245 réponses à ce sujet

[Excella Gionne]

Steelcan wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

their new default autyo-dialogued alliance loving shep

Shepard never was a blank slate, and Bioware has made that abundantly clear in interviews. In particular, the anarchistic warlord you want to play is inconsistent with the back story of Shepard being an Alliance Marine. If you want to go play a slaver warlord, go play Fallout or something.

This kind of drivel response just irritates me.

Obviously he sn't a blank slate, but in ME1/2 there were a variety of viewpoints Shepard could take, pro-Cerberus, pro-Alliance, anti-Alien etc...

Those options are simply not present in ME3

ME2 is well written to make anyone feel pro-Cerberus, because they were the ones that were actually doing something while the Alliance and the Council were doing nothing about it. I know that they're still recovering from the attacks on the Citadel by Sovereign and the Geth, but still, if it involves your species, at least try to do somethign about it. Ashley and Kaidan don't really add much into trying to convince you that you were wrong by joining Cerberus. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I noticed a change in dialogue with the Citadel DLC. If you have that installed, every time someone mentions "while you were in lock up" you correct them with "relieved of duty" if you didn't do Arrival.

Still the "**** you've done..." scene is overdone.... well, shooting Joram Talid in cold blood probably was a bit over the edge and premeditated especially right in front of C-sec. Shepard should have been arrested right there. Yes, he was a corrupt politician, but that just shows how corrupt C-sec was.

And you were railroaded into joining Cerberus. Do you remember the "Shepard is going to die in ME2. You'll be able to play as Shepard for a little while, though." So they kill off Shepard, then do the Lazarus Project for the sole purpose of railroading you into Cerberus.

[David7204]

That is utter nonsense.

[KaiserShep]

I never quite understood the point of being able to kill Joram Talid. Crooked or not, it just seems like a crazy thing to do right in front of C-Sec with zero repercussions. It's worth it to see Kolyat's reaction though.

[The Night Mammoth]

David7204 wrote...

That is utter nonsense because... oh no, not again, why, it must be more than ten times the the part of David's post that explains things has gone missing. I'm starting to doubt whether bugs in the forum are the real cause.

[Seboist]

KaiserShep wrote...

I never quite understood the point of being able to kill Joram Talid. Crooked or not, it just seems like a crazy thing to do right in front of C-Sec with zero repercussions. It's worth it to see Kolyat's reaction though.

You speak as if that's the only thing with zero repercussions. If Shepard can get away with cutting off his superiors/the galactic council in a debriefing and shoot up a club in the galactic capital and potentially kill it's owner with no recourse, then he can pretty much get away with anything.

ME at it's core is a juvenile power fantasy.

[David7204]

Completely laughable, Seboist. I'm sorry if your life is so dreary that you assume anyone who hangs up on the Council must be doing it out a 'power fantasy.' You might find it cathartic to be able to talk back to an authority figure in a video game, but your silly projections of yourself sadly don't count for much. The childishly simple reality is that people do it because it's a video game and it's fun to mess around. 

Modifié par David7204, 11 octobre 2013 - 03:24 .

[KaiserShep]

Seboist wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I never quite understood the point of being able to kill Joram Talid. Crooked or not, it just seems like a crazy thing to do right in front of C-Sec with zero repercussions. It's worth it to see Kolyat's reaction though.

You speak as if that's the only thing with zero repercussions. If Shepard can get away with cutting off his superiors/the galactic council in a debriefing and shoot up a club in the galactic capital and potentially kill it's owner with no recourse, then he can pretty much get away with anything.

ME at it's core is a juvenile power fantasy.

I only mentioned this one alone because someone else did in this same thread. I'm sure there's plenty of other things throughout the series, but I can't remember them all off the top of my head. Honestly, I can't think of many that are quite as crazy as shooting Joram. Sure, hanging up on the council should be some sort of big political faux pas, and defending yourself against thugs who happened to turn a bar into a fortified gun nut paradise might get more than a brief reprimand, but that's nothing compared to shooting someone who is running for office on the Citadel.

I don't get why Mass Effect would be singled out as a "juvenile power fantasy", when some games are pretty much off the wall in terms of what you can do with zero repercussions. Whether or not the other games are crafted to take themselves seriously doesn't really change that.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 11 octobre 2013 - 03:45 .

[Massa FX]

Arrival disregards Shepard's Spectre status. Completely. ME3 acts as if Shepard needed Alliance approval on how she stopped the Reapers.

Her destroying the Battarian colony should not have been punishable by any entity. She was doing her job.

I'm disappointed in how the story devolved and the lore that was presented and hyped from ME1 to ME2 was ignored.

[silverexile17s]

Jukaga wrote...

erezike wrote...

Jukaga wrote...


Other than Hackett, no one even knows that Shepard blew up the relay if you did Arrival. 

there is your answer...

