or a group for that matter, above the rest. Sure they do have the Triumvirate, but each member of the Triumvirate would lay down their life for any other Qunari, if the Qun asked it of them. There simply is NOTHING in Qunari society taht cultivates selfishness. There are no wages, since there is no money, there is no status, since no one is more important, there is nothing.
We as humans in the real world, have failed horribly at all attemtps at such society, because the leaders taht be, failed to realize these things and/or were unwilling to sacrifice them.

[Reznore57]

If we had a "selfish" gene , we just wouldn't be there.
Humans are very frail animals , we're not polar bears that can go F*** the world , I can go hunt alone and survive lalala.
We need food , warm , security etc...We need each others , it's as simple as that.
Money doesn't change that anyway , it just changes the way we see trade /sharing.

Beside the qun is not so different from Dalish.
I bet dalish do not use money , and pretty much everyone has a role (hunter , keeper , etc...)

No one bat an eye about that ...because they seem less rigid .

[EmperorSahlertz]

They are also Elves, and coincidentally many of the Qunari-bashers, also have a major hardon for Elves.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 octobre 2013 - 06:05 .

[Boycott Bioware]

I think their citizen life is much likely similar with Russia and China...maybe i am wrong...I never visit Russia and China before...

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All recorded societies in human history has placed a group of people above others. ALL societies.

Yep.  Think there might be a reason for that?  It's not like there haven't been societies that took equality as a goal.

That alone breeds selfishness. Qunari society does not palce one individual, or a group for that matter, above the rest. Sure they do have the Triumvirate, but each member of the Triumvirate would lay down their life for any other Qunari, if the Qun asked it of them. There simply is NOTHING in Qunari society taht cultivates selfishness. There are no wages, since there is no money, there is no status, since no one is more important, there is nothing.

There's needs and desires for items that are limited in supply - unless you want to go back to the flavourless mush view of Qunari life.  There's friendship and love.  There's anger and frustration.  There's a disparity in power.  There's desire for power in order to make the world better. 

We as humans in the real world, have failed horribly at all attemtps at such society, because the leaders taht be, failed to realize these things and/or were unwilling to sacrifice them.

We failed at all these attempts because we're human.  Unless you're saying that the Qunari are fundamentally unalike in psychology, they would fail too.  And if they are fundamentally dissimilar, they're not going to succeed in exporting that view.

That last possibility has a chance for interesting drama, but I don't think it's what Bioware are going for.

[Gwydden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That isn't entirely correct. While we do have a genetic disposition towards selfish acts, we also have a strong genetic disposition towards compassion and of taking care of eachother. Generally speaking we have a rather common pack mentality genetically coded in us.

I agree, but there's a difference between taking care of each other and giving up a considerable part of your freedom for an abstract whole.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
In recent years, the more individualistic part of our psyche has been cultivated, even borderline worshipped, and many of the qualities such individualism brings with is, is largely appluaded. But that is our cultures influencing our psyche. In the early years of humanity, it was the pack mentality that was cultivated. It had to be, because humanity could not survive on its own.
Through the ages, there have been a paradigm shift running in tandem with social, cultural and technological developments. But these shifts in psyche has been a result of culture, not nature.
Therefore, if it is possible to cultivate the individual in a person. Then it is also possible to cultivate the collectivist. It is all a matter of culture.

No arguing there.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Also, do remember that Tal-Vasoth is basically just an equivalent to a run-of-the-mill brigand. An outcast of society. However, in the case of Qunari, these are always only outcasts by choice.
And we don't know what the exact punishment for sleeping together would be for QUnari. Or if there even is any. We know there are consequences to birthing a child outside the breeding program, but we aren't sure on what it is.
I'd also urge you to remember that no society is perfect, and that the Qun is no different. To demand that the Qunari have no dissenters is simply too unrealistic, and by the end of the day, an unfair demand.

My point wasn't really "Qunari have dissidents, therefore they aren't that great a society". I'm aware peole are wildly different from each other and that every society will have people who condemn it. What I was trying to show is that Qunari don't have any more predisposition towards collectivism than humans do. They aren't less inherently selfish.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All recorded societies in human history has placed a group of people above others. ALL societies.

Yep.  Think there might be a reason for that?  It's not like there haven't been societies that took equality as a goal.

It all probably expanded upon hte invention of coinage. The one with the most value and power, became first King of mankind. Since then it was a downhill ride.
Are you trying to say that the inventions of coins, markets and value are natural evolution? Because that would be the only thing, which would make a Qunari society impossible. Otherwise it will ALWAYS come down to culture.
If pre-historic Qunari, never developed coinage, then there wouldn't have been created an economy the way we know it.
You are trying to push our own human history of development on to the Qunari, with no actual knowledge of how the Qunari developed. That is a logical fallacy.

Wulfram wrote...

