122 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwydden]

Knight of Dane wrote...
Felicia Day didn't write the DLC, but it's her character.

Yeah, that. The thing is, when you have someone who's not part of the usual team decide a lot of stuff about a major character in a DLC... well, let's just say I'm not surprised so many have such a poor opinion of Tallis, and even the DLC.

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Leliana the bard is quite at odds - morally speaking - with Leliana the naive Chantry sister. She admits to deception and murder for what amounts to personal gain (though part of it was her relationship with Marjolane). 

Of course Leliana the bard is morally at odds with Leliana the chantry sister.  That's why she's very big on redemption in DA:O - she's looking for it herself.  Morrigan calls her out on this at one point.

I don't think it's just morality though. I used naivety as he word because it seems to be that being a bard is about a very pragmatic kind of manipulation that I think is very at odds with her lawful good portrayal in DA:O. 

[In Exile]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

In Exile wrote...

To me it always seemed like Leliana was playing you in DA:O to start. I totally think Bioware expanded her role in the sequel and wanted her romantic, somewhat naive personality to represent (a part of) who she was, but the way she talked about being able to be anything doe anyone and manipulating their feelings with love and affection quite easily always seemed to cast a shadow to me. 

Leliana the bard is quite at odds - morally speaking - with Leliana the naive Chantry sister. She admits to deception and murder for what amounts to personal gain (though part of it was her relationship with Marjolane). 

Eh. If she was just there to toy with the Warden, then why would she leave if she disagrees with the Warden too much? Isn't that kind of counter productive in a spy/seductress? Wouldn't she try and match her personality to whatever Warden you're playing? That is, if there's any reason to spy on the Warden in the first place. Which, there really isn't.

It would also seem a little pointless that she brings up her relationship with a romanced Warden at all in DA2 if it was all a scam.

I should be clear: I don't think leliana was playing the warden in the sense of being a plant like Morrigan. I mean that I think her persona is a bit of a an act more so than it is who she really is. Just like morrigan can like the Warden while being g dishonest at first about her interest, I think Leliana can quite like the Warden - and love the Warden - without being defined by this tru wuv way of seeing the world. 

[Gwydden]

In Exile wrote...
I don't think it's just morality though. I used naivety as he word because it seems to be that being a bard is about a very pragmatic kind of manipulation that I think is very at odds with her lawful good portrayal in DA:O. 

I've never really agreed with using the word naive to describe Leliana. She's older than she looks, she's been through a lot, and has more life experience than most companions in DAO, as well as one of the shadiest pasts. As a matter of fact, the only DA companion I would describe that way would be Merrill, and even then it would be more about her general behavious than about her personality or beliefs.

[Wulfram]

In Exile wrote...

I don't think it's just morality though. I used naivety as he word because it seems to be that being a bard is about a very pragmatic kind of manipulation that I think is very at odds with her lawful good portrayal in DA:O. 

Hmm, her naivety mostly seems to be about thinking well of the Chantry, or believing in redemption.  I don't know what else I'd count as actually naive.  And being a skilled manipulator doesn't exclude a certain amount of naivity.  I think she was a bard in part because she saw it as a fun game, which is in it's own way a naive attitude.  She only saw it as evil when she was on the receiving end.

IIRC she approves of playing a double game in Orzammar.  Or is that just when hardened?

I'd class her as chaotic good, not lawful.  With her loyalty to the Chantry being the exception, and that's more love and affection of something that gave her a second chance than actual approval of it's policies.

edit:

In Exile wrote...

I should be clear: I don't think leliana
was playing the warden in the sense of being a plant like Morrigan. I
mean that I think her persona is a bit of a an act more so than it is
who she really is. Just like morrigan can like the Warden while being g
dishonest at first about her interest, I think Leliana can quite like
the Warden - and love the Warden - without being defined by this tru wuv
way of seeing the world. 

I would say there's an element of artifice there, but that's because she's trying very hard to be a good person.  It's a constructed persona to an extent, but it's not a facade constructed for the Warden's benefit but who she is trying to be.

And the seeking of true love could be seen as a rejection of her bardic past.  Or if you want to put a darker spin on things, it could be seen as a repetition of her pattern with Marjolaine.

