518 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

AndyAK79 wrote...

If the endings had such a scale everyone would want the sweet ending. The choice would be meaningless.

The only way to as you suggest would be to have a single, happy ending.

Which is the best ending for DAO?

[AndyAK79]

They are all equally valid. Why is DAO relevant?

You suggested the endings should range from bitter to sweet and are now trying to change the subject.

Modifié par AndyAK79, 12 octobre 2013 - 07:37 .

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

If the endings had such a scale everyone would want the sweet ending. The choice would be meaningless.

The only way to as you suggest would be to have a single, happy ending.

Which is the best ending for DAO?

Alrighty then, now we just need an old god baby and some magic blood.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

If the endings had such a scale everyone would want the sweet ending. The choice would be meaningless.

The only way to as you suggest would be to have a single, happy ending.

Which is the best ending for DAO?

DAO gets away with it by having a veil of ignorance around the DR's consequences. By the time the DR fizzles it won't matter anymore that refusing to do it was just a mistake.

[Iakus]

AndyAK79 wrote...

They are all equally valid. Why is DAO relevant?

You suggested the endings should range from bitter to sweet and are now trying to change the subject.

No I'm saying a variety of endings both bitter and sweet can work without making one of them clearly the best.

Something ME3 utterly failed at, as far as I'm concerned.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

DAO gets away with it by having a veil of ignorance around the DR's consequences. By the time the DR fizzles it won't matter anymore that refusing to do it was just a mistake.

Even if the DR comes to nothing, I still wouldn't consider it the best ending.

[AndyAK79]

So it's better because it doesn't confront you with the consequences of your actions?

Surely this is a narrative weakness, not a strength.

[AndyAK79]

iakus wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

They are all equally valid. Why is DAO relevant?

You suggested the endings should range from bitter to sweet and are now trying to change the subject.

No I'm saying a variety of endings both bitter and sweet can work without making one of them clearly the best.

Something ME3 utterly failed at, as far as I'm concerned.

How can you have a bitter ending that's as good as a sweet one?

[Iakus]

AndyAK79 wrote...

So it's better because it doesn't confront you with the consequences of your actions?

Surely this is a narrative weakness, not a strength.

ME3 certainly did its best to hide the consequences of Shepard's actions, so I don't see how you can call out DAO on it either.

Heck DAO's ending slides do a heck of a lot more than the improbably-upbeat epilogues EC gave us.

[Iakus]

AndyAK79 wrote...

How can you have a bitter ending that's as good as a sweet one?

You haven't played DAO, have you?

[dreamgazer]

AndyAK79 wrote...

So it's better because it doesn't confront you with the consequences of your actions?

Surely this is a narrative weakness, not a strength.

You're now entering the nasty waters of the difference between a general narrative and a wish-fulfillment game narrative.

[Mr.House]

iakus wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

How can you have a bitter ending that's as good as a sweet one?

You haven't played DAO, have you?

Both endings are bittersweet in DAO, none of them are happy go lucky because that would not fit.

[Iakus]

Mr.House wrote...
Both endings are bittersweet in DAO, none of them are happy go lucky because that would not fit.

Precisely.  But there's still enough "sweet" for a player to achieve a satisfying "happyish" ending if they wanted.  One that doesn't leave them feeling cold and empty.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

DAO gets away with it by having a veil of ignorance around the DR's consequences. By the time the DR fizzles it won't matter anymore that refusing to do it was just a mistake.

Even if the DR comes to nothing, I still wouldn't consider it the best ending.

Why not? 

[Iakus]

Because I see a measure of nobility in Loghain's sacrifice that I don't find if he dies at the Landsmeet.  To me it's worth the price of Alistair's friendship and Morrigan abandoning the Warden.

Besides which, unless you are romancing Morrigan, the Dark Ritual is all kinds of creepy, whether you do it yourself or convince Alistair/Loghain to do it instead.

But that's just me.  Others will certainly disagree.  Unfortunately, ME3 decided to go with three (very bad) variations of the Ultimate Sacrifice ending instead. 

[GreatBlueHeron]

AndyAK79 wrote...

GreatBlueHeron wrote...

"MEHEM is a travesty designed by people who can't handle being asked to make grown up or difficult choices, so throw the rattle out of the pram and rewrite the end to suit them."

OP, that is an attack.

It is an attack on an unsolicited mod and it's creators, who are in breach of their copyright agreement with Bioware. As such, I do not believe it violates the rules of this forum, although I am happy to defer to the wisdom of the moderators.

Lol, wut?  The implication is there, oh disingenuous one, that those who play it are as well.  IIRC, the creator of mehem didn't do it for himself because the endings weren't really an issue for him--he did it for the fans.  Bioware doesn't give a bag of feces about the mods, so as long as it doesn't give a competative advantage in mp.
You've been shooting barbs at people throughout the thread.  I'm just calling you out on your BS.  Nothing banable as far as I can tell, but it's annoying and detracts from the arguments you present.

Edited fir spelllin.  Heaven forfend I spill sumpthing wrong, or that mite become the focus of the response wrather than my argument.

Modifié par GreatBlueHeron, 12 octobre 2013 - 09:31 .

[AndyAK79]

iakus wrote...

ME3 certainly did its best to hide the consequences of Shepard's actions, so I don't see how you can call out DAO on it either.

This is simply untrue. ME3 is perfectly forthcoming about the consequences of Shepards actions. The catalyst explains them in detail.

 

[AndyAK79]

iakus wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

How can you have a bitter ending that's as good as a sweet one?

You haven't played DAO, have you?

Yes I have, several times. Please argue your point instead of making unqualified accusations of ignorance.

