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The endings and the issue of closure


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#76
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Kel Riever wrote...


But it isn't, not even in the context of its own story.  That's what I am saying.  Call it a space fantasy, call it whatever you want...in the context of whatever you want to call it, Mass Effect contradicts itself, is unpalatable in its explanation, and further insults the gamer with a lack of choice of merit.

Anyway, I see you have a Lacuna Coil banner.  Therefore you get a pass because you have good taste in music. Image IPB


Why thank you sir, I always enjoy meeting people with good tastes in music. ;)

What part of the writing do you feel is contradictory or too vague?

#77
AndyAK79

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Reorte wrote...

I've said it before and I'll happily say it again - it wasn't happy in the areas that really matter, and was rather cheesily too happy in others (i.e. nothing at a personal level but completely and utterly glossing over the damage and loss at the galatic level).


Okay, so... Death of Shepard and/or EDI as well as the death of Anderson produces 'nothing' and the billions dead, earth in ruins, destruction of the Geth/Quarians and near-destruction of the Mass Relays is 'utterly glossing over the damage and loss at the galactic level'. I don't really know where you are coming from, but Kudos for being the only person in the world who seems to be arguing that the endings weren't miserable enough.

#78
Reorte

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AndyAK79 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

I've said it before and I'll happily say it again - it wasn't happy in the areas that really matter, and was rather cheesily too happy in others (i.e. nothing at a personal level but completely and utterly glossing over the damage and loss at the galatic level).


Okay, so... Death of Shepard and/or EDI as well as the death of Anderson produces 'nothing' and the billions dead, earth in ruins, destruction of the Geth/Quarians and near-destruction of the Mass Relays is 'utterly glossing over the damage and loss at the galactic level'. I don't really know where you are coming from, but Kudos for being the only person in the world who seems to be arguing that the endings weren't miserable enough.

You know those things have happened but they're pretty much ignored in the EC ending slides, which don't really show any of that at all. The "nothing" part was for the "happy" aspect - there's nothing there at a personal level. So more happiness personally, more misery galatically please. That would even manage to strike the oft-mentioned "bittersweet" tone. Since "reuinion" often gets mentioned I'll run with that for the sake of it - have it against the backdrop of the losses, so that it doesn't become "Little blue babies or house on Rannoch time" but "All this devastation but at least we can take some comfort from each other".

#79
dreamgazer

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The Mad Hanar wrote...

We can get into logical science debates all we want, but I believe Mass Effect has never been a logical science game.


Hogwash! How dare thou insult such a series that started with mental ciphers and cloned asari mooks from the orifice of a giant mind-controlling plant!

#80
Han Shot First

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Lack of closure was a valid complaint after the original endings.

After the EC, not so much. There is plenty of closure, regardless of whether or not a person likes the Extended Cut endings. There isn't much mystery there.

#81
AndyAK79

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iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

"Design the ending of your own choosing" is the very heart of making choices matter.  Pulling the rug out from under the player in the home stretch is to me nothing short of disrespecting the players.  Especially the ones who have been following the game fro five years.


You can't design the ending of your choosing in Origins, either. The ME3 endings are not lacking on variety or choice but rather acceptable consequences.


Granted there is no total control.  But I submit that DAO allowed for a far, far greater level of nuance than ME3, even with EC, could hope to give.


And I'd say that acceptable consequences is the foundation of choosing an ending.  If none of the consequences are accetable, then what is the point of continuing?  And if you see no point in continuing, where is the closure?


What? How is having sex with someone (when you may well be in a relationship with someone else) to produce a demon child that may threaten the future of the world an 'acceptable consequence'. Of course it's that or death - surely this isn't an 'acceptable consequence.' You could get your friend to produce the demon baby or, even better, just get him to die instead. Is one of these your 'acceptable concequences?'

You seem to confuse an acceptable consequence with a consequence that is acceptable to you. Unless you want Bioware to telephone you personally before finishing a game this is likely to be a problem that repeats itself at some point.

#82
CronoDragoon

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dreamgazer wrote...
Hogwash! How dare thou insult such a series that started with mental ciphers and cloned asari mooks with full body armor from the orifice of a giant mind-controlling plant!


Yeah....

#83
Kel Riever

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The Mad Hanar wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...


But it isn't, not even in the context of its own story.  That's what I am saying.  Call it a space fantasy, call it whatever you want...in the context of whatever you want to call it, Mass Effect contradicts itself, is unpalatable in its explanation, and further insults the gamer with a lack of choice of merit.

