Aller au contenu

Photo

The endings and the issue of closure


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
518 réponses à ce sujet

#351
Chashan

Chashan
  • Members
  • 1 654 messages

dreamgazer wrote...

And trust me, I don't have any kind of "obsession" with sacrifice.  What I do care about is the fact that the Reapers have been ingrained in the operations of the universe since time immemorial, something established in the first game, that they're the creators of the life-sustaining relays and Citadel, and that we're rushing to build a complex super-weapon to defeat them in a very, very short time period.  Right out removing all of them with the destroy option without repercussions (the unavoidable "sacrifice") with this hasty weapon amounts to even more of a reckless power-fantasy than even I can stomach.


What say you, then, to a more 'localized' sacrifice?

Likening the unknown destructive potential of the Crucible to the fears about the atomic bomb prior to its first usage, as was done once well prior to the finale, already sets a reasonable enough example to follow for the repercussions of Destroy. The lowest 'tier' of that at low EMS was fittingly done, too.

Going from there, mid-EMS being somewhat less destructive the further away the 'epi-centre' of the Sol-system is and at high EMS possibly being limited to that, there would be a very real and less contrived consequence there.

#352
Skvindt

Skvindt
  • Members
  • 236 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I know it's not a given that the player destroy the collector base. 90% did. Bioware has the numbers. 90% of players mindlessly choose upper right. "I will not let fear compromise who I am." -- Hey wake up Shepard! What the hell do you think you just did? You let fear get in the way of common sense. That was one of the biggest cringe-worthy lines of the game.

Bah! I play pragmatists.

And I just finished my taxes. So that's my excuse.


This is one of the downsides of the dialogue system.  You could be selecting an option for reasons that differ from the dialogue Shepard gives, especially in this instance.

I generally choose destroy because most of my Shep's don't trust it in the hands of the shady dude he's working for.  If it were to go to the Alliance or something, I would certainly give it second thought as there is the possibility of learning substantially from the base that could help against the Reapers.

#353
Seboist

Seboist
  • Members
  • 11 989 messages

SRX wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I know it's not a given that the player destroy the collector base. 90% did. Bioware has the numbers. 90% of players mindlessly choose upper right. "I will not let fear compromise who I am." -- Hey wake up Shepard! What the hell do you think you just did? You let fear get in the way of common sense. That was one of the biggest cringe-worthy lines of the game.

Bah! I play pragmatists.

And I just finished my taxes. So that's my excuse.


This is one of the downsides of the dialogue system.  You could be selecting an option for reasons that differ from the dialogue Shepard gives, especially in this instance.

I generally choose destroy because most of my Shep's don't trust it in the hands of the shady dude he's working for.  If it were to go to the Alliance or something, I would certainly give it second thought as there is the possibility of learning substantially from the base that could help against the Reapers.


Shepard isn't your self-insert.

And congrats on making an already pointless middle entry more pointless by destroying the only thing worthwhile Shepard has come across against the Reapers since ME1.

#354
GreatBlueHeron

GreatBlueHeron
  • Members
  • 1 490 messages
And look what TIM did with the info from the base, which is why destroying it should have had an impact in thwarting completely or slowing down cerberus research on indoctrination. As it stands, it doesn't really matter which option you pick unless you have low EMS.

#355
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

GreatBlueHeron wrote...

And look what TIM did with the info from the base, which is why destroying it should have had an impact in thwarting completely or slowing down cerberus research on indoctrination. As it stands, it doesn't really matter which option you pick unless you have low EMS.


I'd rather not thwart Cerberus. I'd rather they study Reaper tech and indoctrination, since I view them as the people who can best help me fight the Reapers.

Their methods, however violent, show me that they're willing to do anything to stop the Reapers. I need and want people like them.

I just wish they didn't get so reckless with the technology. That's what I was afraid would happen with the CB, and that's why I destroyed it. We couldn't control it. It was the Reapers. They were its masters, not us. As much as I advocate studying Reaper tech, this stuff was a timebomb waiting to go off in our face.

