132 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Navasha wrote...
This is my take as well.   It was a sloth demon.   The dreams it tries to make for everyone are based on that viewpoint.   Take it easy... be lazy, be content. This viewpoint is so contrary to Sten's conditioning that it is simply unbelievable to him. Since the ONLY time we have seen Qunari follower acting jovial or "normal" is in Sten's demon-conceived dream, which even he himself found completely contrived doesn't lend much credence to them living a joyful life.

Evidently you did not watch the scene I provided on page one.

Although aware that it was an illusion of the Fade Sten was initially content being with his brothers. Given his contempt for non-Qunari behaviour he would not be content to be with his brothers unless they were acting like 'true' Qunari.

In our world, economies have only successfully relied on either greed or fear.

False.

So what motivates the Qunari to be productive in their everyday life?

The physical benefits of the Qun.

[David7204]

Navasha wrote...

Money is used as a vehicle to allow individuals choice in how they "spend" their productivity so that they can prioritize their efforts into goods and services that they choose.

This is entirely wrong.

It's completely possible to have a society where people can choose how their efforts translate into good and services without money. Inefficent, but possible.

Modifié par David7204, 08 octobre 2013 - 08:59 .

[Navasha]

GodWood wrote...

Evidently you did not watch the scene I provided on page one.

Although aware that it was an illusion of the Fade Sten was initially content being with his brothers. Given his contempt for non-Qunari behaviour he would not be content to be with his brothers unless they were acting like 'true' Qunari.

Your clip does not include the dialog option "So this is what Qunari are like?"   to which Sten says. "Not really"

So clearly, it isn't an accurate depiction of Qunari from Stens own admission.

In our world, economies have only successfully relied on either greed or fear.

False.

Um... care to provide ANY example to back up your statement?   Every SUCCESSFUL ecomomy on Earth has always run on Reward(usually in the form of monetary compensation) or Punishment(Gulags, slavery, fear of starvation).    In very small groups you might have some built on 'faith', however, most religions also have their own built in system of promises similar to reward/punishment (ex. afterlife/hell/karma) .   If you have a different example, please share it as I would be most interested to hear of it.

So what motivates the Qunari to be productive in their everyday life?

The physical benefits of the Qun.

Again... a little bit of explanation here would go a long way.   Physical benefits?

[Navasha]

David7204 wrote...

Navasha wrote...

Money is used as a vehicle to allow individuals choice in how they "spend" their productivity so that they can prioritize their efforts into goods and services that they choose.

This is entirely wrong.

It's completely possible to have a society where people can choose how their efforts translate into good and services without money. Inefficent, but possible.

Currency is nothing more than a tool.  An invention like any other with the sole purpose of making lives easier.  
I assume you are talking about a direct barter system.    However, if you are a pig farmer.   The act of catching a pig hauling it into town and trading it to the furniture maker for your new couch, who then has to take the pig to his landlord to trade for his rent, who then finally takes it to the butcher to trade for a couple dozen steaks is pretty inefficient.

Currency was an invention to end the need to carry around the actual goods and trade them directly and prevent a lot of needless trading to get the "pig" in my example to a place where it can finally be useful. 

We actually do still use a limited barter system even in modern countries for various reasons.    For instance, a dentist might give free checkups/cleanings to the owner of a lawn maintenance company in exchange for free lawn mowing service.     That kind of stuff does still happen as it greatly benefits both parties. 

[GodWood]

Navasha wrote...
Your clip does not include the dialog option "So this is what Qunari are like?"   to which Sten says. "Not really"

So clearly, it isn't an accurate depiction of Qunari from Stens own admission.

And yet he says "It's a dream, but it's a good dream". Something he would not say unless they were like his brothers.

His "Not really" could refer to any number of things.

Um... care to provide ANY example to back up your statement?   Every SUCCESSFUL ecomomy on Earth has always run on Reward

Rewards =/= greed.

Greed is a desire for excessively more than one needs.

or Punishment(Gulags, slavery, fear of starvation)

Fear of starvation/the need to survive =/= punishment.

