245 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And quite honestly you can't expect the other powers to drop everything they're doing to protect their own worlds to defend Earth. That's part of that "Humans are Special" plot BS.

I did understand the logic in that part -- think about it. If Thessia was the one burning first and Earth was untouched, would you divert ships to save them?
Although, I wouldn't call it "plot BS" as the reason for it. if you remove all the "most genetically diverse" stuff, it still wouldn't be any different -- the bottom line is that whichever race has the misfortune of being attacked first is screwed. No-one's going to take the time and resources to bail them out when their own borders are at risk.

[KaiserShep]

The soldier standing guard between the CIC and the Normandy's conference room actually does touch on that subject.

[Kataphrut94]

erezike wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

I have no issues with the morals of Cerberus and fully support the 'ends justifies the means' ideology that TIM has going for him. But you know what: ideology is just ideology, and Cerberus utterly fails at backing it up with results. Pragia and Overlord were horrible for no practical reason, Akuze made no sense and Project Lazarus somehow managed to go wrong despite their being no rational way it could have gone wrong. If you look at things morally, then Cerberus is evil. If you don't, then just incompetent, certainly more so than any other faction in the series.

That's why I cannot sympathise with people who want to support Cerberus, because you may as well say you want to support the Blood Pack, or the Thorian, or even the Reapers themselves. Mass Effect 2 shilled them as being the last, best hope of humanity, but only by retconning the factions from the previous games into strawmen. Note that Mass Effect 2 was the only time we here that the Alliance and Council sat around doing nothing about the Reapers; it's only because the writers wanted you to like Cerberus. Mass Effect 1 ends with the clear implication that they believe you about the Reapers, and Mass Effect 3 wastes no time in getting them back on track. It's because those factions are actually important to dealing with the Reapers, plus no matter how bad they screw up, they'll never be as bad as Cerberus.

if you think pragia and overlord, akuze were horribile for no practical reason then you  clearly dont support the ends justfy the means ideology. not to mention that akuze and pragia were both 100% alliance operation and overlord is opened for questioning...
Your posts are so often filled with incorrect information data, that i dont know if you are unware of the information you spread or that you bluntly lie to coverup for your sweet alliance.
I have no quarrels with the alliance. but i also hate being jerked around and the alliance being presented as holier than thou. i also still think alliance-cerberus relations runs deep.


Pragia - Subject Zero+Breaking research in human biotics ---> Improved human biotic capabilities. an alliance goal (your sweet ;3 implants...)
Overlord - Save billions of lives. by stopping a war with the murderour geth, maybe even get the control of the geth and protect the undefended human colonies
Akuze - Push forward the defence budject,and research ways to combat poison. you know it as the medical exoskeleton 10 ....

I do support the ends justifying the means, which is why I do not support Cerberus. Everything they did ended in failure and unnecessary loss of life. Pragia lost every subject bar one, who became a traumatised psychopathic murderer who hated Cerberus. Cerberus is responsible for every crime Jack comitted, and until Commander Shepard came along, neither they nor anyone else benefitted from her.

Overlord could have saved billions of lives...if they hadn't decided that the best way to do so would be to torture an autistic man just after plugging him into the geth hivemind. If it had worked, I would have been fine with it. Instead, everyone at the lab died except for Gavin and David, the latter of whom became a traumatised wreck. Gavin outright states he only did what he did because the Illusive Man rushed him on it. That's a direct link between the incompetent management of Cerberus and the failure of Project Overlord.

As for Akuze, I refuse to believe that the only way to study thresher maws is by getting them to slaughter a bunch of unknowing humans and recording the results. We do not study sharks by strapping steaks to a marine biologist and kicking him into a tank full of them. Thresher maws are in the Codex, meaning someone must have already studied them; given the age of the galactic civilisation, I would expect that Cerberus would have gotten everything they needed to know about the thresher maws from scientific journals published 700 years ago.

I'm not saying the Alliance is perfect, but they're a hell of a lot better than Cerberus. Sure, they'll dilly-dally around with bureaucracy from time to time, but at least they won't shoot you in the back of the head because they haven't quite met their pointless death quota.