#356
Reorte

Reorte
  • Members
  • 6 601 messages

Seboist wrote...

And congrats on making an already pointless middle entry more pointless by destroying the only thing worthwhile Shepard has come across against the Reapers since ME1.

There's nothing specifically useful we know of inside the base, and giving anything to Cerberus doesn't seem like it'll help against the Reapers since quite frankly Cerberus is too small and isolated to be able to do anything, no matter how much they know. All they'll do is what they in fact end up doing, diverting attention and resources from the real threat. If I'd had the choice of handing the base to the Alliance or the Council I may well have done that.

#357
KaiserShep

KaiserShep
  • Members
  • 23 845 messages
Can't say that the base is or isn't useful while looking at Mass Effect 2 on its own, but to be fair, this is basically a reaper factory. If ever there was something that gave a very thorough layout of the building process of the reapers, you're not going to find anything closer than this. It's just too bad that you only had the option of destroying it, and handing it over to the crazy goofballs that seem more concerned about subjugating things than outright removing them.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 14 octobre 2013 - 01:29 .


#358
Deathsaurer

Deathsaurer
  • Members
  • 1 505 messages

KaiserShep wrote...

but to be fair, this is basically a reaper factory. If ever there was something that gave a very thorough layout of the building process of the reapers, you're not going to find anything closer than this.


That really wouldn't help. Even ME3 says Sovereign class Reapers are unique designwise. I'm assuming that means internal layout. But this means the only design you can gain any insight into is the Human Reaper they intended to build.

#359
AndyAK79

AndyAK79
  • Members
  • 145 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I know it's not a given that the player destroy the collector base. 90% did. Bioware has the numbers. 90% of players mindlessly choose upper right. "I will not let fear compromise who I am." -- Hey wake up Shepard! What the hell do you think you just did? You let fear get in the way of common sense. That was one of the biggest cringe-worthy lines of the game.

Bah! I play pragmatists.

And I just finished my taxes. So that's my excuse.


I am not sure handing vast stores of hitherto unseen tech into the hands of a treacherous, ruthless and morally suspect organisation is pragmatically sound.

Also, after doing your taxes how can you resist a big explosion? 

#360
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests
It wasn't mindless. Reaper tech has cooties. And that was proven in the end. TIM died of Reaper syphilis, kind of like Al Capone and real syphilis. I'm surprised Shepard hasn't gotten it at this point. Reapers apparently aren't "technology" in the typical sense.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 14 octobre 2013 - 07:52 .


#361
KwangtungTiger

KwangtungTiger
  • Members
  • 300 messages

StreetMagic wrote...

It wasn't mindless. Reaper tech has cooties. And that was proven in the end. TIM died of Reaper syphilis, kind of like Al Capone and real syphilis. I'm surprised Shepard hasn't gotten it at this point.


I think my Shepard got the clap from Jack...........

#362
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests
You shut your mouth. Jack's a good girl. :)

#363
AndyAK79

AndyAK79
  • Members
  • 145 messages
We seem to have veered off into a separate discussion on ME2. Grateful to anyone who can steer this thread back in the vague direction of the main discussion.

#364
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests
Seriously though, Reaper tech isn't "tech" in the usual sense. They only represent technology from the Leviathan standpoint. They learned from their parents, who also inflicted people with indoctrination. The child developed a technological way to imitate it.

So I don't think much of it is that useful for humans or other organics.. it's technology from a completely different paradigm of existence.. an existence hard to apply for our own. I don't think it's as simple as being a Luddite or anything for rejecting it. You're just rejecting a specific type of technology, in this case. Not all technology.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 14 octobre 2013 - 07:56 .


#365
AndyAK79

AndyAK79
  • Members
  • 145 messages

StreetMagic wrote...

Seriously though, Reaper tech isn't "tech" in the usual sense. They only represent technology from the Leviathan standpoint. They learned from their parents, who also inflicted people with indoctrination. The child developed a technological way to imitate it.

