518 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

AndyAK79 wrote...

Fair enough, but it's worth pointing out that plenty of people do have a problem with the ending not being happy enough.

Well, they propose alternatives that are happier, anyway. But a lot of them keep telling me that's not the point. I guess it's just chance that the alternaives always come out happier.

[dreamgazer]

Kel Riever wrote...

And to add, just like I don't need people to die to make me feel emotion and pull at heart strings, neither do I need sacrifice. Sacrifice, nor death, nor any trope makes the ending decent. What makes it decent is the skill of the person making it, and whether they have the ability to apply their craft or not.

Agreed, but that's not an easy thing to do in every piece of fiction, and the Reapers are a variable that make it very difficult to do so while staying even remotely in the realm of suspending disbelief.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

Fair enough, but it's worth pointing out that plenty of people do have a problem with the ending not being happy enough.

Well, they propose alternatives that are happier, anyway. But a lot of them keep telling me that's not the point. I guess it's just chance that the alternaives always come out happier.

Do you blame them for being defensive, when they get mocked for wanting a brighter future for the character they spent five years playing?

[CronoDragoon]

I agree that many story arcs (and character arcs) are concluded during the course of ME3. The issue is that the endings are so disruptive to the world and characters (in that they leave both in a very precarious situation) that whatever closure was previously assumed was called into question. For example, the entire question of to what degree the various alien fleets are "trapped" in Sol system without the relays, or will at least have a rough time getting home, or to what degree the Normandy is stranded on gods-know what planet and whether or not the writers intended them to "found" a new colony there, scientific impossibility aside (the stargazer scene having a similar horizon to the Normandy jungle planet further complicating this issue).

In hindsight, after reading forum topics about all this, it's easier to conclude that the allied fleets can get back okay and that the Normandy wouldn't be permanently stranded. But these are inferences drawn from physics, astronomy, etc that aren't explicit in the ending. Should I be expected to know all this in order to conclude that all my in-game friends and allies aren't screwed? Is the point of ME knowing the particular arrangement of eezo and helium deposits that would enable safe return for the allied fleets? Even in threads explaining things people don't agree on the viability of a safe allied return, and really only people already versed in the relevant scientific areas would be able to distinguish good arguments from bad.

tl;dr My need of "closure" for the ME3 endings were more an immediate concern for the state of the galaxy and characters than a sense of emotional catharsis by seeing what everyone ended up doing with their lives. By comparison, I don't have much of a problem with DA2's ending, which ended rather abruptively but with the implicit assumption that the characters survived the ordeal to go and fight through another ordeal. That's closure enough for me.

Edit: The above is one reason I think the EC is a significant improvement on the endings.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:12 .

[Mathias]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

Fair enough, but it's worth pointing out that plenty of people do have a problem with the ending not being happy enough.

Well,
they propose alternatives that are happier, anyway. But a lot of them
keep telling me that's not the point. I guess it's just chance that the
alternaives always come out happier.

Do you blame
them for being defensive, when they get mocked for wanting a brighter
future for the character they spent five years playing?

Do you know how many times I've been mocked as someone who just wanted a Disney ending?

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:11 .

[Iakus]

Kel Riever wrote...

And to add, just like I don't need people to die to make me feel emotion and pull at heart strings, neither do I need sacrifice. Sacrifice, nor death, nor any trope makes the ending decent. What makes it decent is the skill of the person making it, and whether they have the ability to apply their craft or not.

Pretty much this.

I don't need five pounds of kale shoved down my throat to experience bitterness

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

And to add, just like I don't need people to die to make me feel emotion and pull at heart strings, neither do I need sacrifice. Sacrifice, nor death, nor any trope makes the ending decent. What makes it decent is the skill of the person making it, and whether they have the ability to apply their craft or not.

Pretty much this.

I don't need five pounds of kale shoved down my throat to experience bitterness

I had a sizable, delightful gourmet kale salad during my vacation last week.

[Kel Riever]

dreamgazer wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

And to add, just like I don't need people to die to make me feel emotion and pull at heart strings, neither do I need sacrifice. Sacrifice, nor death, nor any trope makes the ending decent. What makes it decent is the skill of the person making it, and whether they have the ability to apply their craft or not.