It is wise to be precise with your words.

If you have a different example, please share it as I would be most interested to hear of it.

Hunter/Gatherer societies. Communes.

Again... a little bit of explanation here would go a long way.   Physical benefits?

The material benefits of being part of the Qun. The guarantee of food, shelter and presumably medical treatment.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 octobre 2013 - 12:52 .

[Navasha]

GodWood wrote..

His "Not really" could refer to any number of things.

For me, the dream (fashioned by a demon) is poor quality evidence as to the real state of Qunari life.   We have seen no other examples from actual Qunari yet that would back that up.

If you have a different example, please share it as I would be most interested to hear of it.

Hunter/Gatherer societies. Communes.

Both of which tend to be relatively small in size.   They don't scale well to the scope of an entire civilization.   The more people, the more varied the needs.    The more people the greater the need for specialization.   A small group of 20 people can allow for everyone to spend some of their time gathering food, fixing dwellings, seeing to very basic needs of everyone.    As a population grows, you need 'specialists' like farmers, who focus on food production for more than just themselves.     The greater a population grows, the more need to motivate individuals to produce for the community and not just become a sink for community services. 

Again... a little bit of explanation here would go a long way.   Physical benefits?

The material benefits of being part of the Qun. The guarantee of food, shelter and presumably medical treatment.

Gotcha.   I understand what you were saying now.   I will agree that the Qun does certainly offer more stability for basic necessities of life.    However, I will also contend that the price for that stability is far too high in my opinion.  


Still wondering a few things.   I realize that some of these there is likely no answer known to us at this point.  Anyone know what happens to a Qunari who doesn't fulfill their quota or otherwise meet the expectations of their role?    Are they simply cast out of the Qun?  continually re-educated until they can perform to expectations?

[Xilizhra]

We do know that multiple qunari soldiers with each other, in DA2, were by all appearances extremely dour.

[GodWood]

Navasha wrote...
For me, the dream (fashioned by a demon) is poor quality evidence as to the real state of Qunari life.   We have seen no other examples from actual Qunari yet that would back that up.

Admittedly a contradictory scene. I merely have chosen to take it at face value as that is what makes the most sense within Sten's character.

Both of which tend to be relatively small in size.

Irrelevant to determining their success.

Gotcha.   I understand what you were saying now.   I will agree that the Qun does certainly offer more stability for basic necessities of life. However, I will also contend that the price for that stability is far too high in my opinion. 

Indeed. It is this question that makes the Qunari culture one of the DA franchise's strong points.

For the people of Thedas I'm confident that the guarantee of food, shelter, medical treatment and safety is more than worth the supposed liberties they'd have in the neighbouring feudal societies.

[Xilizhra]

For the people of Thedas I'm confident that the guarantee of food, shelter, medical treatment and safety is more than worth the supposed liberties they'd have in the neighbouring feudal societies.

Strange, then, how so many died rather than convert.

[Beerfish]

- Get up in the morning and wash my horns.
- Go to the Baker and get some bread
- Go to the cheese maker to get some cheese.
- Go to the coffee maker to get coffee.
- Go to the Qunari milk man to get some milk.
- Have breakfast.
- Spot a human, tell him his whole race is dumb and make a series of one words responses when he asks why.
- Go to the dog food maker to get some dog food.
- Feed dog.
- Go for a walk and berate some human for his lifestyle and what he is wearing.
- Go to work in my assigned field of expertise that being cow dung shoveler which I showed an early aptitude for.
- Berate my human coworker for not understanding the Qun.
- Go to the tea maker and then back to the milk man.
- Berate a human on the way back to work for their worthless lifestyle and corrupt existence.
- Shovel dung
- Lunchtime!

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
Strange, then, how so many died rather than convert.

Source?

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Strange, then, how so many died rather than convert.

Source?

http://dragonage.wik..._Occupied_North

"Stories of Qunari occupation vary greatly. It is said they dismantled
families and sent captives to "learning camps" for indoctrination into
their religion. Those who refused to cooperate disappeared to mines or
construction camps."