So I don't think much of it is that useful for humans or other organics.. it's technology from a completely different paradigm of existence.. an existence hard to apply for our own. I don't think it's as simple as being a Luddite or anything for rejecting it. You're just rejecting a specific type of technology, in this case. Not all technology.


Socio-evolutionary theory on a BSN forum? Terrifying. And just a tiny bit inspiring.:blink:

Modifié par AndyAK79, 14 octobre 2013 - 08:27 .


#366
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

AndyAK79 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Seriously though, Reaper tech isn't "tech" in the usual sense. They only represent technology from the Leviathan standpoint. They learned from their parents, who also inflicted people with indoctrination. The child developed a technological way to imitate it.

So I don't think much of it is that useful for humans or other organics.. it's technology from a completely different paradigm of existence.. an existence hard to apply for our own. I don't think it's as simple as being a Luddite or anything for rejecting it. You're just rejecting a specific type of technology, in this case. Not all technology.


Socio-evolutionary theory on a BSN forum? Terrifying. And just a tiny bit inspiring.:blink:


Heh. I don't know if you should be too surprised. It's kind of the undercurrent of the whole series, isn't it? At least I think so. We're not fighting just for survival, but for a chance to decide our goals, our destinies.. who or what will set the precedent for evolution, who or what will chart the course for humanity (same goes for other races, and what they decide for themselves)?

And on that note - just to tie this back in with the original thread discussion (since you asked), I don't think the Trilogy helped us answer these big questions enough. I don't have closure, just yet. I'm curious where Mass Effect goes from here. I don't even think the Reaper threat is over.. because Leviathan is back. Same thing. Maybe worse. They've evolved in such a way as to impede everyone else's evolution. Probably best to nip it in the bud soon.. Blow their planet up, if you ask me. Like the Collector Base, I love a good explosion. B)

Modifié par StreetMagic, 14 octobre 2013 - 09:21 .


#367
Gideon Drexlar

Gideon Drexlar
  • Members
  • 3 messages
What closure? I got to pick a color, see some cutscenes that made no sense and then got told to buy some DLC.

Extended Cut was closure enough for me with my "blue" ending.

#368
ConanTheLeader

ConanTheLeader
  • Members
  • 115 messages
 I think there was plenty of closure, I also love the Destroy ending because seeing Shepherd gasp for breath reminds me of him survivng a head on collision with Soveriegn in ME1. To me that allows me to imagine what happens next, I do not need to see him skipping down a road into a sunset, holding Liara's hand. The game respects my maturity and imagination enough to know I can work out the rest.

#369
AndyAK79

AndyAK79
  • Members
  • 145 messages

ConanTheLeader wrote...

 I think there was plenty of closure, I also love the Destroy ending because seeing Shepherd gasp for breath reminds me of him survivng a head on collision with Soveriegn in ME1. To me that allows me to imagine what happens next, I do not need to see him skipping down a road into a sunset, holding Liara's hand. The game respects my maturity and imagination enough to know I can work out the rest.


I agree. The endings bring Shepard's story to a close. I can't see how an extra ten minutes of fine detail would add much quality-wise, and I prefer the ever-after to be left to my imagination. Name one story in any medium that explains the hero's whole life story at the end.

Also, skipping would be bad.

Modifié par AndyAK79, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:55 .


#370
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 349 messages

ConanTheLeader wrote...

 I think there was plenty of closure, I also love the Destroy ending because seeing Shepherd gasp for breath reminds me of him survivng a head on collision with Soveriegn in ME1. To me that allows me to imagine what happens next, I do not need to see him skipping down a road into a sunset, holding Liara's hand. The game respects my maturity and imagination enough to know I can work out the rest.


I guess ME1 and ME2 did it wrong then.

Also Dragon Age.

In addition, triggering a synthetic holocaust is not the kind of "closure" I want after five years and three games.  Not that the other endings are any better (worse for me, actually)

#371
KaiserShep

KaiserShep
  • Members
  • 23 845 messages

Deathsaurer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

but to be fair, this is basically a reaper factory. If ever there was something that gave a very thorough layout of the building process of the reapers, you're not going to find anything closer than this.


