518 réponses à ce sujet

[Kel Riever]

AndyAK79 wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

You haven't defined closure and yet you are calling my definition of narrow.  That means its your turn to make a case if you are going to make that accusation.

I'm not using a special definition, I'm using the standard definition in English in this context. According to the OED: 

a sense of resolution or conclusion at the end of an artistic work:he brings modernistic closure to his narrative

Your definition s far narrower.[/i]

I agree that my definition is narrower then, but I also argue that even by the one you use, none of the 3 movies I mentioned reaches closure.  They simply end, purposely, withouth closure.

Edit:  By the way, note that 'modernistic closure' is not defined here.  Unless you want to go and put your own definition forth so I understand what it is you consider closure.  From what I see, 'modernistic closure' is a problematic term so in this case, the OED is quite failing.  Though I certainly respect their attempt.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 16 octobre 2013 - 06:31 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Kel Riever wrote...

"If they're that surprised that people actually care about the characters, they should get out of the RPG business and just make shooters. Get out of story telling altogether and just make multiplayer games with no story at all. I mean who really cares, right? What's the point in playing a RPG if you don't care about your protagonist or any of the characters in the story, let alone the story?"

I found this quote from SJ to ring true. 

If BioWare can't do a decent job with the series as a story or an RPG vidoe game, then they should go full Call of Duty.  And people will decry them and call them turkeys.  But they are now anyway because they couldn't execute on the one strong poin they had.

Most every day I play Mass Effect multiplayer.  For all its faults, it well makes up for them, plus lets me pretend someone wasn't fool enough to end the RPG part of the series in such a massive flop.  I've saved money too, not having purchased Leviathan, Omega or Citadel, or whatever weapon pack thing came out in the meantime.  Never spent money on a microtransaction and never will.

And look!  Who is going to do the next ME series?  The crew who did their job as opposed to didn't do their job.  I'd rather see that though I won't be buying it because BioWare will never fix their ending.  Point is, however, you give your product to people who did their job as opposed to the ones who keep on telling you how you aren't supposed to want closure, or a good ending or be satisfied, because, well, that makes you 'unimaginative.'

But Call of Duty is going STORY now. Look at Black Ops 2. It was a great story. You had choices and they mattered. They mattered more than your choices in Mass Effect 3. The endingS were better, too. 

They are going STORY again from what I read in GI, because Activision wants to outdo Infinity Ward with Ghost. It may not be a RPG but you might have choices again. The campaign is supposed to be a good story anyway. They're hiring top notch writers to write story.

But what I was talking about was just go straight multiplayer if you're not going to care about story or characters in the story.

[Kel Riever]

Yes, well, you know. I meant CoD of ye old. In other words, the reverse is true too...if you CAN do story well, looks like the market is wide open for that right now!

[dreamgazer]

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

[Steelcan]

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

.  They have a funny way of showing it

[dreamgazer]

Steelcan wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

.  They have a funny way of showing it

Whether it was to the player's taste or not is up to the indiviual, but I struggle to see how you can play this 20-30 hour game involving that much dialogue and these many plot flags---roughly handled as they may be---and say they simply don't care about them.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

Whether it was to the player's taste or not is up to the indiviual, but I struggle to see how you can play this 20-30 hour game involving that much dialogue and these many plot flags---roughly handled as they may be---and say they simply don't care about them.

And I look at the endings and wonder how you can say they do.

[shingara]

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

 They care so much they have thrown it all out for me4.

[Reorte]

shingara wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

 They care so much they have thrown it all out for me4.

That's fair enough though. Carrying around the baggage from previous games would become unmanageable otherwise. Plus the Mass Effect universe is rich enough that it'll be good to see other perspectives of it. As much as I'd love more of Shepard and crew it's reasonable and sensible to move on with something new.

[shingara]

Reorte wrote...

shingara wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

 They care so much they have thrown it all out for me4.

That's fair enough though. Carrying around the baggage from previous games would become unmanageable otherwise. Plus the Mass Effect universe is rich enough that it'll be good to see other perspectives of it. As much as I'd love more of Shepard and crew it's reasonable and sensible to move on with something new.