Anyway, I see you have a Lacuna Coil banner.  Therefore you get a pass because you have good taste in music. Image IPB


Why thank you sir, I always enjoy meeting people with good tastes in music. ;)

What part of the writing do you feel is contradictory or too vague?


Fair question.  I have said from the get-go (and this is generally part of the autodialogue arguement, but I'm not even going there) that if the premise of Starbrat is that the reason for his 'solution' is that sythetics and organics always come to conflict, that not only is that refuted in the entire series, but is refuted within ME3 itself.  It is not my arguement.  This has been said multiple times by multiple people and for all the reasons you know.  Simply put, as we all are aware, the Geth and the Quarians have the ability to make peace.  But even if they don't, EDI is example enough that what the catalyst says it isn't true.

SO, the Catalyst says it made a big mistake.  Therefore....wait a second...it railroads you into synthesis?   Because, hold on a second...THAT is the only way for them to understand each other?  When they just did without synthesis?  And you, the player, never have the opportunity to refute that?  Or you have to choose controlling the Reapers?  Or destroying them?  (and wait, that means you have to kill Geth and EDI because of...CODE?  Did the people writing the game ever use a computer?)

Right, you got the whole thing.  I think it is pretty obvious, at least to me, that those responsible for the ending never did their work.  IF THEY HAD, ME3 would have been a different story.  Easily, FAR too easily, there could have been consistency made to support the Catalysts point of view.  Alternatively, and even more easily, an actually plausable reasoning could have been provided by the Catalyst which made an iota of sense within the story of ME3...at least...if not the series.

So, there you have it.  We can talk intentions, or what the studio really wanted to do, or deadlines, or comparing ME3 to other rather awful video game stories.  But when ME3 went to print, and even after the EC, it is a failure from the point of view of story, or rpg, even if we get rid of categorizing it as science fiction.

#84
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The Mad Hanar wrote...

A lot of the character arcs were personally ended with Shepard and implicitly ended with the slides in the epilogue.


It depends how you play to judge if a character arc is resolved. Not everyone likes/values the same characters, not everyone said the same things to them through the course of the series, not everyone romanced one. It's easy to feel satisfied with how some storyarcs were handled if they were average or minor characters to you, but the sense of satisfaction might be different (or non-existent) to others.

As for the epilogues, I don't know what good they are, in the case of Jack/Miranda romances. They're just staring in the sky, alone. It reminds me of Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights.. are they going to go crazy and do that forever? :lol:

Modifié par StreetMagic, 09 octobre 2013 - 05:48 .


#85
CronoDragoon

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AndyAK79 wrote...

What? How is having sex with someone (when you may well be in a relationship with someone else) to produce a demon child that may threaten the future of the world an 'acceptable consequence'.


Because it's still a question mark in the minds of players, so since it didn't produce actual concete consequences in the game, there essentially are none. The player can headcanon that nothing bad happens, or at least isn't confronted with the downside to their actions. Similar to those who have no issues whatsoever about curing the genophage.

Like I said, this may change if the OGB kills your LI in Inquisition. Oh MAN the QQing that would instigate.

#86
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CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
Granted there is no total control.  But I submit that DAO allowed for a far, far greater level of nuance than ME3, even with EC, could hope to give.


Well, I hope you'll explain this since it's been awhile since I played Origins.


The ending can feel very different based on who lived and who died.  Who the LI was.  Origin.  It determines who you get to speak with, what boon you can ask for.  You get a final conversation with each companion (not just a goodbye).  Even a dead Warden gets a funeral where who speaks and what is said is dertermined by all of the above.

And I'd say that acceptable consequences is the foundation of choosing an ending.  If none of the consequences are accetable, then what is the point of continuing?  And if you see no point in continuing, where is the closure?


I was not belittling but merely trying to properly identify the issue.


I'd say it was pretty well identified.

Those who feel the need to turn off the game during Priority: Earth never really get closure.

#87
Kel Riever

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CronoDragoon wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...

What? How is having sex with someone (when you may well be in a relationship with someone else) to produce a demon child that may threaten the future of the world an 'acceptable consequence'.


Because it's still a question mark in the minds of players, so since it didn't produce actual concete consequences in the game, there essentially are none. The player can headcanon that nothing bad happens, or at least isn't confronted with the downside to their actions. Similar to those who have no issues whatsoever about curing the genophage.

Like I said, this may change if the OGB kills your LI in Inquisition. Oh MAN the QQing that would instigate.