That really wouldn't help. Even ME3 says Sovereign class Reapers are unique designwise. I'm assuming that means internal layout. But this means the only design you can gain any insight into is the Human Reaper they intended to build.


Just about everything in ME3 kind of threw it all out the window, but within the confines of ME2, where the Crucible was not yet discovered, it's not as if there was an abundance of options either. We didn't know whether or not the reaper construction process changed significantly with each new "birth"; we only knew that each one marked the end of a different species.

#372
Chashan

Chashan
  • Members
  • 1 654 messages
I know, it's been a few days...

AndyAK79 wrote...

On this last statement I wholeheartedly agree. My obsession with language is a consequence of my proffesion and I'm happy to admit it isn't always a virtue. Sincere apologies for any offense taken.

Proper discussion then:

Your point about control not being supported earlier in the game is fair, although it can be excused to some degree by pointing out that Shepards objection is to the Reapers being under the control of cerberus. The actual nature of the control option offered could not be anticipated by Shepard, and I would argue that choosing it at the end is dramatically fitting because it shows Shepards willing to make a choice he finds distasteful for the greater good.

I don't feel that having three options for sacrifice undermines its meaningfulness and I don't undestand why you do. In each of the options the galaxy is saved at asubstantial cost. If you view the options there is no 'right' option and no 'wrong' option. Each player's choice has to be weighed and measured, and is equally valid (with the arguable exception of refuse). Each option brings victory, each option brings sacrifice. Can you really argue that this is not the case? and can you argue that that this would be the case if one ending was better than the others?


The fact that all three boil down to sacrifice of the protagonist, as well as a portion of their allies who are targeted galaxy-wide for badly explored reasons in the case of Red somewhat makes each option look much like the other.

The mechanisms of triggering the Crucible being less than believeable also do not quite help making this decision too 'authentic', if you will. Hence, for some it is not so much 'victory' that matters at the end but the manner in which it was achieved, as well as some of the consequences being touted, themselves questionable, remaining somewhat nebulous instead of being made front and center being the issue - someone here mentioned the endings being quite 'happy' no matter which is picked in the case of the colour-coded ones, and I have to agree there.
Coming up with alternatives to that, frankly, is one of the few more productive exercises that final scenario presents. I'll try and do that for Red, for argument's sake and to hear your opinion on whether that would still be an outright 'best' choice.



Now of all finales Red is the most malleable one of the lot through EMS, which does give hoarding those WA some meaning as a sum-total, to a point where the PC does come through, somehow, despite little in the way of cathartic pay-off beyond that. The other downside, 'collateral damage', is something reasonably well set up in the low EMS-version of it. As the similarity of the Crucible's capability to the then unknown repercussions of the first atomic bomb is invoked in the game , a WMD known to not distinguish based on any more specific criterion what it affects in its radius, it poses the question why this was not made the primary down-side of it: raw, collateral damage. It's a convincing enough dilemma due to Sol-system, thus Earth affected no matter what being a result of the circumstance of the Citadel having been towed there, rather than a wave of energy that - somehow - is accurate enough to distinguish between code, supposedly, but cannot keep the not-too small Reapers in its sights.

And that would be bound to affect Shepards' decision one way or the other, as it is their race's homeplanet, arguably more so than potentially losing AI-allies - which would only be EDI in the case of those who already had the geth destroyed above Rannoch.
What I proposed before, the effect being somewhat more 'restrained' at higher EMS, yet still at the very least leaving Sol and surrounding systems to bear the brunt of the detonation, could also pose the question of whether every last Reaper was wiped out throughout the galaxy. The large majority of them may have been destroyed as they rallied to Earth for the final engagement with the allied fleets, but it would leave yet another downside to Red: the Reapers defeated, yet not entirely exterminated.



That covers an alternate approach to Red's 'aftermath', not yet its aforementioned absurd activation. Nor the last-minute 'exposition' of it through the Catalyst, with which quite a few people, me included, got problems with.