[Kataphrut94]

If all they wanted to do was study trauma, there are still better ways. Hell, what's to stop them from just capturing one guy and torturing him? It's certainly more efficient than letting an entire military unit get wiped out on the off chance that one of them survives to become a guinea pig.

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...

erezike wrote...

Why do you say the politicians of mass effect were incompetent?
On what are you basing this on?

How about backsliding on the Reaper threat just to save face with the galaxy, who already think they're incompent because of how Saren and the geth ripped the Citadel a new one, despite having "the situation under control?"
How about threatening Shepard with charges of treason -- which is usually punishible by execution via death by spacing -- over the Commander's ties with Cerberus, after everything Shepard did for them?
How about keeping the Commander in lock-up and publically scapegoating Shepard and ruining what little reputation he had for the sake of keeping the batarians from causing an uproar?
How about ignoring the Collector attacks and just brushing them off as being pirate attacks?
How about not stopping the krogan incusions that led to the Krogan Rebellions until after the krogan took an asari world?
How about letting Saren go scott-free without any sort of investigation simply because the objecting party was an "unproven race?"
How about their general politics in branding all races not on the Council as "minor races?"

Based on the above -- and a fair amount more -- I'd be more then willing to say that the politicians of ME are some of the most arrogant and incompetent in existance -- hell, a majority of politicians are like that anyway.
What exactally have they done to prove they aren't incompetent is the real question. They don't think practally. They're only concerned with their image in all this -- something that will be completely inconsiqential if the Reapers win.

 not knowing about something doesnt mean it never happened. all your arguments above are based on what they let the public know. did you think the council just happened to know about noveria, feros and virmire?
You are basing your arguments on the basis that everyone are always honest. this is a fallacy

[Erez Kristal]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

I do support the ends justifying the means, which is why I do not support Cerberus. Everything they did ended in failure 

Everything? you are being demagogic.

[KaiserShep]

If the politicians had their way in ME1, everyone would be dead, and none of their clout or secrets or whatever else would matter. Funny that for all that back and forth dialogue dealing with the bureaucracy, the galaxy was saved in part by punching the ambassador in the face and breaking into his computer. I love it.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:34 .

[KaiserShep]

Especially since every major problem in the Mass Effect series has been solved through the barrel of a gun, and lo and behold, two problems get solved the same way after that conversation.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:38 .

[Erez Kristal]

KaiserShep wrote...

If the politicians had their way in ME1, everyone would be dead, and none of their clout or secrets or whatever else would matter. Funny that for all that back and forth dialogue dealing with the bureaucracy, the galaxy was saved in part by punching the ambassador in the face and breaking into his computer. I love it.

or shepard would have been  grounded and saren would have never been able to get to the council.... many lives would have been saved in the process.  speculations for everyone.

[Kataphrut94]

erezike wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

I do support the ends justifying the means, which is why I do not support Cerberus. Everything they did ended in failure 

Everything? you are being demagogic.

Pretty much everything. Just let me copy paste this list from another forum:

Akuze: Feeding soldiers to thresher maws to test the effects of feeding soldiers to thresher maws.
Rachni: They got loose and killed all their guys.
Thorian Creepers: They got loose and killed all their guys.
Project Lazarus: Brought one guy back from the dead, then let the valuable cure data get blown up by mechs. Also, the guy they brought back eventually got loose and killed all their guys.
Pragia: Lost all test subjects bar one, who was too angry and traumatised to ever benefit them. Also, she got loose and killed all their guys.
Overlord: Hooked an autistic man up to the geth network in the most unnecessarily painful way possible, somehow surprised that they got loose and killed all their guys.
Collector Base: Broken clock is right twice a day. Not that it really mattered, since Shepard did all the work, they became indoctrinated studying the technology, and the Collectors were ultimately a fringe threat. Thanks to James Vega, the Alliance would have sorted them out if Shepard hadn't done it sooner.

Modifié par Kataphrut94, 16 octobre 2013 - 12:05 .

[Dieb]

On top of that, the only operation we know of which ended in success and was overall beneficial to the general public, had the one Cerberus operative involved who is only slightly more loyal than canon-Shepard.

It is my opinion that, whichever way you'd like to put it, as a narrative device Cerberus is simply "evil". And meant to be. If you truly think about what factually happens aside from assumptions and conclusions, the whole shades-of-grey premise was way too short lived in what we've got burned on the game discs to ever outweigh that.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 16 octobre 2013 - 10:31 .

