518 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Tell me, was the ending of Dragon Age: Origin "phoning it in"?

No, and neither was ME3. KOTOR's was, though.

[Kel Riever]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Tell me, was the ending of Dragon Age: Origin "phoning it in"?

No, and neither was ME3. KOTOR's was, though.

ME3 compared to DAO

Let's see, the ending(s) of ME3 sucked, and the endings of DAO were awesome.

Goes to show me that a Boss Fight is also not necessary to enjoy a game or make it better if it already sucks.

Though if you gotta be bad at what you do, again, give me the boss fight.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:37 .

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Tell me, was the ending of Dragon Age: Origin "phoning it in"?

You mean the high-fantasy story where anyone with a certain kind of magic inside them could be "sacrificed" in order to obtain a desired ending, or where you can produce a demon baby to sidestep all death?

[dreamgazer]

StreetMagic wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Not sure what's so bad about boss fights. It's an interactive and skill based medium. It works for games. Boss fights are a goddamn staple, dagnabbit.

When you look at the concepts for the ridiculous boss fight they left on the chopping block, it was definitely way too video-gamey.

You do get to take down a baby Reaper on foot. I mean, come on. 

I would have liked that last Destroyer fight if they had used more of my surrounding forces, and just provided a bigger backdrop for it, if you will. Instead it just revolved around the old 3 member TPS gameplay.

Now that I know Jack, Grunt, Zaeed, etc.. had audio for Priority Earth, it makes me wonder how much they really wanted to do during that whole mission.


edit: Oh wait, you meant ME2. My bad.

No, I mean ME3.  Though it's amusing that you can pretty much apply that logic to both games. 

[Kel Riever]

So missing what happens to the rest of the characters you shared your time with in ME3, like the scenes of your war assets. Not from the point of closure, but from the point of 'Isn't this what I spent my whole time doing all ME3? And then I barely see any of it in action?'

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...

Did you really feel that way about it, as you were playing the first time? To me, these were all tough choices.

Though I really like the Origins endings in general, the Dark Ritual was a cop-out of epic convuluted proportions. The fetus's "soul" wouldn't be fully formed enough to be tainted? I mean, come on. Perhaps if there are sufficient consequences in DA3 my opinion on how lame the DR was will change slightly, but it still makes virtually no sense.

[dreamgazer]

StreetMagic wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

Tell me, was the ending of Dragon Age: Origin "phoning it in"?

You mean the high-fantasy story where anyone with a certain kind of magic inside them could be "sacrificed" in order to obtain a desired ending, or where you can produce a demon baby to sidestep all death?

Did you really feel that way about it, as you were playing the first time? To me, these were all tough choices.

They are tough choices (and I dig that ending), but they're all shaped by another universe's high-fantasy concepts and you do have some extremely convenient ways to design the ending of your choosing---especially when you consider Loghain and Morrigan's offer. 

[in it for the lolz]

CronoDragoon wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Did you really feel that way about it, as you were playing the first time? To me, these were all tough choices.

Though I really like the Origins endings in general, the Dark Ritual was a cop-out of epic convuluted proportions. The fetus's "soul" wouldn't be fully formed enough to be tainted? I mean, come on. Perhaps if there are sufficient consequences in DA3 my opinion on how lame the DR was will change slightly, but it still makes virtually no sense.

Seeing as how Bioware likes to do "consequences" in their games. The DR will most likey get talked about for a bit in DA3 and nothing more.

[Deverz]

AndyAK79 wrote...

Deverz wrote...

Yeah, evidently that didn't work so well for most people. BW treated the whole game as an ending, and failed to pay it all off in the conclusion, making it feel like every decision you made along the way was for nothing. And then there was literally no closure on the fate of your friends, the races that were united for the fight for Earth, and every choice you made. Mass Relays were gone, bye bye space travel. Galaxy was a wasteland. Not even the last choice had any closure.

Plenty of decisions are addressed in the conclusion - at least in the EC (I'll admit the original ending doesn't, but my general argument still applies).