Modifié par Wulfram, 09 octobre 2013 - 11:06 .

[Angrywolves]

I think Tallis will be in npc if she's in the game at all.
And no more Mary Sue stuff, rotfl.
I don't think of Morrigan as a plant.
OGB aside, her presence gave the warden the best chance for success.
Some players believe Leliana was planted with the warden by the chantry.
Don't know if that's true.
Cassandra won't be as harsh in DAI as she seemed in Varric's interrogation .
I think she'll make a good companion .

[abnest]

Angrywolves wrote...

I think Tallis will be in npc if she's in the game at all.
And no more Mary Sue stuff, rotfl.
I don't think of Morrigan as a plant.
OGB aside, her presence gave the warden the best chance for success.
Some players believe Leliana was planted with the warden by the chantry.
Don't know if that's true.
Cassandra won't be as harsh in DAI as she seemed in Varric's interrogation .
I think she'll make a good companion .

I agree with everything you have said, and I share your optimism about Cassandra.

Also, for the record, as much as I adore Varric, and as charmed as I was from the moment he started talking, if I were in her place - interogating a prisoner of questionable morality who has taken it upon himself to make teasing comments rather than getting to the goddamn point while the world is falling to pieces even though he knows precisely the dangers of his predicament - I would have been pretty ****ing "harsh" with him too. And ultimately, she has shown herself to be compassionate and open minded. I for one am totally excited.

[Angrywolves]

I don't adore Varric but seems we're stuck with him. Cassandra's hand on Varric's shoulder after the massacre proves to me Cassandra has mellowed quite a bit or been retconned by Bioware into a softer more empathetic character.

[durasteel]

Reading what people post about Tallis, I wonder sometimes if I'm the only one who understands her character. People criticize her for deceiving Hawke, but she actually went out of her way to make sure Hawke got something out of the deal. People lambaste her for following the Qun, but how the hell would she not?

Tallis was a Tevinter slave, meaning she was nothing--she was a disposable thing. Worse, she was sold into slavery by her own parents. When she was freed by the Qunari, suddenly she found herself valued, respected for her abilities, and trusted with important jobs. In her experience, life within the Qun is absolutely superior to life outside of it. Still, her personality and nature do not conform easily, and she chafes under the structure and strictures of Qunari life.

There is always that conflict within Tallis, between a yearning for absolute freedom and a need to belong, to succeed, to earn and receive the respect of people that you respect in turn. I was totally able to relate to someone who has to do things as part of her job that she sometimes finds unappealing or even distasteful, and sometimes has to do what she thinks is right in defiance of her superiors. I also can totally understand the appeal of earning the position within Qunari society that matches her abilities, and the pride she feels at being Tallis.

Tallis provides perspective on the Qun and on Qunari culture that we never get from the Qunari themselves. We see them as either unquestioning adherents of the Qun or as Tal-Vashoth who have left it, but with Tallis we see someone who simultaneously craves the security of its structure while chafing under its restrictions, and we see the positives and negatives of that society superimposed on one another in that perspective.

Tallis is way too interesting a character for me to hate.

Modifié par durasteel, 25 novembre 2013 - 04:27 .

[leaguer of one]

Angrywolves wrote...

I don't adore Varric but seems we're stuck with him. Cassandra's hand on Varric's shoulder after the massacre proves to me Cassandra has mellowed quite a bit or been retconned by Bioware into a softer more empathetic character.

How does that say she;s mellowed abit. Just because she is hard as nails does not mean she is not emathetic.

[thats1evildude]

Interesting thoughts, durasteel.

[Angrywolves]

I wonder if Tallis is in the game if she'll still have Felicia Day's face ?

[Angrywolves]

cassandra wasn't empathetic in my opinion in DA2. shrugs.

[Fredward]

durasteel wrote...
Reading what people post about Tallis, I wonder sometimes if I'm the only one who understands her character. People criticize her for deceiving Hawke, but she actually went out of her way to make sure Hawke got something out of the deal. People lambaste her for following the Qun, but how the hell would she not?