I also feel that comparing ME3 to other games (Bioware and otherwise) is not partcularly helpful. The narrative and style of those games is different anough that their resolutions are not readilly interchangeable; they are dependent on what has gone before. This extends to some extent to other Mass Effect games as well as Dragon Age or KOTOR; The narrative thrust of the games is different enough to warrant a different conclusion. I also believe that repetition leads to stagnation. The games are stronger for not simply repeating what has gone before; it allows the games to stand on their own strengths. 


The thing is that quite a number of those involved with the development of those earlier games by BW had a hand in that of ME3 as well. Mr Walters, for example, was among the writers for JE, and as I said, despite the gravity of the decision at that game's end it worked. Hence, comparing ME3 to other games' narrative, especially those in-house is valid and useful to deduce why there wasn't near as much discontent among players with those. ME3, for one, did invoke a certain 'DA:O-in-space'-vibe with its rallying the galaxy against the all-powerful 'dragon'/Reapers. Not too horrible an example to follow, given DA:O's success.

And whether ME3's finale was all that innovative is also way out there. It was cried from the rooftops by some that it is a 'rip-off' of Deus Ex: Human Revolution. After finishing that game recently, I am hard-pressed not to see certain inspiration primarily for the EC-finale therein - other than lacking a definite 'destroy'-equivalent, and the PC's role in that game's end being primarily that of a 'messenger'.
I hope that doesn't spoil too much about that game, I'd recommend giving it a shot at any rate if you haven't already. What it further did was:
1) relegate exposition of the final choice to a character who was established well in advance and proved her trustworthiness
2) the entire game being about the following question, when it came down to it: human augmentation, yay or nay? Showing the advantages and risks to society, with the player in a place to give their final statement on that in the end

Especially the first I view as the crux of ME3's exposition-'device' rather than character that is the 'Child'/'Catalyst'. Its supposed motivation for what it is doing being something one could already make a very poignant statement on at the end of the Rannoch-arc also smacked of redundancy, at that generally well received arc's expense. Ignoring the oversimplification of the thing's mandate via certains memes, it is again not terribly hard to think of better alternatives. Such as simply preventing the rise of any serious contenders to the Reapers' absolute position within the galaxy, or even being concerned with any civilization, organic or machine, developing self-destructive potential, or a combination of the two.

As is, with what we have, you'll have to pardon me when I am feeling somewhat more at home when I don't have to put up with the awkwardly placed, overly long monologue of that thing at the very end, at the expense of pacing and my tolerance of, in my opinion, badly written and executed VO. A matter of taste, of course, so naturally your mileage may vary.

#373
AndyAK79

AndyAK79
  • Members
  • 145 messages

iakus wrote...

ConanTheLeader wrote...

 I think there was plenty of closure, I also love the Destroy ending because seeing Shepherd gasp for breath reminds me of him survivng a head on collision with Soveriegn in ME1. To me that allows me to imagine what happens next, I do not need to see him skipping down a road into a sunset, holding Liara's hand. The game respects my maturity and imagination enough to know I can work out the rest.


I guess ME1 and ME2 did it wrong then.

Also Dragon Age.


Nobody is suggesting this but you. It is possible to like something without thinking that anything different is 'wrong'. 

#374
RatThing

RatThing
  • Members
  • 584 messages

iakus wrote...

In addition, triggering a synthetic holocaust is not the kind of "closure" I want after five years and three games.  Not that the other endings are any better (worse for me, actually)


You should have paid attention to the other 2 games. There is no ending to a mass effect game without sacrifice. It's only logical that the finale of the trilogy has the greatest one.

#375
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 349 messages

RatThing wrote...

iakus wrote...

In addition, triggering a synthetic holocaust is not the kind of "closure" I want after five years and three games.  Not that the other endings are any better (worse for me, actually)


You should have paid attention to the other 2 games. There is no ending to a mass effect game without sacrifice. It's only logical that the finale of the trilogy has the greatest one.


I paid plenty of attention.  I daresay I probably played ME1 at least, more than you did.

First two games, the price demanded was worth the outcome.  The third made me feel Shepard became a  worse character than Saren at his darkest.