Why would Hackett and the Alliance brass tell the Batarians about it? LOL blew up one of your relay systems cause the reapers who we don't even acknowledge as being real were coming.

Actually, the Alliance would have had no choice but to say it was Shepard, for many reasons.
Reason #1 - An Alliance agent was captured in the system. That much will be on the batarians report (minus the fact that the world was a prison, in order to play the sympathy card for all it's worth). The report will say that the Alliance agent escaped custody and blew up the relay. If the Alliance doesn't put up Shepard, then the batarians will make a massive sh*tstorm about it until they do -- which Hackett and Anderson don't want, because it will distract from preperations for the Reapers.
Reason#2 - No one else is as convient a scapegoat as Shepard. Shepard's legally dead, and publically associated with Cerberus. On top of that, charging Shepard with this means even less people will believe the Commander's "imaginary stories" about the Reapers and Collectors, allowing them to contain the flow of information about the Reapers, and get the batarians off their backs by letting them know "we have the culprit."
Reason#3 - It gives the Alliance a convient reason to take Shepard into custody for questioning and debrief, and a perfect way to make sure Shepard is free of Cerberus. Sure it "just" costs the Commander every shread of his/her remaining repuattion and credibility in the galaxy, meaning no-one's going to believe you about Reapers now, but hey -- they can make sure Cerberus can't talk to you on the sly!  And that you can't spread the word about the Reapers and cause any embarressment to them!
.......<_<

Seriously, the Alliance Admiralty Board (those three admirals that got torched in the opening of ME3) are all selfish dicks. If there's one thing I hate in the galaxy, it's the g*d-damn politics getting in the way of doing my damn job. Still, in the end, what choice is left? Resist, and either the Alliance will go to war with the batarians covering you, or the Alliance will scapegoat you and let the entire galaxy call open season on you -- neither of which are good positions to fight the Reapers from.
It's a catch 22 of the worst possible kind.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 octobre 2013 - 05:20 .

[KaiserShep]

Not sure why it should make any difference if Shepard had ties to Cerberus or not, because in the end, an Alliance agent is busted out of prison, killing lots of guards in the process. Anyone would just assume that the Alliance was involved. The way I see it, the batarians don't have much reason to make any meaningful distinction between Cerberus and the Alliance from their perspective. They're both pretty much human-run military/political forces that act on behalf of the human race. It doesn't make much sense that the Alliance would have no choice but to place the blame on Shepard alone, because Shepard is still representative of all of humanity as their first Council Spectre.

As for the murky galactic politics, at least a lot of them got vaporized or harvested. Their sacrifice can be honored in the coming empire.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

That is utter nonsense.

That's just stupid.

[silverexile17s]

KaiserShep wrote...

Not sure why it should make any difference if Shepard had ties to Cerberus or not, because in the end, an Alliance agent is busted out of prison, killing lots of guards in the process. Anyone would just assume that the Alliance was involved. The way I see it, the batarians don't have much reason to make any meaningful distinction between Cerberus and the Alliance from their perspective. They're both pretty much human-run military/political forces that act on behalf of the human race. It doesn't make much sense that the Alliance would have no choice but to place the blame on Shepard alone, because Shepard is still representative of all of humanity as their first Council Spectre.

As for the murky galactic politics, at least a lot of them got vaporized or harvested. Their sacrifice can be honored in the coming empire.

It's a convient excuse to scapegoat Shepard -- they can say that Shepard  - a Cerberus agent - was involved in the Alpha Relay destruction and they'll get off scott clean. After all, it's no secret the Alliance hates Cerberus. If they're lucky, they can divert the entirety of the batarians's rage on Cerberus. Better then them holding a witch hunt and potentally going to war trying to find out who did it.
If "Arrival" was never played, then the Alliance and Council get paranoit about Shepard running around with no leash and forcibly bring the Commander in for debrief and "observation" (lock-up to prevent him/her blabbing about the Reapers to too many people).
Both outcomes see the Commander arrested for crimes against the galaxy and being stripped of what little cedibility he/she had left.
Either way, it's all about politics -- it's figuring out which stone will kill the most birds when thrown.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 octobre 2013 - 06:35 .

[KaiserShep]

Stupid space politics. At least the reapers destroy a lot of it.

[silverexile17s]

KaiserShep wrote...

Stupid space politics. At least the reapers destroy a lot of it.

Yeah, I guess there's that. As Garrus said: " There's nothing like the threat of imminate, painful death to get people motivated." Or something along those lines.

[Erez Kristal]

Jukaga wrote...

erezike wrote...

Jukaga wrote...


Other than Hackett, no one even knows that Shepard blew up the relay if you did Arrival. 

there is your answer...