[The Night Mammoth]

I agree with pretty much everything Kataphrut has said so far concerning Cerberus.

I never really got, and still don't get, all the love for Cerberus as an organisation. They've had one reasonably solid success in the Normandy SR2, but the Alliance and turians had already done half the work on that. You could make a case for Project Lazarus, I guess, but they still lost hundreds of people, their research, their facility, and Shepard ends up turning on them in the end anyway.

Some people say they'd trust Cerberus over the Alliance or the Council, because they get **** done. Why, I'm not sure, since almost everything Cerberus does blows back in their faces or ends up and ultimately fails. They attract marginalised scientists and engineers and throw money at their pet projects without really caring about their methods, even from a pragmatic perspective, or even their results.

Good riddance with them I say.

[AlexMBrennan]

How about threatening Shepard with charges of treason -- which is usually punishible by execution via death by spacing -- over the Commander's ties with Cerberus, after everything Shepard did for them?

Well, Shepard is guilty of that crime and should have been executed, end of discussion. If Shepard didn't want to get executed for treason then he should have thought of that before committing treason.

How about keeping the Commander in lock-up and publically scapegoating Shepard and ruining what little reputation he had for the sake of keeping the batarians from causing an uproar?

You are right, the Alliance shouldn't have gone soft and executed Shepard instead.

How about letting Saren go scott-free without any sort of investigation simply because the objecting party was an "unproven race?"

When all else fails, make up sh!t - the problem never was Shepard's race but the complete lack of evidence: At the initial hearing, all Shepard had was a garbled fragment of what might well have been a prothean copy of Independence Day (there is a reason archeology is an academic field) and some ad-hominem attacks contributed by Anderson.

They don't think practally

That's exactly where you are wrong - they do think practically and made sensible choices whilst Shepard was jumping to completely unfounded conclusions; this creates a dissonance because you, the player, know that Shepard will be right about everything eventually since he's the protagonist of a Bioware RPG, and this results in you rationalising (I.e. making up reasons why) Shepard's dumb actions are smart, and why the Council is wrong.

[wright1978]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I agree with pretty much everything Kataphrut has said so far concerning Cerberus.

I never really got, and still don't get, all the love for Cerberus as an organisation. They've had one reasonably solid success in the Normandy SR2, but the Alliance and turians had already done half the work on that. You could make a case for Project Lazarus, I guess, but they still lost hundreds of people, their research, their facility, and Shepard ends up turning on them in the end anyway.

Some people say they'd trust Cerberus over the Alliance or the Council, because they get **** done. Why, I'm not sure, since almost everything Cerberus does blows back in their faces or ends up and ultimately fails. They attract marginalised scientists and engineers and throw money at their pet projects without really caring about their methods, even from a pragmatic perspective, or even their results.

Good riddance with them I say.

I'm a fan of the concept of Cerberus rather than the execution under TIM. So i'm fond of the idea that a new phoenix-like organisation will rise from the flames of Cerberus' destruction.

[Xilizhra]

Well, Shepard is guilty of that crime and should have been executed, end of discussion. If Shepard didn't want to get executed for treason then he should have thought of that before committing treason.

Spectre. And if not that, it's still rather a waste until you learn more about what actually happened.

I'm a fan of the concept of Cerberus rather than the execution under TIM. So i'm fond of the idea that a new phoenix-like organisation will rise from the flames of Cerberus' destruction.

I'm reasonably sure that it won't. Cerberus' reputation is too tainted.

[wright1978]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm a fan of the concept of Cerberus rather than the execution under TIM. So i'm fond of the idea that a new phoenix-like organisation will rise from the flames of Cerberus' destruction.

I'm reasonably sure that it won't. Cerberus' reputation is too tainted.

Well it wouldn't be called Cerberus.
As nature abhors a vacuum i'm sure it will at some point.
My headcanon is that it will be sooner & better.

[The Night Mammoth]

wright1978 wrote...

I'm a fan of the concept of Cerberus rather than the execution under TIM. So i'm fond of the idea that a new phoenix-like organisation will rise from the flames of Cerberus' destruction.