That alone breeds selfishness. Qunari society does not palce one individual, or a group for that matter, above the rest. Sure they do have the Triumvirate, but each member of the Triumvirate would lay down their life for any other Qunari, if the Qun asked it of them. There simply is NOTHING in Qunari society taht cultivates selfishness. There are no wages, since there is no money, there is no status, since no one is more important, there is nothing.

There's needs and desires for items that are limited in supply - unless you want to go back to the flavourless mush view of Qunari life.  There's friendship and love.  There's anger and frustration.  There's a disparity in power.  There's desire for power in order to make the world better.  

Friendship and lvoe are two things the Qunari see very differently than we do. And a Qunari doesn't gain any sort of status from befriending the "right person", as we do. Nor do they love for the same reasons we do. They are completely alien to us on these points.

Wulfram wrote...

We as humans in the real world, have failed horribly at all attemtps at such society, because the leaders taht be, failed to realize these things and/or were unwilling to sacrifice them.

We failed at all these attempts because we're human.  Unless you're saying that the Qunari are fundamentally unalike in psychology, they would fail too.  And if they are fundamentally dissimilar, they're not going to succeed in exporting that view.

That last possibility has a chance for interesting drama, but I don't think it's what Bioware are going for.

Again, coinage, stock markets and all these kinds of things are NOT natural evolutions, they are cultural developments. All of which has severly impaired any future attempts at societies like these.
There isn't a single natural reason for why humans wouldn't be able to. As a matter of fact, our natural state of being, is highly communal. ALL the reasons we aren't able to live in such societies, are entirely cultural.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gwydden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That isn't entirely correct. While we do have a genetic disposition towards selfish acts, we also have a strong genetic disposition towards compassion and of taking care of eachother. Generally speaking we have a rather common pack mentality genetically coded in us.

I agree, but there's a difference between taking care of each other and giving up a considerable part of your freedom for an abstract whole.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
In recent years, the more individualistic part of our psyche has been cultivated, even borderline worshipped, and many of the qualities such individualism brings with is, is largely appluaded. But that is our cultures influencing our psyche. In the early years of humanity, it was the pack mentality that was cultivated. It had to be, because humanity could not survive on its own.
Through the ages, there have been a paradigm shift running in tandem with social, cultural and technological developments. But these shifts in psyche has been a result of culture, not nature.
Therefore, if it is possible to cultivate the individual in a person. Then it is also possible to cultivate the collectivist. It is all a matter of culture.

No arguing there.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Also, do remember that Tal-Vasoth is basically just an equivalent to a run-of-the-mill brigand. An outcast of society. However, in the case of Qunari, these are always only outcasts by choice.
And we don't know what the exact punishment for sleeping together would be for QUnari. Or if there even is any. We know there are consequences to birthing a child outside the breeding program, but we aren't sure on what it is.
I'd also urge you to remember that no society is perfect, and that the Qun is no different. To demand that the Qunari have no dissenters is simply too unrealistic, and by the end of the day, an unfair demand.

My point wasn't really "Qunari have dissidents, therefore they aren't that great a society". I'm aware peole are wildly different from each other and that every society will have people who condemn it. What I was trying to show is that Qunari don't have any more predisposition towards collectivism than humans do. They aren't less inherently selfish.

I agree with your assesment. However, we have to take into consideration how the Qunari society developed. Obviously they developed their culture in vastly differnet ways than we did ours. This has allowed them to create the Qunari society, the same way that our development has impaired ours.
We have to remember just how important cultural development is on matters like these. In short, huamns doesn't have any less predisposition towards collectivism than the Qunari do.

[Gwydden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Friendship and lvoe are two things the Qunari see very differently than we do. And a Qunari doesn't gain any sort of status from befriending the "right person", as we do. Nor do they love for the same reasons we do. They are completely alien to us on these points.

And you know this... how? I have seen nothing so far to prove that reasoning. For all we know (and evidence seem to suggest that) they act "alien" simply because they're interacting with outsiders who don't share or understand their way of life in a language they don't master. A similar example would be the dalish. Usually when you meet them in the game they're jerks, but if you go with the dalish background in Origins they're a bunch of sweethearts.

We don't have any indication of how the Qunari interact with each other when there are no outsiders looking, other than Sten's dream.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gwydden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Friendship and lvoe are two things the Qunari see very differently than we do. And a Qunari doesn't gain any sort of status from befriending the "right person", as we do. Nor do they love for the same reasons we do. They are completely alien to us on these points.

And you know this... how? I have seen nothing so far to prove that reasoning. For all we know (and evidence seem to suggest that) they act "alien" simply because they're interacting with outsiders who don't share or understand their way of life in a language they don't master. A similar example would be the dalish. Usually when you meet them in the game they're jerks, but if you go with the dalish background in Origins they're a bunch of sweethearts.