Maybe, but if it actually made sense, and the reason didn't stink to high heaven, and it actually created the proper amount of drama instead of being a fallback excuse for a bad plot...people might actually be intrigued.  Look, examples of where BioWare succeeded in character loss....the Virmire Survivor, possible crew loss on the Suicide Mission, Dragon Age Loghain vs. Alistair, the decision you make at the end of DAO about your own character...

Modifié par Kel Riever, 09 octobre 2013 - 05:53 .


#88
AndyAK79

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dreamgazer wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

We can get into logical science debates all we want, but I believe Mass Effect has never been a logical science game.


Hogwash! How dare thou insult such a series that started with mental ciphers and cloned asari mooks from the orifice of a giant mind-controlling plant!


Also, people control gravity with their minds. Also, a mono-gendered species reproduces by recoding their DNA - which can involve sex, if they feel like it. Also, in Mass Effect 1, Omni-Gel opens doors, hacks computers and can be created by breaking guns. Also... Nah, lets just leave it there, shall we?

Modifié par AndyAK79, 09 octobre 2013 - 05:54 .


#89
dreamgazer

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iakus wrote...

Those who feel the need to turn off the game during Priority: Earth never really get closure.


Strange, considering there's an actual solution to defeating the mecha-Cthulhu at the end of that mission, which is a miracle in and of itself. 

#90
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Kel Riever wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...


But it isn't, not even in the context of its own story.  That's what I am saying.  Call it a space fantasy, call it whatever you want...in the context of whatever you want to call it, Mass Effect contradicts itself, is unpalatable in its explanation, and further insults the gamer with a lack of choice of merit.

Anyway, I see you have a Lacuna Coil banner.  Therefore you get a pass because you have good taste in music. Image IPB


Why thank you sir, I always enjoy meeting people with good tastes in music. ;)

What part of the writing do you feel is contradictory or too vague?


Fair question.  I have said from the get-go (and this is generally part of the autodialogue arguement, but I'm not even going there) that if the premise of Starbrat is that the reason for his 'solution' is that sythetics and organics always come to conflict, that not only is that refuted in the entire series, but is refuted within ME3 itself.  It is not my arguement.  This has been said multiple times by multiple people and for all the reasons you know.  Simply put, as we all are aware, the Geth and the Quarians have the ability to make peace.  But even if they don't, EDI is example enough that what the catalyst says it isn't true.

SO, the Catalyst says it made a big mistake.  Therefore....wait a second...it railroads you into synthesis?   Because, hold on a second...THAT is the only way for them to understand each other?  When they just did without synthesis?  And you, the player, never have the opportunity to refute that?  Or you have to choose controlling the Reapers?  Or destroying them?  (and wait, that means you have to kill Geth and EDI because of...CODE?  Did the people writing the game ever use a computer?)

Right, you got the whole thing.  I think it is pretty obvious, at least to me, that those responsible for the ending never did their work.  IF THEY HAD, ME3 would have been a different story.  Easily, FAR too easily, there could have been consistency made to support the Catalysts point of view.  Alternatively, and even more easily, an actually plausable reasoning could have been provided by the Catalyst which made an iota of sense within the story of ME3...at least...if not the series.

So, there you have it.  We can talk intentions, or what the studio really wanted to do, or deadlines, or comparing ME3 to other rather awful video game stories.  But when ME3 went to print, and even after the EC, it is a failure from the point of view of story, or rpg, even if we get rid of categorizing it as science fiction.


Yeah, I think those are pretty valid criticisms, and it is next to impossible to actaully refute those arguments with actual in-game context. I think the writers thought that having a choice in how you chose to end the war was enough; they felt that Shepard didn't need to say that the Catalyst was wrong, but he could show the Catalyst that he was wrong through his actions. The issue with this concept is that video game players are accustomed to having the perfect or optimal ending. I mean, we've spent hours upon hours playing this game. Why not give us a reward for all that time? As much as I deplore having to use DLC evidence for the main plot, we are shown that the Catalyst is a flawed creation from a flawed speicies. Therefore, anything that he does is flawed. Since we have to choose from one of his decisions (we've been shown that the Reapers are more powerful than us) we have to choose a flawed decision; which as a video game player, we hate. That's why I always go back to fan and author expectations. The fans expect certain things from the author, and the author expects the fans to understand his/her points, no matter how vague they are. The way they wrote the final scene made them seem contradictory, but I don't think they were trying to be contradictory. However, results are much more important than effort, so I'll admit that you have a stronger point than me.

#91
dreamgazer

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AndyAK79 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

We can get into logical science debates all we want, but I believe Mass Effect has never been a logical science game.