No offense intended, but I don't care for people headcanoning a new Cerberus organisation. Maybe your's is different, but all the examples I've come across are far too 'mary sue'. All the power, all the money, all the morals, none of the mistakes and even less responsibility. 

[Erez Kristal]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

erezike wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

I do support the ends justifying the means, which is why I do not support Cerberus. Everything they did ended in failure 

Everything? you are being demagogic.

Pretty much everything. Just let me copy paste this list from another forum:

Akuze: Feeding soldiers to thresher maws to test the effects of feeding soldiers to thresher maws.
Rachni: They got loose and killed all their guys.
Thorian Creepers: They got loose and killed all their guys.
Project Lazarus: Brought one guy back from the dead, then let the valuable cure
data get blown up by mechs. Also, the guy they brought back eventually
got loose and killed all their guys.
Pragia: Lost all test subjects bar one, who was too angry and traumatised to ever benefit them. Also, she got loose and killed all their guys.
Overlord: Hooked an autistic man up to the geth network in the most unnecessarily painful way possible, somehow surprised that they got loose and killed all their guys.
Collector Base: Broken clock is right twice a day. Not that it really mattered, since Shepard did all the work, they became indoctrinated studying the technology, and the Collectors were ultimately a fringe threat. Thanks to James Vega, the Alliance would have sorted them out if Shepard hadn't done it sooner.

Akzue - Success. soldiers successfully lured, helped introduced the new medical exoskeleton - life saver in me
Rachni -  Obvious Faliure, got hold of the bugs who turned out to be too smart.  revealed true intentions of the rachni race...
Thorian Creepers - Partial Success, Managed To turn the thorians into shock troopers. experiment failed when the thorian was destroyed, damage minimum.
Project lazarus - Complete success, one guy whos the project purpose was to bring back with memories intact. was brought back. Research data from the project was recovered and will be used for future similar projects.
Pragia - Complete Success - Subject Zero has become killer who could be used in future important operations for humanity. Knowledge gained will used to make more powerful biotics in other alliance facilities. 
Overlord - Success - Managed to Control The geth
Reaper Iff - Success
Collectors - Succcess, cerberus was running the show, you are deluding yourself to think otherwise. cerberus gave the intel, the mission list, the tactics, the right ship, the right crew and other resources needed to make that mission successful

More Unmentioned Successful operations - Stopped the batarians from releasing a virus and killing the council
Edi - created a remarkable AI - Co operation with the alliance
The normandy Sr2 - Managed to create the sr2 in secret.
Generated Money through front companies for vigilante missions
Project Firewalker - managed to uncover a very rare prothean artifact.

-Managed to kill two presidents and take no blame for it
- Managed to succesfully kill one pope
All the above actions, helped increase the alliance defence budget and allow project like the normandy sr1 to take place.

- Managed to bomb two human population centers, resulting in human biotics. three of them later were used as shepard squadmates. : kaiden, jacob. subject zero, 


Weapons and tech department:
Invented the cain.
Invented the arc projector.
Invented better kinetc shields by combining alliance and geth tech.

Modifié par erezike, 16 octobre 2013 - 12:09 .

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm reasonably sure that it won't. Cerberus' reputation is too tainted.

Cerberus themselves, yes.

But there's always going to be this element that believes 1) Space is a dangerous place. Not a community 2) The best way to protect oneself in this lawless ocean of activity is to stick with the most likeminded and concentrate on defense, rather than childish notions of diplomacy (childish to them anyways).

I think in one case, Synthesis, there's a chance the galaxy becomes a big melting pot of love and understanding. But whatever. People who pick that option should never be allowed to import their games ever again. They're relegated to Cloud 9 for eternity. It's the Asari dream come true.. everyone's connected. The rest of us should have to deal with the reality of fighting or overcoming differences. None of us are inherently connected. That's a bunch of bull. And people will always handle that in different ways.

I'm still technically undecided between Control and Synthesis, but if you want to create a sequel that follows Destroy only... well, screw you, frankly. There's no point in creating a sequel specifically to disregard player choices just because you don't like them. I also find it amusing that you find that "the asari dream come true" is bad, somehow.

In any case, can't the Alliance handle defense?