We don't have any indication of how the Qunari interact with each other when there are no outsiders looking, other than Sten's dream.

We can see that their entire mindset is alien, because they live in a society like the Qun, which holds entirely differnet ideas and values, to what we would see as essential to our lives. Their complete devotion to the whole instead of the self, is another indicator.
I also seem to recall an older post by Mary Kirby, about Qunari being far more relaxed amongst eachother, becase then they could speak more freely. Qunari place great value on mastery, especially mastery of the self, and thus failure to master the common tongue of Thedas, is a point of great shame to a Qunari, which is why they rarely talk, and when they do, their sentences are rather direct and spartan.

The Dalish are not nearly as alien as the Qunari, though they do approach the point. However, since Elven and Human culture developed in tandem and in close proximity, which would breed familiarity. The Qunari are relatively newcomers to Thedas, and as such understanding of them, will be limited.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It all probably expanded upon hte invention of coinage. The one with the most value and power, became first King of mankind. Since then it was a downhill ride.
Are you trying to say that the inventions of coins, markets and value are natural evolution? Because that would be the only thing, which would make a Qunari society impossible. Otherwise it will ALWAYS come down to culture.
If pre-historic Qunari, never developed coinage, then there wouldn't have been created an economy the way we know it.
You are trying to push our own human history of development on to the Qunari, with no actual knowledge of how the Qunari developed. That is a logical fallacy.

I think kings existed before currency, though I could be wrong.

I think the existence of some sort of barter is natural and unavoidable.  "I want X that you have" "I'll give to you in exchange for Y".  More details like currency aren't necessarily unavoidable but still likely just because it's so obviously useful.

Friendship and lvoe are two things the Qunari see very differently than we do. And a Qunari doesn't gain any sort of status from befriending the "right person", as we do. Nor do they love for the same reasons we do. They are completely alien to us on these points.

They still presumably want the best for their friends.  Which will still screw up Qunari society.

And of course the idea that they can totally rewrite these things is kinda questionable.

Again, coinage, stock markets and all these kinds of things are NOT natural evolutions, they are cultural developments. All of which has severly impaired any future attempts at societies like these.
There isn't a single natural reason for why humans wouldn't be able to. As a matter of fact, our natural state of being, is highly communal. ALL the reasons we aren't able to live in such societies, are entirely cultural.

There is a natural reason.  There's limited resources and we want some of them.  We're evolved to try to survive and compete and reproduce.  Sometimes through cooperation of course, but there's always going to be a crunch where selfishness comes out.  Not everything is nurture.

[Gwydden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We can see that their entire mindset is alien, because they live in a society like the Qun, which holds entirely differnet ideas and values, to what we would see as essential to our lives. Their complete devotion to the whole instead of the self, is another indicator.
I also seem to recall an older post by Mary Kirby, about Qunari being far more relaxed amongst eachother, becase then they could speak more freely. Qunari place great value on mastery, especially mastery of the self, and thus failure to master the common tongue of Thedas, is a point of great shame to a Qunari, which is why they rarely talk, and when they do, their sentences are rather direct and spartan.

The Dalish are not nearly as alien as the Qunari, though they do approach the point. However, since Elven and Human culture developed in tandem and in close proximity, which would breed familiarity. The Qunari are relatively newcomers to Thedas, and as such understanding of them, will be limited.

It seems most of our differences of opinion derive from the fact that I insist on making a distinction between culturally different and biologically different. Certainly, since they live in such a different societies, the qunari psyche must be different. But concepts such as love or friendship are fairly universal, and wildly different societies will have similar, though not identical, ways of expressing them.

That was the reason of my comment earlier, on there being qunari who were reeducated for having happy fun time unnauthorized. They do it, even if it goes against everything they've been tought, so they must not be so alien, in the biological sense, compared to the other races in Thedas after all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It all probably expanded upon hte invention of coinage. The one with the most value and power, became first King of mankind. Since then it was a downhill ride.
Are you trying to say that the inventions of coins, markets and value are natural evolution? Because that would be the only thing, which would make a Qunari society impossible. Otherwise it will ALWAYS come down to culture.
If pre-historic Qunari, never developed coinage, then there wouldn't have been created an economy the way we know it.
You are trying to push our own human history of development on to the Qunari, with no actual knowledge of how the Qunari developed. That is a logical fallacy.

I think kings existed before currency, though I could be wrong.

I think the existence of some sort of barter is natural and unavoidable.  "I want X that you have" "I'll give to you in exchange for Y".  More details like currency aren't necessarily unavoidable but still likely just because it's so obviously useful.