 That baggage is what made mass effect mass effect though isnt it.  They cant even do a DA2 style next game to the series.

Modifié par shingara, 16 octobre 2013 - 07:14 .

[Reorte]

shingara wrote...

Reorte wrote...

shingara wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

 They care so much they have thrown it all out for me4.

That's fair enough though. Carrying around the baggage from previous games would become unmanageable otherwise. Plus the Mass Effect universe is rich enough that it'll be good to see other perspectives of it. As much as I'd love more of Shepard and crew it's reasonable and sensible to move on with something new.

 That baggage is what made mass effect mass effect though isnt it.  They cant even do a DA2 style next game to the series.

Only partially. It made a lot of what gave Mass Effect appeal but isn't what made Mass Effect. Anyway, having to deal with all the various outcomes from every previous story every time you make a new story simply isn't possible. As I said I'd love more of Shepard and crew but there's a lot more that could be done with the Mass Effect universe so it's good to change the constraints.

[Iakus]

shingara wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

 They care so much they have thrown it all out for me4.

Honestly, at this point I don't see any alternative but to amputate the limb to save the body.

[Kel Riever]

iakus wrote...

shingara wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

 They care so much they have thrown it all out for me4.

Honestly, at this point I don't see any alternative but to amputate the limb to save the body.

I think the problem here is that the head was amputated....

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Whether it was to the player's taste or not is up to the indiviual, but I struggle to see how you can play this 20-30 hour game involving that much dialogue and these many plot flags---roughly handled as they may be---and say they simply don't care about them.

And I look at the endings and wonder how you can say they do.

Them attempting a tough choice like the end in ME3 without the availability of magic blood or old god babies, despite its heavy flaws, shows that they actually gave more of a damn about creating an interesting story that uses the previous games' context than the lazy ludicrousness of simply "defeating" the Reapers, either by weakening their defenses and blowing them up or yelling at them until they left the galaxy.

shingara wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

 They care so much they have thrown it all out for me4.

You mean they ended the trilogy? Yeah, they did. 

[Reorte]

dreamgazer wrote...

Them attempting a tough choice like the end in ME3 without the availability of magic blood or old god babies, despite its heavy flaws, shows that they actually gave more of a damn about creating an interesting story that uses the previous games' context than the lazy ludicrousness of simply "defeating" the Reapers, either by weakening their defenses and blowing them up or yelling at them until they left the galaxy.

No it doesn't, particularly when it turns it into a stupid, badly thought out story and in any case "magic blood or old god babies" is pretty much what we got. It was lazy ludicrousness.

[Iakus]

[quote]dreamgazer wrote...

Them attempting a tough choice like the end in ME3 without the availability of magic blood[/quote]
 
You mean Synthesis?

[quote]or old god babies, [/quote]

Control? 

[quote]
despite its heavy flaws, shows that they actually gave more of a damn about creating an interesting story that uses the previous games' context than the lazy ludicrousness of simply "defeating" the Reapers, either by weakening their defenses and blowing them up or yelling at them until they left the galaxy.

[quote]shingara wrote...

Actually, it pretty much threw the entire trilogy's context out the window and started from scratch.

[Kel Riever]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Whether it was to the player's taste or not is up to the indiviual, but I struggle to see how you can play this 20-30 hour game involving that much dialogue and these many plot flags---roughly handled as they may be---and say they simply don't care about them.

And I look at the endings and wonder how you can say they do.

Them attempting a tough choice like the end in ME3 without the availability of magic blood or old god babies, despite its heavy flaws, shows that they actually gave more of a damn about creating an interesting story that uses the previous games' context than the lazy ludicrousness of simply "defeating" the Reapers, either by weakening their defenses and blowing them up or yelling at them until they left the galaxy.

shingara wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They still care about the story and characters, folks.

 They care so much they have thrown it all out for me4.

You mean they ended the trilogy? Yeah, they did. 

Ah, we can go on about whether they cared or not.  Honestly, I would say this isn't an issue of caring but of just atrocious taste and lack of forethought (and possibly a rush job) on account of the people who mattered.

But the reason matters less to me than the result.  I mean, you know, if someone tried to put my car together well, and the tires fell off when I drove it, they might have cared, but it didn't mean they did their job.