Agreed, but that's not an easy thing to do in every piece of fiction, and the Reapers are a variable that make it very difficult to do so while staying even remotely in the realm of suspending disbelief.

I think we are not really so much disagreeing, as kind of trying to point out what actually does make a good story (or in this case, a good video game) which is certainly a worthwhile topic.  Sacrifice, in this case, I meant as death.  Of course there are many different kinds of sacrifice, and I think my version of what you are saying goes like this:

In any drama, there are troughs and peaks.  At least emotional ones.  And the reader/player has to 'buy' them, at least accept the terms by which they are set.  That's how the reader/player becomes engaged.  So, your trough can be anything.  It could be a death.  It could be a sacrifice.  It could be another kind of loss, etc. etc.  The more convincing your trough, the greater chance you have of making an impat on the reader/player at the point of resolution...generally called a 'climax' right?  But I hesitate to use that word because it is generally associated with a positive resolution. 

So I think I can agree on these points:  Sacrifice can be a convincing trough.  A 'conventional victory' could have been a convincing resolution.  Neither will succeed without engaging the player in ME3.  So, that is the failure to me, of ME3 more so than whether the resolution needed to come off a sacrifice or needed to include conventional victory.

The only further point I want to make is to engage your player in ME3 you needed to be logical.  Also, given the primary (at least as far as I can tell) benefit of playing the ME series is making your own choices and discovering the outcomes, ME3 should have had choices worth making.  BUT, barring that, assuming maximum autodialogue, you STILL could have had an ending of impact if the choice (or lack thereof in this case) made sense, was convincing and engaged the player

~FIN!~  At least that's my point.  I will now step off the mat.

[Mathias]

I don't think Bioware is gonna let Casey Hudson have full creative reign with things like the ending ever again. That's my feeling. He shouldn't have done what he did, and he ended up costing his team and fans a lot of grief.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:15 .

[dreamgazer]

Kel, we're not in disagreement really, but I would definitely prefer something like the choice we were given in ME3's ending above an even more implausible power-trip rehash of other stories---ones that were hard to believe in their own right.

It just needed to be more coherent, restrained, and less ... uh, mystical.

[Redbelle]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

Fair enough, but it's worth pointing out that plenty of people do have a problem with the ending not being happy enough.

Well, they propose alternatives that are happier, anyway. But a lot of them keep telling me that's not the point. I guess it's just chance that the alternaives always come out happier.

Do you blame them for being defensive, when they get mocked for wanting a brighter future for the character they spent five years playing?

The resolution that came out of Bioware was very one dimensional. It's either these options that all have drawbacks. And you cannot change them through how you play.

That's not the BW I know. BW, with ME2 made a sliding scale of success in their suicide mission and DA:O's multiple ending's that are playthrough dependent is probably the best example of what I expected off the back of ME2.

Going with a Deus Ex ending instead of an ending that BW spent time to consider and develop...... It just felt like BW stopped trying with their own formula of game development. ME3 has BW moments. But it plays much more like what everyone else puts out onto the market.

[Iakus]

Redbelle wrote...

The resolution that came out of Bioware was very one dimensional. It's either these options that all have drawbacks. And you cannot change them through how you play.

That's not the BW I know. BW, with ME2 made a sliding scale of success in their suicide mission and DA:O's multiple ending's that are playthrough dependent is probably the best example of what I expected off the back of ME2.

Going with a Deus Ex ending instead of an ending that BW spent time to consider and develop...... It just felt like BW stopped trying with their own formula of game development. ME3 has BW moments. But it plays much more like what everyone else puts out onto the market.

That's exactly the feeling I got with the ending, both original and EC

Bioware simply stopped caring.  "Darker and Edgier" is the new flavor of the month.

Modifié par iakus, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:25 .

[Kel Riever]

dreamgazer wrote...

Kel, we're not in disagreement really, but I would definitely prefer something like the choice we were given in ME3's ending above an even more implausible power-trip rehash of other stories---ones that were hard to believe in their own right.

It just needed to be more coherent, restrained, and less ... uh, mystical.

With you there.  That's why you don't see me making boss fight arguements either. 