There is plenty of closure on the fate of your friends and the races that were united for earth. They were just resolved before the ending. The ending is substantial in length anyway. I don't think another half an hour nodding to every decision I made and giving me a complete biography on every character's life thereafter would have any dramatic value ("Ooh, look, Garrus became Primarch, Woah Ashley ended up an Admiral, Cool,Wrex joined the council... how long does this go on for? I desperately need to wee.")

Lol, sorry for the rambling. I was talking about the original ending.

As I said though I am fairly happy with the EC for the most part in terms of closure.

[AndyAK79]

I think it's fair at this point to regard the EC as the endings proper. I still think the original endings stand up far better than generally suggested, but it's hard to deny that some of the criticisms carry far more weight before the EC.

Bioware clearly listened to the criticisms and expanded the endings to fill in some plot holes and include some additional scenes. I don't think think this could be done in any way other than as DLC because of the sheer size of it. Anyway, I tend to think of the EC as canon (and I can think of no legitimate reason why this shouldn't be the case) and think it makes more sense to argue about the endings as they stand, rather than as they used to be.

Also, despite the fact that this thread isn't about happy endings, and started with Kel Riever saying that happy endings aren't what people are annoyed about, this thread already has quite a few posts saying that the ending wasn't happy enough. Please, please stop this madness.

[CronoDragoon]

Yeah my post was about the OEs, because having been on here a lot during March 2012 that's when the closure crisis was at its peak. After the EC that sort of died down, and now the closure argument is limited almost exclusively to Destroy Shepard, which is another version of the "want a reunion scene" thingy.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 octobre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Reorte]

AndyAK79 wrote...

Also, despite the fact that this thread isn't about happy endings, and started with Kel Riever saying that happy endings aren't what people are annoyed about, this thread already has quite a few posts saying that the ending wasn't happy enough. Please, please stop this madness.

I've said it before and I'll happily say it again - it wasn't happy in the areas that really matter, and was rather cheesily too happy in others (i.e. nothing at a personal level but completely and utterly glossing over the damage and loss at the galatic level).

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

They are tough choices (and I dig that ending), but they're all shaped by another universe's high-fantasy concepts and you do have some extremely convenient ways to design the ending of your choosing---especially when you consider Loghain and Morrigan's offer. 

And Mass Effect in general (let alone ME3) isn't simply loaded with fantasy concepts?  One of the bigger complaints about the series is how it acumulated more and more space magic as the series went on.  And then the ending went full-on psuedomystical Messiah-Complex. 

So yeah, I think something closer to DAO would have been entirely appropriate.  Heck, leave out the Dark Ritual even.  I don't consider that the "best" ending anyway.

"Design the ending of your own choosing" is the very heart of making choices matter.  Pulling the rug out from under the player in the home stretch is to me nothing short of disrespecting the players.  Especially the ones who have been following the game fro five years.

[sveners]

dreamgazer wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

Tell me, was the ending of Dragon Age: Origin "phoning it in"?

You mean the high-fantasy story where anyone with a certain kind of magic inside them could be "sacrificed" in order to obtain a desired ending, or where you can produce a demon baby to sidestep all death?

Did you really feel that way about it, as you were playing the first time? To me, these were all tough choices.

They are tough choices (and I dig that ending), but they're all shaped by another universe's high-fantasy concepts and you do have some extremely convenient ways to design the ending of your choosing---especially when you consider Loghain and Morrigan's offer. 

I don't understand.. Do you think that was wrong? To give us ways to design the ending of our choosing?

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

"Design the ending of your own choosing" is the very heart of making choices matter.  Pulling the rug out from under the player in the home stretch is to me nothing short of disrespecting the players.  Especially the ones who have been following the game fro five years.

You can't design the ending of your choosing in Origins, either. The ME3 endings are not lacking on variety or choice but rather acceptable consequences.

[AndyAK79]

dreamgazer wrote...

Do you know how often those who liked (or tolerated) the ending have been mocked for being war criminals, BioWare apologists, and untrue fans? 