Anyway, yes, I agree with the sentiment that you need an intelligent way to defeat 20,000 seriously over the top powerful space crabs.  But I do not subscribe to either that it needs to be a magic microphone, a supercool conventional war, or a big lecture.  It simply needs to be coherent and make sense in the context of the story (and well, at least basic logic).  And if you are making an RPG with choices that matter, well, there should be choices that matter....

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The ending to ME3 frakked the whole thing. They know it. There should have been no "choices" in the end. They needed to tie up the story into one ending. Nothing short of Shepard dying on the platform with Anderson at the start of ME4 and have the entire ME3 ending be Shepard's death dream, then having another group (Artemis squad, Kel) arrive on the Citadel and actually fire the Crucible and blow up the reapers and only the reapers, canonize that the Geth and Quarians made peace, ****** off a bunch of fans so you can actually write a story, then fast forward 25-50 years, is going to solve this mess.

[shingara]

dreamgazer wrote...

You mean they ended the trilogy? Yeah, they did. 

 They could have ended the trilogy and still had a link to it. remember what we crossed over in saves from 1-3 wasnt earth shattering or game breaking if they wernt there on a fresh run with no saves in 2 or 3. There were pointers and cameos in the followup games in relation to what had gone before but in the bulk that was all.

 They added nice twists to the game to play with and without saves. But it was stated that there would be no reference to anything from shepard or crew or actions taken. so what does that mean, you will not see any of the old crew from any of the games.

 How many out there would have loved to input a save like we did in da2, now im not saying da2 was good, it was ok but the touches from the previous da titles added that little thanks for being a valued customer and here is a nice reward for you type of thing.

 The next game i would have been happy to play if it were the near future after the end (lol) of me3 as someone who had been on earth when the battle was going and spun off from there, references being placed from previous games within that game and games that followed.

 If the next game had been in the far future the references could have been more vague even to the extreme of finding little easter eggs on abandoned worlds or meeting npcs who were desendants of people you saved or played with, a good example is those exogene people. there are even some peeps who could live for hundreds of years after me3 who could have had cameo parts even to the extent of having dlc options to have them as crew as they are so long lived.


 So they have not only ended the trilogy, they have thrown away the cultural enhancments and detrations your actions have placed upon the mass effect universe. And as within the mass effect games we have had, none of them had earth shattering changes to the game but it felt good to know that what you had done previously got a nod from the devs to you for playing the series because you loved it.

[Iakus]

Kel Riever wrote...
Ah, we can go on about whether they cared or not.  Honestly, I would say this isn't an issue of caring but of just atrocious taste and lack of forethought (and possibly a rush job) on account of the people who mattered.

But the reason matters less to me than the result.  I mean, you know, if someone tried to put my car together well, and the tires fell off when I drove it, they might have cared, but it didn't mean they did their job.

Anyway, yes, I agree with the sentiment that you need an intelligent way to defeat 20,000 seriously over the top powerful space crabs.  But I do not subscribe to either that it needs to be a magic microphone, a supercool conventional war, or a big lecture.  It simply needs to be coherent and make sense in the context of the story (and well, at least basic logic).  And if you are making an RPG with choices that matter, well, there should be choices that matter....

Given how there are some genuinely good spots early on inteh game (like Tuchanka) and the general decline of quality from Thessia on makes me wonder if, by the vrery end, they simply stopped caring and wanted it to just end

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

iakus wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...
Ah, we can go on about whether they cared or not.  Honestly, I would say this isn't an issue of caring but of just atrocious taste and lack of forethought (and possibly a rush job) on account of the people who mattered.

But the reason matters less to me than the result.  I mean, you know, if someone tried to put my car together well, and the tires fell off when I drove it, they might have cared, but it didn't mean they did their job.

Anyway, yes, I agree with the sentiment that you need an intelligent way to defeat 20,000 seriously over the top powerful space crabs.  But I do not subscribe to either that it needs to be a magic microphone, a supercool conventional war, or a big lecture.  It simply needs to be coherent and make sense in the context of the story (and well, at least basic logic).  And if you are making an RPG with choices that matter, well, there should be choices that matter....