Hogwash! How dare thou insult such a series that started with mental ciphers and cloned asari mooks from the orifice of a giant mind-controlling plant!


Also, people control gravity with their minds. Also, a mono-gendered species reproduces by recoding their DNA - which can involve sex, if they feel like it. Also, in Mass Effect 1, Omni-Gel opens doors, hacks computers and can be created by breaking guns. Also... Nah, lets just leave it there, shall we?


See, I'm totally fine with peripheral, atmospheric world-building stuff like that.  Omni-gel makes me chuckle. 

It's when it becomes absolutely essential to the plot that it blips on my critical radar. 

#92
Iakus

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dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

Those who feel the need to turn off the game during Priority: Earth never really get closure.


Strange, considering there's an actual solution to defeating the mecha-Cthulhu at the end of that mission, which is a miracle in and of itself. 


So?  It still leads to the Citadel and the Catalyst.  Why bother at that point?


And actually the destroyer is a great example of the futility of the end.  You see a human, a turian, an asari, and a krogan battling the reaper side by side.  Yet all their efforts are fought nought.  They all burn and die.

#93
Kel Riever

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The Mad Hanar wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...


But it isn't, not even in the context of its own story.  That's what I am saying.  Call it a space fantasy, call it whatever you want...in the context of whatever you want to call it, Mass Effect contradicts itself, is unpalatable in its explanation, and further insults the gamer with a lack of choice of merit.

Anyway, I see you have a Lacuna Coil banner.  Therefore you get a pass because you have good taste in music. Image IPB


Why thank you sir, I always enjoy meeting people with good tastes in music. ;)

What part of the writing do you feel is contradictory or too vague?


Fair question.  I have said from the get-go (and this is generally part of the autodialogue arguement, but I'm not even going there) that if the premise of Starbrat is that the reason for his 'solution' is that sythetics and organics always come to conflict, that not only is that refuted in the entire series, but is refuted within ME3 itself.  It is not my arguement.  This has been said multiple times by multiple people and for all the reasons you know.  Simply put, as we all are aware, the Geth and the Quarians have the ability to make peace.  But even if they don't, EDI is example enough that what the catalyst says it isn't true.

SO, the Catalyst says it made a big mistake.  Therefore....wait a second...it railroads you into synthesis?   Because, hold on a second...THAT is the only way for them to understand each other?  When they just did without synthesis?  And you, the player, never have the opportunity to refute that?  Or you have to choose controlling the Reapers?  Or destroying them?  (and wait, that means you have to kill Geth and EDI because of...CODE?  Did the people writing the game ever use a computer?)

Right, you got the whole thing.  I think it is pretty obvious, at least to me, that those responsible for the ending never did their work.  IF THEY HAD, ME3 would have been a different story.  Easily, FAR too easily, there could have been consistency made to support the Catalysts point of view.  Alternatively, and even more easily, an actually plausable reasoning could have been provided by the Catalyst which made an iota of sense within the story of ME3...at least...if not the series.

So, there you have it.  We can talk intentions, or what the studio really wanted to do, or deadlines, or comparing ME3 to other rather awful video game stories.  But when ME3 went to print, and even after the EC, it is a failure from the point of view of story, or rpg, even if we get rid of categorizing it as science fiction.


Yeah, I think those are pretty valid criticisms, and it is next to impossible to actaully refute those arguments with actual in-game context. I think the writers thought that having a choice in how you chose to end the war was enough; they felt that Shepard didn't need to say that the Catalyst was wrong, but he could show the Catalyst that he was wrong through his actions. The issue with this concept is that video game players are accustomed to having the perfect or optimal ending. I mean, we've spent hours upon hours playing this game. Why not give us a reward for all that time? As much as I deplore having to use DLC evidence for the main plot, we are shown that the Catalyst is a flawed creation from a flawed speicies. Therefore, anything that he does is flawed. Since we have to choose from one of his decisions (we've been shown that the Reapers are more powerful than us) we have to choose a flawed decision; which as a video game player, we hate. That's why I always go back to fan and author expectations. The fans expect certain things from the author, and the author expects the fans to understand his/her points, no matter how vague they are. The way they wrote the final scene made them seem contradictory, but I don't think they were trying to be contradictory. However, results are much more important than effort, so I'll admit that you have a stronger point than me.


Best friends?Image IPB

Nah, you've always attempted to keep it logical.  Which I respect.