I'm telling you, if you just alt+F4 or unplug your console after "The best seats in the house" line, you get a more credible ending than everything that comes after, AND you still don't have much resolution, and no boss fight, and no choices to make about the galaxy....so...that's MY MEHEM 

[dreamgazer]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

Fair enough, but it's worth pointing out that plenty of people do have a problem with the ending not being happy enough.

Well,
they propose alternatives that are happier, anyway. But a lot of them
keep telling me that's not the point. I guess it's just chance that the
alternaives always come out happier.

Do you blame
them for being defensive, when they get mocked for wanting a brighter
future for the character they spent five years playing?

Do you know how many times I've been mocked as someone who just wanted a Disney ending?

Do you know how often those who liked (or tolerated) the ending have been mocked for being war criminals, BioWare apologists, and untrue fans? 

[Mathias]

To me, one of the best examples of multiple endings for a Bioware game came from DA:O.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Do you know how many times I've been mocked as someone who just wanted a Disney ending?

Do you know how often those who liked (or tolerated) the ending have been mocked for being war criminals, BioWare apologists, and untrue fans? 

Bioware wanted endings people would talk about.

Wish granted.

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

The resolution that came out of Bioware was very one dimensional. It's either these options that all have drawbacks. And you cannot change them through how you play.

That's not the BW I know. BW, with ME2 made a sliding scale of success in their suicide mission and DA:O's multiple ending's that are playthrough dependent is probably the best example of what I expected off the back of ME2.

Going with a Deus Ex ending instead of an ending that BW spent time to consider and develop...... It just felt like BW stopped trying with their own formula of game development. ME3 has BW moments. But it plays much more like what everyone else puts out onto the market.

That's exactly the feeling I got with the ending, both original and EC

Bioware simply stopped caring.  "Darker and Edgier" is the new flavor of the month.

I'd argue that many of the other "F*CK YEAH, GALAXY!" ending alternatives I've read would be far more indicative of BioWare simply phoning it in. But they're alright, because ... 

[Kel Riever]

DAO, Best BioWare game. Then ME1. Truly the Golden Age as far as I was concerned.

By the way, every time I see a 'Sheppard Deserves Better Fans' banner, I laugh at the irony that the person using the banner is probably most talking about themselves...

Footnote: Expect ME4 to either come with Cocaine or Razor Blades.  But not both!

Modifié par Kel Riever, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:30 .

[Mathias]

dreamgazer wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

Fair enough, but it's worth pointing out that plenty of people do have a problem with the ending not being happy enough.

Well,
they propose alternatives that are happier, anyway. But a lot of them
keep telling me that's not the point. I guess it's just chance that the
alternaives always come out happier.

Do you blame
them for being defensive, when they get mocked for wanting a brighter
future for the character they spent five years playing?

Do you know how many times I've been mocked as someone who just wanted a Disney ending?

Do you know how often those who liked (or tolerated) the ending have been mocked for being war criminals, BioWare apologists, and untrue fans? 

Hey, I don't go around doing that crap. I'll debate with them but that's it. Please don't try to discredit me by trying to show me the other side of the extreme, something of which I'm not guilty of.

[in it for the lolz]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

To me, one of the best examples of multiple endings for a Bioware game came from DA:O.

Sadly, we will never see a game like that come form Bioware ever again.

[dreamgazer]

StreetMagic wrote...

Not sure what's so bad about boss fights. It's an interactive and skill based medium. It works for games. Boss fights are a goddamn staple, dagnabbit.

When you look at the concepts for the ridiculous boss fight they left on the chopping block, it was definitely way too video-gamey.

You do get to take down a baby Reaper on foot. I mean, come on. 

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Bioware wanted endings people would talk about.

Wish granted.

Way to sidestep the counterpoint.

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

I'd argue that many of the other "F*CK YEAH, GALAXY!" ending alternatives I've read would be far more indicative of BioWare simply phoning it in. But they're alright, because ... 

Because it doesn't cause their audience to rise up in outrage?

It gives them a desirable sense of closure?

It doesn't make players feel like they did something wrong after completing the game?

Tell me, was the ending of Dragon Age: Origin "phoning it in"?