[AndyAK79]

GreatBlueHeron wrote...

Edited fir spelllin.  Heaven forfend I spill sumpthing wrong, or that mite become the focus of the response wrather than my argument.

Whilst your criticism is not entirely unfair I have already apologised at least once for this. This sorry diversion ended several hours ago, please don't ressurect it. You are very welcome to engage with the discussion.

Modifié par AndyAK79, 12 octobre 2013 - 10:06 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Because I see a measure of nobility in Loghain's sacrifice that I don't find if he dies at the Landsmeet.  To me it's worth the price of Alistair's friendship and Morrigan abandoning the Warden.

Besides which, unless you are romancing Morrigan, the Dark Ritual is all kinds of creepy, whether you do it yourself or convince Alistair/Loghain to do it instead.

I see the point about Loghain, but what's wrong with creepy?

Anyway, that still leaves the US as a mistake. A mistake isn't a huge problem conceptually, but if the DA:O ending slides had made it clear that US Wardens died for nothing...... 

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 octobre 2013 - 10:19 .

[AndyAK79]

iakus wrote...

Because I see a measure of nobility in Loghain's sacrifice that I don't find if he dies at the Landsmeet.  To me it's worth the price of Alistair's friendship and Morrigan abandoning the Warden.

Besides which, unless you are romancing Morrigan, the Dark Ritual is all kinds of creepy, whether you do it yourself or convince Alistair/Loghain to do it instead.

But that's just me.  Others will certainly disagree.  Unfortunately, ME3 decided to go with three (very bad) variations of the Ultimate Sacrifice ending instead. 

You are arguing the value of negative consequences in DAO - you say it is 'worth the price'. but you refuse to acknowledge the value of the same concept of balancing consequence in ME3 because there isn't an ending that suits you. 

I don't get my happy ending either. I don't want to sacrifice Shepard, I don't want to sacrifice the Geth. I want to win. I want to have an easy way out. But those options aren't available to my Shepard. He has to make a choice based on what's in front of him. This is the source of the drama in the climax of the game. 

It seems that your argument is less about the quality of the game and more about being entitled to your idea of what the game should be. Which is exactly why you keep plugging the appalling MEHEM. Your reaction to ME2,whilst less vociferous, was not disimilar. 

In short I suggest you are not judging games on their own merits but weighing them against your own expectations. And I will go far as to say this is a prime cause of much of the criticism of Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par AndyAK79, 12 octobre 2013 - 10:25 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

I see the point about Loghain, but what's wrong with creepy?

Because to me, nobility>creepy.  Maybe others disagree.

Anyway, that still leaves the US as a mistake. A mistake isn't a huge problem conceptually, but if the DA:O ending slides had made it clear that US Wardens died for nothing...... 

And yet there are those who prefer US.  I don't.  But I certainly don't begrudge them the option.  I've done it with one of my Wardens, and it's certainly a better sendoff than Shepard ever got.

[Iakus]

AndyAK79 wrote...

You are arguing the value of negative consequences in DAO - you say it is 'worth the price'. but you refuse to acknowledge the value of the same concept of balancing consequence in ME3 because there isn't an ending that suits you.

No, I'm arguing that ME3 demands too high a price.  I've never said offering different outcomes was a bad thing.  I cite DAO as an example of it done right.    

I don't get my happy ending either. I don't want to sacrifice Shepard, I don't want to sacrifice the Geth. I want to win. I want to have an easy way out. But those options aren't available to my Shepard. He has to make a choice based on what's in front of him. This is the source of the drama in the climax of the game.

Oh THE DRAMA!  Why didn't you say so?  That makes the endings great!  It has DRAMA!  And feelz too!  And maybe a side of Dark and Gritty Realism!

Yeah, right.  If I don't have the options to "win" a game as you put it, why should I bother playing?  Why should I play a game where completing it feels like I've done something wrong?

It seems that your argument is less about the quality of the game and more about being entitled to your idea of what the game should be. Which is exactly why you keep plugging the appalling MEHEM. Your reaction to ME2,whilst less vociferous, was not disimilar.

I bought a game, so I feel entitled to have a game I can play without going all hollow inside. Something even ME2 managed to accomplish.

In short I suggest you are not judging games on their own merits but weighing them against your own expectations. And I will go far as to say this is a prime cause of much of the criticism of Mass Effect 3.

Yeah, all these players must be doing it wrong.

Modifié par iakus, 12 octobre 2013 - 10:56 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

While I don't entirely agree with iakus on the idea of there being such thing as too high prices (in the context of destroy), I do feel as though the game does not reflect player effort into the series or give enough context into the galaxy, Shepard, or the end-decision. It feels empty, and I, as a player, feel cheated by the narrative and gameplay. I believe having Shepard alive and well in ending cutscenes, with a reflection on how you played your game and a reflection on the choices you made throughout the series, from Shepard's own perspective, was something that would have made the game much better. The whole concept of the ending itself was very poorly executed.

Really, all I'm getting from this Andy guy is that he's a less-insulting, slightly more eloquent version of Txgoldrush or Grey Nayr. That's all I really think about him here. No different than any other anti-anti-ender who goes too far with his idea that he see's the picture and that everyone else is missing the point. Nothing new. I know not to take him seriously.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 12 octobre 2013 - 11:05 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Anyway, that still leaves the US as a mistake. A mistake isn't a huge problem conceptually, but if the DA:O ending slides had made it clear that US Wardens died for nothing...... 

And yet there are those who prefer US.  I don't.  But I certainly don't begrudge them the option.  I've done it with one of my Wardens, and it's certainly a better sendoff than Shepard ever got.

You don't think it would have bothered people to immediately find out that the US was a mistake for the Warden?