#94
CronoDragoon

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iakus wrote...
And actually the destroyer is a great example of the futility of the end.  You see a human, a turian, an asari, and a krogan battling the reaper side by side.  Yet all their efforts are fought nought.  They all burn and die.


Yes, clearly 4 soldiers should take out a Hades cannon because themes.

A crew comprised of (in my game) a human, asari, and quarian fend off hordes of Reapers and then blow up the Hades cannon.

#95
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D'aaw you're makin' me blush. :P

#96
AndyAK79

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Kel Riever wrote...

SO, the Catalyst says it made a big mistake. Therefore....wait a second...it railroads you into synthesis? Because, hold on a second...THAT is the only way for them to understand each other? When they just did without synthesis? And you, the player, never have the opportunity to refute that? Or you have to choose controlling the Reapers? Or destroying them? (and wait, that means you have to kill Geth and EDI because of...CODE? Did the people writing the game ever use a computer?)


The Catalyst doesn't railroad you into choosing synthesis, it's one of three options. You can refute what the catalyst is saying by choosing one of the other options. If you are that dead set against all the options you can choose refuse; the consequences are catastrophic, but Shepard doesn't know that so from a character point of view its as valid a choice as any. Shepards choices are limited just as they often are in reality; what would you do in Shepards situation that the game doesn't allow?

Also, what is it you think you know about CODE that the writers don't?

#97
AndyAK79

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dreamgazer wrote...

AndyAK79 wrote...


Also, people control gravity with their minds. Also, a mono-gendered species reproduces by recoding their DNA - which can involve sex, if they feel like it. Also, in Mass Effect 1, Omni-Gel opens doors, hacks computers and can be created by breaking guns. Also... Nah, lets just leave it there, shall we?


See, I'm totally fine with peripheral, atmospheric world-building stuff like that.  Omni-gel makes me chuckle. 



I ammend my original statement. Omni-Gel opens doors, hacks computers, can be created by breaking guns and makes you chuckle.
 
It does everything! Image IPB

#98
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Game conclusions used to be about effort/skill/investment. You jump on the toadstool, you crush his head, you get past the point he was guarding. Simple cause and effect. You put this time in here, beat this guy over there, and you eventually unlock the better outcome than if you didn't do those things.

Now progression and completion is strictly about the dictates of writers. I think that sets a bad precedent, for an interactive medium.

I don't really have anything more to say than that. I can deal with the endings (and even like some of the premises), but I don't think this is a good model to follow or hold up as "great". The ending's tie-in to actual gameplay is too removed (it's still there however. You don't get to unlock the better endings without high enough war assets, but still.. it's very abstract. It's not very hands on, involved type of ending).

Modifié par StreetMagic, 09 octobre 2013 - 06:18 .


#99
Kel Riever

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AndyAK79 wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

SO, the Catalyst says it made a big mistake. Therefore....wait a second...it railroads you into synthesis? Because, hold on a second...THAT is the only way for them to understand each other? When they just did without synthesis? And you, the player, never have the opportunity to refute that? Or you have to choose controlling the Reapers? Or destroying them? (and wait, that means you have to kill Geth and EDI because of...CODE? Did the people writing the game ever use a computer?)


The Catalyst doesn't railroad you into choosing synthesis, it's one of three options. You can refute what the catalyst is saying by choosing one of the other options. If you are that dead set against all the options you can choose refuse; the consequences are catastrophic, but Shepard doesn't know that so from a character point of view its as valid a choice as any. Shepards choices are limited just as they often are in reality; what would you do in Shepards situation that the game doesn't allow?

Also, what is it you think you know about CODE that the writers don't?


You should (anyone should) know the answer to the second question.

The first is a bit of hyperbole, however, it stems from the common perception of placing Synthesis up at the top of the tree for ending unlockables.  Again, this is not my point, but is a widely held (and I believe correct) assumption that by placing Synthesis at the top, and also having the Catalyst literally say, 'This is the best solution,' that BioWare intended this choice to be the best. 

Really, imo, if I was restructuring that tree, I would have put High EMS destroy as the 'best' choice, and put Synthesis at the absolute bottom.  In other words, Synthesis would be what you unlock with the lowest amount of war assets that allowed you to succeed.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 09 octobre 2013 - 06:17 .


#100
Reorte

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Kel Riever wrote...

Really, imo, if I was restructuring that tree, I would have put High EMS destroy as the 'best' choice, and put Synthesis at the absolute bottom.  In other words, Synthesis would be what you unlock with the lowest amount of war assets that allowed you to succeed.

High EMS Destroy with breath scene is the one that requires the highest EMS though.