"Thankfully, a world that had repelled four Blights would not easily bow to a foreign aggressor. And so the Exalted Marches began."

"The Qunari armies lacked the sheer numbers of humanity.
So many were slain at Marnas Pell, on both sides, that the Veil is said
to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless
corpses."

The wiki on the qunari wars also states that there were numerous local uprisings at the beginning of the war, though the source of that isn't stated.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

For the people of Thedas I'm confident that the guarantee of food, shelter, medical treatment and safety is more than worth the supposed liberties they'd have in the neighbouring feudal societies.

Strange, then, how so many died rather than convert.

Many people converted happily, and even refused to convert back to the Andrastian faith. Get you damn facts straight. It was the Chantry who commited the genocide against the Qunari, and created the mass graves in Rivain.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 08 octobre 2013 - 02:13 .

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

For the people of Thedas I'm confident that the guarantee of food, shelter, medical treatment and safety is more than worth the supposed liberties they'd have in the neighbouring feudal societies.

Strange, then, how so many died rather than convert.

Many people converted happily, and even refused to convert back to the Andrastian faith. Get you damn facts straight. It was the Chantry who commited the genocide against the Qunari, and created the mass graves in Rivain.

Many did. Many others did not, and were either murdered or mindraped and enslaved.

Also, why in the hell do you keep bringing up the Chantry's genocide as though I was somehow in favor of the Chantry? Do you even remember who I am?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 octobre 2013 - 02:16 .

[Wulfram]

GodWood wrote...

Gotcha.   I understand what you were saying now.   I will agree that the Qun does certainly offer more stability for basic necessities of life. However, I will also contend that the price for that stability is far too high in my opinion. 

Indeed. It is this question that makes the Qunari culture one of the DA franchise's strong points.

"Is this impossible nonsense society with all difficulties handwaved away better than this really crappy society?" doesn't strike me as an interesting or valuable question.

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 octobre 2013 - 02:20 .

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

You know, my friends. My favorite irony in this thread is that the person decrying mindrape has a Morinth avatar.

I mourn her lost potential.

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
snip

Thanks.

Evidently the minority of peasantry that rebelled did not know what was in their best interests.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 octobre 2013 - 02:23 .

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
snip

Thanks.

Evidently the minority of peasantry that rebelled did not know what was in their best interests.

Well, there's the thing: they could choose what they saw to be in their best interests. And I don't think it was a minority anyway, since the qunari took more territory than just Rivain, but only Rivain has a qunari population remaining, and even there I believe it's a minority.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 octobre 2013 - 02:25 .

[Navasha]

GodWood wrote...

Evidently the minority of peasantry that rebelled did not know what was in their best interests.

Actually, its precisely that viewpoint right there that justifies a lot of the hatred for Qunari.   The whole concept that some other person or group has a better notion of what is "best" for an individual than that individual does for themselves.  

[GodWood]

Wulfram wrote...
"Is this impossible nonsense society with all difficulties handwaved away better than this really crappy society?" doesn't strike me as an interesting or valuable question.

I don't believe there's anything too fanatastical about Qunari society.

I will concede however that their portrayal has (strangely) been overwhelmingly positive. I do hope they can point out the flaws of there society in later games without quickly falling into the trap of "FREEDOM **** YEAH".

An easy shock tactic would be to show a non-kossith Qunari mage.

Navasha wrote...
Actually, its precisely that viewpoint right there that justifies a lot of the hatred for Qunari.   The whole concept that some other person or group has a better notion of what is "best" for an individual than that individual does for themselves.  

Such a mindset is not unique to the Qunari.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 octobre 2013 - 02:35 .

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, there's the thing: they could choose what they saw to be in their best interests. And I don't think it was a minority anyway, since the qunari took more territory than just Rivain, but only Rivain has a qunari population remaining, and even there I believe it's a minority.

Presumbably because they fled with the qunari, were killed by the chantry, or forcibly re-converted to the chantry

Or, shock of shocks, the qunari just weren't that popular.