There certainly were chieftains of tribes and cities and such. However, I believe the earliest recorded kings were the Egyptian Pharaos. Kings back then would almost always be the one with the most pwoer and influence. Since currency had been developed at this time, this would require the King to amass vast wealth, so that he could extend and/or maintain his power and influence.
A chieftain would originally be the one who was physically most imposing, or had the cunning to outwit competition. These contest of the self, would later be rendered obsolete since you could buy yourself power.
And I don't disagree that a barter system and currency are great inventions. I merely disagree that they are somehow a requirement of society. They are only a  requirement of society as we know it, and since we ahve never known otherwise, we have a hard time imagining it.

Wulfram wrote...

Friendship and lvoe are two things the Qunari see very differently than we do. And a Qunari doesn't gain any sort of status from befriending the "right person", as we do. Nor do they love for the same reasons we do. They are completely alien to us on these points.

They still presumably want the best for their friends.  Which will still screw up Qunari society.

And of course the idea that they can totally rewrite these things is kinda questionable.

But wanting the best for their friends does not mean the same for a Qunari as it does for us. We would wish succes and greatness for our friends, becasue that would probably bring more income, thus leading to a better life. A Qunari wouldn't concern himself with material gain. he would merely want for his friends being healthy and happy.

Wulfram wrote...

Again, coinage, stock markets and all these kinds of things are NOT natural evolutions, they are cultural developments. All of which has severly impaired any future attempts at societies like these.
There isn't a single natural reason for why humans wouldn't be able to. As a matter of fact, our natural state of being, is highly communal. ALL the reasons we aren't able to live in such societies, are entirely cultural.

There is a natural reason.  There's limited resources and we want some of them.  We're evolved to try to survive and compete and reproduce.  Sometimes through cooperation of course, but there's always going to be a crunch where selfishness comes out.  Not everything is nurture.

The thing is in Qunari society, that what supplies there are, are rationed out. No one recieves a bigger slice of the cake than his peers. So jealousy wouldn't arise between two farmhands. Also a Qunari is conditioned to rise above such petty desires, and control it. Something we aren't. We are conditioned to strive for more, even if we don't need it.

Gwydden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
We can see that their entire mindset is alien, because they live in a society like the Qun, which holds entirely differnet ideas and values, to what we would see as essential to our lives. Their complete devotion to the whole instead of the self, is another indicator.
I also seem to recall an older post by Mary Kirby, about Qunari being far more relaxed amongst eachother, becase then they could speak more freely. Qunari place great value on mastery, especially mastery of the self, and thus failure to master the common tongue of Thedas, is a point of great shame to a Qunari, which is why they rarely talk, and when they do, their sentences are rather direct and spartan.

The Dalish are not nearly as alien as the Qunari, though they do approach the point. However, since Elven and Human culture developed in tandem and in close proximity, which would breed familiarity. The Qunari are relatively newcomers to Thedas, and as such understanding of them, will be limited.

It seems most of our differences of opinion derive from the fact that I insist on making a distinction between culturally different and biologically different. Certainly, since they live in such a different societies, the qunari psyche must be different. But concepts such as love or friendship are fairly universal, and wildly different societies will have similar, though not identical, ways of expressing them.

That was the reason of my comment earlier, on there being qunari who were reeducated for having happy fun time unnauthorized. They do it, even if it goes against everything they've been tought, so they must not be so alien, in the biological sense, compared to the other races in Thedas after all.

Indeed. I'd just like to point out that the ideas of friendship and courtship also change vastly between cultures. In ancient greece for instance, it wouldn't be uncommon for a younger man having a sexual relationship with an odler man, the original "platonic relationship", for the sole reason of learning through experience. Nowaday that would be considered a bit bizare and extreme. Not the sexual relationship between two men, but rather the fact the these two men, claim to be entirely heterosexual, and only doing this as a part of "growing up".
So my conclusion is, that even though the desire for intimacy is universally present, our ways of displaying them, valuing them and so on and so forth, vary widely culturally.
I also have no doubt the Qunari have biological urges. However, Qunari values self-control so extremely high, that to succumb to them, would bring much shame to the Qunari in question, and would be viewed as an utter failure. I'd also like to point out, that we only know that multiplying outside the breeding program is punished in some capacity. We don't know wether or not sexual relations are. However, succumbing to desires of the flesh, would probably be frowned upon by the general Qunari population.

[Gwydden]

Wulfram wrote...
There is a natural reason.  There's limited resources and we want some of them.  We're evolved to try to survive and compete and reproduce.  Sometimes through cooperation of course, but there's always going to be a crunch where selfishness comes out.  Not everything is nurture.

The world has seen muslims who do suicide attacks without hesitation. It has seen priests make vows of chastity and poverty and keeping them their entire lifes. It's seen samurais killing themselves for failure. It's seen a man living in a barrel his entire life despite being promised as much luxury as he desired. This and so many other things are actually against the basic instincts of survival, reproduction and self advancement. Culture seems to have a greater impact in human psyche than some would admit.