Tallis was a Tevinter slave, meaning she was nothing--she was a disposable thing. Worse, she was sold into slavery by her own parents. When she was freed by the Qunari, suddenly she found herself valued, respected for her abilities, and trusted with important jobs. In her experience, life within the Qun is absolutely superior to life outside of it. Still, her personality and nature do not conform easily, and she chafes under the structure and strictures of Qunari life.

There is always that conflict within Tallis, between a yearning for absolute freedom and a need to belong, to succeed, to earn and receive the respect of people that you respect in turn. I was totally able to relate to someone who has to do things as part of her job that she sometimes finds unappealing or even distasteful, and sometimes has to do what she thinks is right in defiance of her superiors. I also can totally understand the appeal of earning the position within Qunari society that matches her abilities, and the pride she feels at being Tallis.

Tallis provides perspective on the Qun and on Qunari culture that we never get from the Qunari themselves. We see them as either unquestioning adherents of the Qun or as Tal-Vashoth who have left it, but with Tallis we see someone who simultaneously craves the security of its structure while chafing under its restrictions, and we see the positives and negatives of that society superimposed on one another in that perspective.

Tallis is way too interesting a character for me to hate.

You are being so silly. She is voiced by Day, her face is Day's AND she was written by Day! That means she must be a Mary Sue self insert! None of this layered nuance nonsense pls.

[durasteel]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
You are being so silly. She is voiced by Day, her face is Day's AND she was written by Day! That means she must be a Mary Sue self insert! None of this layered nuance nonsense pls.

Can't deny she was a Mary Sue, since she was a dual wield rogue with ranged attacks and super stealth plot armor. None of that changes the interesting bits of her character.

[In Exile]

durasteel wrote...

Reading what people post about Tallis, I wonder sometimes if I'm the only one who understands her character. People criticize her for deceiving Hawke, but she actually went out of her way to make sure Hawke got something out of the deal. People lambaste her for following the Qun, but how the hell would she not?

The problem is the mage side of things, which gets glossed over completely. In a game that focused a great deal on societal abuses of the mages, and especially having a mage Hawke, the entire interaction with Tallis is a little absurd. There's no "I'd like to have my tongue and my mouth not stitched up kthaxbye" option. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Tallis good character pff they tried paint her as "noble" and intelligent they failed horrible in first when she started bi*** after killing guard how she don't like killing after she slained 213 already and throwed knife at boy in redemption .I don't even mention that she allowed millions die for few qunari spies showes that she is fanatic that will
sacrifice everything for qun and don't make me laugh that she question qun she only don't have arguments but try protect qun in argument with hawke anyway.Then we have trying paint her as intelligent but they didn't make her intelligent only other characters retarded like hawke dumb to extreme in this dlc being nothing more than tallis dog with iq 65 do you want take list and save milions sorry but marry sue talis have sue armor and if you take that dialogue she just says "sorry but nope" and hawke just look on her like retarded doing nothing. 

Terrible character that should be not mentioned never again like star wars christmas special 

[TurretSyndrome]

In Exile wrote...
The problem is the mage side of things, which gets glossed over completely. In a game that focused a great deal on societal abuses of the mages, and especially having a mage Hawke, the entire interaction with Tallis is a little absurd. There's no "I'd like to have my tongue and my mouth not stitched up kthaxbye" option. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed how all of the dialogue sequences are made so they are convinient for Tallis. Even though there were a number of instances where we could give a solid answer to shut her up, we couldn't because there weren't any.

If one truly understood her character, one would know that it's a facade of a character, painted with the wanna be personality of it's creator. 

This is exactly why this woman shouldn't exist in any future games ever.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 25 novembre 2013 - 08:24 .

[Tested-Faythe]

Tallis is the best character ever conceived by bioware.

EDIT: Cullen sucks.

Modifié par Tested-Faythe, 25 novembre 2013 - 09:14 .

[durasteel]

TurretSyndrome wrote...
This is exactly why this woman shouldn't exist in any future games ever.

I would take her over Sebastian "In Andraste's holy name we pout" Vael any freakin' day.

[Angrywolves]

I feel we'll see Tallis in DAI but as an npc or an agent, not as a party member.

[Fredward]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
millions die for few qunari spies

What.