Why would Hackett and the Alliance brass tell the Batarians about it? LOL blew up one of your relay systems cause the reapers who we don't even acknowledge as being real were coming.

 
the batarians already knew the alliance were behind the relay explosion and had plenty of proofs 

01/22/2011 - Batarian and Alliance Forces in Standoff in Skyllian Verge
“The galaxy is on high alert as starships belonging to the Earth Systems Alliance and Batarian Hegemony refuse to back down from a confrontation in the Skyllian Verge. The encounter began when a frigate from the batarian colony of Aratoht discovered an Alliance cruiser, the SSV Budapest, on patrol in the Bahak system. The Alliance claims the Budapest was chasing a pirate fleet that has been harassing human colonies in the Skyllian Verge, and that it was fully within its rights to travel through Bahak's space. The Batarian Hegemony has demanded the Alliance's immediate withdrawal from their colony's system. Three batarian cruisers stationed on Aratoht are now on their way to join the confrontation.”

SSV Budapest Retreats from Batarian Space
“The Alliance cruiser that sparked a standoff between the Earth Systems Alliance and Batarian Hegemony has retreated from the Bahak system. Hegemony officials claim to have found no trace of the pirate fleet the Alliance was allegedly pursuing when the SSV Budapest flew into the system. The Alliance maintains it was chasing pirates raiding human merchant vessels when it crossed into batarian space, but refuses to release any of its ships' logs. Despite this, Citadel observers say the Alliance's withdrawal has done enough to ease tensions. "The Hegemony knows the Alliance is attempting to save face," said one anonymous Citadel diplomat. "At this juncture, the humans' retreat from Aratoht [in the Bahak system] has gone from a diplomatic crisis to an embarrassment they want swept under the rug."”


Dr kenson also was caught transmitting a signal to alliance HQ, was captured and interrogated. she revealed all her and the alliance plans to the batarians.

The only way the alliance had hopes of avoiding war with the batarians and losing its status in the galaxy was if they find a proper scapte goat. cerberus&shepard were the perfect cannidate.  In the bottom line it doesnt matter if shepard did it or not. someone had to take the heat.

[Erez Kristal]

johnnythao89 wrote...



ME2 is well written to make anyone feel pro-Cerberus, because they were the ones that were actually doing something while the Alliance and the Council were doing nothing about it. I know that they're still recovering from the attacks on the Citadel by Sovereign and the Geth, but still, if it involves your species, at least try to do somethign about it. Ashley and Kaidan don't really add much into trying to convince you that you were wrong by joining Cerberus. 

this really depends on how far you think cerberus-alliance relations goes. 
Alliance is inept or cerberus is still part of the alliance. your pick.

[Erez Kristal]

[quote]Seboist wrote...

.[/quote]

You speak as if that's the only thing with zero repercussions. If Shepard can get away with cutting off his superiors/the galactic council in a debriefing and shoot up a club in the galactic capital and potentially kill it's owner with no recourse, then he can pretty much get away with anything.

[/quote] There is only one law in mass effect, In mass effect everyone are crooked and no one is innocent.. why do you think the council invented the spectres in the first place.
(and excuted all members of the league of the one)




[quote]Massa FX wrote...

Arrival disregards Shepard's Spectre status. Completely. ME3 acts as if Shepard needed Alliance approval on how she stopped the Reapers.

Her destroying the Battarian colony should not have been punishable by any entity. She was doing her job.

I'm disappointed in how the story devolved and the lore that was presented and hyped from ME1 to ME2 was ignored.

[/quote] Spectre status is only in use for you when you are serving the interests of the council... once you are out. 
They could easily strip it away from you. just ask your friend saren.


[quote]silverexile17s wrote...


It's a convient excuse to scapegoat Shepard -- they can say that Shepard  - a Cerberus agent - was involved in the Alpha Relay destruction and they'll get off scott clean. After all, it's no secret the Alliance hates Cerberus
[/quote]
Hate is a strong word. convenient is more suitable...

Modifié par erezike, 11 octobre 2013 - 10:34 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Massa FX wrote...

Arrival disregards Shepard's Spectre status. Completely. ME3 acts as if Shepard needed Alliance approval on how she stopped the Reapers.

Her destroying the Battarian colony should not have been punishable by any entity. She was doing her job.

I'm disappointed in how the story devolved and the lore that was presented and hyped from ME1 to ME2 was ignored.

I think the 103rd or 105th Marines destroyed the batarian colony and blew up the relay IIRC.  It's amazing how the lines change from "lock up" to "relieved of duty" when Arrival is uninstalled from ones hard drive.

[Excella Gionne]

erezike wrote...

johnnythao89 wrote...



ME2 is well written to make anyone feel pro-Cerberus, because they were the ones that were actually doing something while the Alliance and the Council were doing nothing about it. I know that they're still recovering from the attacks on the Citadel by Sovereign and the Geth, but still, if it involves your species, at least try to do somethign about it. Ashley and Kaidan don't really add much into trying to convince you that you were wrong by joining Cerberus. 

this really depends on how far you think cerberus-alliance relations goes. 
Alliance is inept or cerberus is still part of the alliance. your pick.