Given how there are some genuinely good spots early on inteh game (like Tuchanka) and the general decline of quality from Thessia on makes me wonder if, by the vrery end, they simply stopped caring and wanted it to just end

You get to the point after Thessia where you start looking at the end, and you start looking at the details. The fun of writing the story is over. You now have face the reality of what Drew set up. It's a mess. It's a frakking mess. How do we end this? Picture a squad of 12 having gotten by the last of the opposition now going to the panel to open the Citadel and it's a pretty long walk. And you're writing squad banter. You're talking about the journey and all of the stuff that you've done, all of it leading up to this moment, and it really dawns on you that you really can't beat them conventionally because of indoctrination. And the conversation starts going down that route. Then the conversation starts poking fun at the plot and how ridiculous the entire thing was. Now you've got to end it. You're idea of what this thing was supposed to do just changed. You just want it to end. The Crucible docks. Tali is there. She's playing with the control panel and a panel drops down with a button on it: "Press to Blow Up Reapers". Tali says "Who wants to do the honors?"   Javik says. "I will."  Hits button. Reapers blow up.  THE END. = stupid. This is what you were left with.

[Steelcan]

The whole idea of having sequels after the Reaper War isn't a terribly good idea no matter what the end of ME3 could have been.

[shingara]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

You get to the point after Thessia where you start looking at the end, and you start looking at the details. The fun of writing the story is over. You now have face the reality of what Drew set up. It's a mess. It's a frakking mess. How do we end this? Picture a squad of 12 having gotten by the last of the opposition now going to the panel to open the Citadel and it's a pretty long walk. And you're writing squad banter. You're talking about the journey and all of the stuff that you've done, all of it leading up to this moment, and it really dawns on you that you really can't beat them conventionally because of indoctrination. And the conversation starts going down that route. Then the conversation starts poking fun at the plot and how ridiculous the entire thing was. Now you've got to end it. You're idea of what this thing was supposed to do just changed. You just want it to end. The Crucible docks. Tali is there. She's playing with the control panel and a panel drops down with a button on it: "Press to Blow Up Reapers". Tali says "Who wants to do the honors?"   Javik says. "I will."  Hits button. Reapers blow up.  THE END. = stupid. This is what you were left with.

 Or you remove the weapon having to be joined to the citidel and some wierd never heard of ai who replaces harby as the bad guy, have the citedel captured like in all previous attacks, get rid of the star child, take the fight to the citidel, destroy the citidel and the reapers with a mix of space battle and ground battle, destroy harby with your entire crew in the mother of all boss fights.

 Once that is done have a quick cig and worry about the possible fighting that can come from the stuff that happened within the me3 universe like the genphage and remnants of the cerberus as an army and aria having the monster of a near impentitrable base who have become incredibly rich and armed due to the conflict. You dont have tobe shepard to take the game on from that point in a new title. They desereves a rest for sure but they dont need to be burned out of existance.

Modifié par shingara, 16 octobre 2013 - 08:02 .

[Reorte]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


You get to the point after Thessia where you start looking at the end, and you start looking at the details. The fun of writing the story is over. You now have face the reality of what Drew set up. It's a mess. It's a frakking mess. How do we end this? Picture a squad of 12 having gotten by the last of the opposition now going to the panel to open the Citadel and it's a pretty long walk. And you're writing squad banter. You're talking about the journey and all of the stuff that you've done, all of it leading up to this moment, and it really dawns on you that you really can't beat them conventionally because of indoctrination. And the conversation starts going down that route. Then the conversation starts poking fun at the plot and how ridiculous the entire thing was. Now you've got to end it. You're idea of what this thing was supposed to do just changed. You just want it to end. The Crucible docks. Tali is there. She's playing with the control panel and a panel drops down with a button on it: "Press to Blow Up Reapers". Tali says "Who wants to do the honors?"   Javik says. "I will."  Hits button. Reapers blow up.  THE END. = stupid. This is what you were left with.

More like dull and anti-climatic than stupid; at least it would fit with the rest of the game. Stupid was what we got trying to avoid that. By trying to avoid a problem they created a bigger one.