Thus speaks the voice of reason. I think there are valid points on both sides, but it does get a little tiring being accused of some mental deficiency (often with no reference to any original point) for liking the endings (my very favourite post suggested that I must be uneducated as a result of my support for the endings - again no reference to anything I'd posted was supplied).

People who defend the endings have as much right to their view as the people who detest them, but you wouldn't think it looking at some of the responses. My view is that intelligent people discuss the points of an argument, rather than calling the other person an idiot, but what would an idiot like me know?

P.S. Loving the point about Dragon Age. I didn't really give it much thought (perils of being an idiot), but the ending really does have some epic plot lurches.

[Arcian]

AndyAK79 wrote...

The arguments about Mass Effect 3 seem (to me at least) to fall into three main categories; the downbeat nature of the ending and the impossibility of a perfect resolution, the issue of choices not being reflected in the ending, and the various threads of the Mass Effect story (and the choices therein) not being reflected in a satisfactory way in the ending. The stories, in other words, were not given proper 'closure.'

Not only was the closure improper, it was also completely devoid of logic and coherence.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

"Design the ending of your own choosing" is the very heart of making choices matter.  Pulling the rug out from under the player in the home stretch is to me nothing short of disrespecting the players.  Especially the ones who have been following the game fro five years.

You can't design the ending of your choosing in Origins, either. The ME3 endings are not lacking on variety or choice but rather acceptable consequences.

Granted there is no total control.  But I submit that DAO allowed for a far, far greater level of nuance than ME3, even with EC, could hope to give.


And I'd say that acceptable consequences is the foundation of choosing an ending.  If none of the consequences are accetable, then what is the point of continuing?  And if you see no point in continuing, where is the closure?

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Granted there is no total control.  But I submit that DAO allowed for a far, far greater level of nuance than ME3, even with EC, could hope to give.

Well, I hope you'll explain this since it's been awhile since I played Origins.

And I'd say that acceptable consequences is the foundation of choosing an ending.  If none of the consequences are accetable, then what is the point of continuing?  And if you see no point in continuing, where is the closure?

I was not belittling but merely trying to properly identify the issue.

[dreamgazer]

sveners wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

They are tough choices (and I dig that ending), but they're all shaped by another universe's high-fantasy concepts and you do have some extremely convenient ways to design the ending of your choosing---especially when you consider Loghain and Morrigan's offer. 

I don't understand.. Do you think that was wrong? To give us ways to design the ending of our choosing?

Not exactly, but I do think the easy availability of those alternative choices is suspect, and it's a hell of a lot easier to do in a high-fantasy environment involving magic blood and old god babies.

[Kel Riever]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I don't know if other sci-fi fans are pickier than me or if I'm easy to please, but I never really agree or connect with the issues that most fans have with certain series. I think you hit the nail right on the head OP. A lot of the character arcs were personally ended with Shepard and implicitly ended with the slides in the epilogue. The most disappointing aspect is and always has been, for me, the idea that I had to build up an entire army just to gain access to the Citadel to make the final decision. It makes no sense to make your tagline "take back Earth", focus the entire game on building an army, then having none of those really hold any significance in the end. However, they made up for it by having the army gathering as a catalyst for many of the deep seeded issues in the Mass Effect universe becoming resolved. So the concept does serve it's purpose, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the ending; that's the main reason why the ending feels so disconnected; however, they managed to connect the Crucible to the main plot by having it's building correlate with the army building.

Honestly, the issues with the ending (post-EC) have more to do with personal expectations rather than any actual issues with the writing. We can get into logical science debates all we want, but I believe Mass Effect has never been a logical science game. The ending is the culmination of the themes within the universe, and it was set up within the context of the plot. In that sense it is logical.

But it isn't, not even in the context of its own story.  That's what I am saying.  Call it a space fantasy, call it whatever you want...in the context of whatever you want to call it, Mass Effect contradicts itself, is unpalatable in its explanation, and further insults the gamer with a lack of choice of merit.

Anyway, I see you have a Lacuna Coil banner.  Therefore you get a pass because you have good taste in music.