I've always viewed Cerberus to be apart from all organizations. Sure, Alliance officials do fund Cerberus secretly...but their goals are pretty different...

[Excella Gionne]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Massa FX wrote...

Arrival disregards Shepard's Spectre status. Completely. ME3 acts as if Shepard needed Alliance approval on how she stopped the Reapers.

Her destroying the Battarian colony should not have been punishable by any entity. She was doing her job.

I'm disappointed in how the story devolved and the lore that was presented and hyped from ME1 to ME2 was ignored.

I think the 103rd or 105th Marines destroyed the batarian colony and blew up the relay IIRC.  It's amazing how the lines change from "lock up" to "relieved of duty" when Arrival is uninstalled from ones hard drive.

Those dialogues are such lies....lolz, but I think the 105th Marines Division asset is reduced if you didn't do Arrival...

[AlexMBrennan]

I know that they're still recovering from the attacks on the Citadel by Sovereign and the Geth, but still, if it involves your species, at least try to do somethign about it.

Thing is though that the Terminus colonies are not in Alliance space - essentially, they are a sovereign nation. The Colonists targeted by the Collectors intentionally decided to leave Alliance space, thereby forfeiting any protection the Alliance owes it's citizens.

This is made abundantly clear on Horizon: The Colonists did not want to accept any help or protection from the Alliance; they want to remain in no-man's land where they knew they would be targeted by the enemy.

I suspect that this is again an American thing - you evidently think that it's alright to send the military to violate the territory of a sovereign nation if it is deemed necessary to protect American lives but everyone will automatically agree.

At the end of the day, you are asking that the Colonists have all the freedoms (e.g. to leave the Alliance and settle in contested no-man's-land) but at the same time have none of the risks or responsibilities (e.g. you want the Alliance military to protect them no matter what). Why?

Ashley and Kaidan don't really add much into trying to convince you that you were wrong by joining Cerberus.

True, that conversation was badly botched - the "I was dead and thus unable to do anything about Cerberus's mad science experiments which involved my corpse" explanation should have carried a bit more weight.

ME2 is well written to make anyone feel pro-Cerberus

Except not really - once again, Cerberus is the space!Al-Qaeda group that killed Shepard's squad on Akuze, and Shepard just takes space!Bin-Laden's word for everything after he wakes up; Shepard doesn't even call his buddies to see if TIM is, in fact, telling the truth but accepts everything.
If the game had demonstrated that Shepard has to work with Cerberus then it might have been acceptable (except of course for those who want to roleplay Shepard as having some kind of morals and who wouldn't join terrorist organisations at the drop of a hat) but that's not what happened...
Much like ME3's ending, you have a conversation that ends in an impasse that is then arbitrarily resolved by Shepard/Catalyst giving in for no reason at all

[Seboist]

KaiserShep wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I never quite understood the point of being able to kill Joram Talid. Crooked or not, it just seems like a crazy thing to do right in front of C-Sec with zero repercussions. It's worth it to see Kolyat's reaction though.

You speak as if that's the only thing with zero repercussions. If Shepard can get away with cutting off his superiors/the galactic council in a debriefing and shoot up a club in the galactic capital and potentially kill it's owner with no recourse, then he can pretty much get away with anything.

ME at it's core is a juvenile power fantasy.

I only mentioned this one alone because someone else did in this same thread. I'm sure there's plenty of other things throughout the series, but I can't remember them all off the top of my head. Honestly, I can't think of many that are quite as crazy as shooting Joram. Sure, hanging up on the council should be some sort of big political faux pas, and defending yourself against thugs who happened to turn a bar into a fortified gun nut paradise might get more than a brief reprimand, but that's nothing compared to shooting someone who is running for office on the Citadel.

I don't get why Mass Effect would be singled out as a "juvenile power fantasy", when some games are pretty much off the wall in terms of what you can do with zero repercussions. Whether or not the other games are crafted to take themselves seriously doesn't really change that.

Most games don't have things like the Alliance reps groveling like retards at the feet of the PC to stroke the player's ego like in the ME3 intro in the most juvenile manner imaginable. Not ones with any kind of serious writing at any rate(Ex. TW2 and New Vegas).

"Politics" in ME has always been a straight up joke.

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

Completely laughable, Seboist. I'm sorry if your life is so dreary that you assume anyone who hangs up on the Council must be doing it out a 'power fantasy.' You might find it cathartic to be able to talk back to an authority figure in a video game, but your silly projections of yourself sadly don't count for much. The childishly simple reality is that people do it because it's a video game and it's fun to mess around. 

You've never worked have you?