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The endings and the issue of closure


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#101
Iakus

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CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
And actually the destroyer is a great example of the futility of the end.  You see a human, a turian, an asari, and a krogan battling the reaper side by side.  Yet all their efforts are fought nought.  They all burn and die.


Yes, clearly 4 soldiers should take out a Hades cannon because themes.

A crew comprised of (in my game) a human, asari, and quarian fend off hordes of Reapers and then blow up the Hades cannon.


It's symbolic.

In the end, nothing matters.  It doesn't matter that these groups who normally wouldn't trust each other are fighting in common cause.  They're still going to burn.  They're just as trapped as Shepard is.

#102
Kel Riever

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Reorte wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

Really, imo, if I was restructuring that tree, I would have put High EMS destroy as the 'best' choice, and put Synthesis at the absolute bottom.  In other words, Synthesis would be what you unlock with the lowest amount of war assets that allowed you to succeed.

High EMS Destroy with breath scene is the one that requires the highest EMS though.


Yes, sorry, you know, I still have that nonsense carried over in my brain.  What I meant was All Destroy Endings above Control, and all control above Synthesis.

#103
dreamgazer

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iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
And actually the destroyer is a great example of the futility of the end.  You see a human, a turian, an asari, and a krogan battling the reaper side by side.  Yet all their efforts are fought nought.  They all burn and die.


Yes, clearly 4 soldiers should take out a Hades cannon because themes.

A crew comprised of (in my game) a human, asari, and quarian fend off hordes of Reapers and then blow up the Hades cannon.


It's symbolic.

In the end, nothing matters.  It doesn't matter that these groups who normally wouldn't trust each other are fighting in common cause.  They're still going to burn.  They're just as trapped as Shepard is.


Together, they actually helped Shepard push through London so that s/he might fire the Crucible. Who knows what would have happened if the other forces hadn't been there for support? 

And yes, the Reapers are exceptionally formidable.  They've been doing their thing for eons, and it's been successful for a reason. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 09 octobre 2013 - 06:25 .


#104
Reorte

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Kel Riever wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

Really, imo, if I was restructuring that tree, I would have put High EMS destroy as the 'best' choice, and put Synthesis at the absolute bottom.  In other words, Synthesis would be what you unlock with the lowest amount of war assets that allowed you to succeed.

High EMS Destroy with breath scene is the one that requires the highest EMS though.


Yes, sorry, you know, I still have that nonsense carried over in my brain.  What I meant was All Destroy Endings above Control, and all control above Synthesis.

Whilst I agree that Synthesis should be at the bottom of the pile I think it would work better if Control or Destroy depended more upon your choices throughout the games (not just in the extreme case of based on one choice if you've got very low EMS).

#105
jontepwn

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Kel Riever wrote...

Fair question.  I have said from the get-go (and this is generally part of the autodialogue arguement, but I'm not even going there) that if the premise of Starbrat is that the reason for his 'solution' is that sythetics and organics always come to conflict, that not only is that refuted in the entire series, but is refuted within ME3 itself.  It is not my arguement.  This has been said multiple times by multiple people and for all the reasons you know.  Simply put, as we all are aware, the Geth and the Quarians have the ability to make peace.  But even if they don't, EDI is example enough that what the catalyst says it isn't true.

SO, the Catalyst says it made a big mistake.  Therefore....wait a second...it railroads you into synthesis?   Because, hold on a second...THAT is the only way for them to understand each other?  When they just did without synthesis?  And you, the player, never have the opportunity to refute that?


This is one of the things that really annoyed me. In Control, if peace is achieved the geth (presumably) just up and leave Rannoch and live in seclusion. The slideshow doesn't show them together. So what was the "You are welcome to return to Rannoch, Admiral Raan. With us." all about? No, only in Synthesis do they stay together on Rannoch. The hell, Bioware?

Only thing worse than having 3 bad endings is having the game insist on you picking the worst one.

#106
Reorte

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dreamgazer wrote...

Together, they actually helped Shepard push through London so that s/he might actually fire the Crucible. Who knows what would have happened if the other forces hadn't been there for support?

Another missed opportunity - that support should've been evident in more than cutscenes, so making Priority: Earth a damned sight harder if you didn't pick up much in the way of Hammer forces, maybe involving a chance at losing your squadmates (and perhaps one or two survivors from that group if you'd picked up all of them).

And yes, the Reapers are exceptionally formidable.  They've been doing their thing for eons, and it's been successful for a reason. 

That's a whole other can of worms.

#107
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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I think they wanted to represent Shepard torn between Anderson and TIM with the Destroy/Control pillars, and Synthesis was supposed to be "Shepard forging a new path" that bypassed both of their viewpoints.

Except, it wasn't bypassing or bringing anything new. Saren already represented the synthesis viewpoint. Apparently Walters doesn't even play his own games. "Hey look! Synthesis! It's brand new! Best of all worlds!"

Modifié par StreetMagic, 09 octobre 2013 - 06:28 .


#108
dreamgazer

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You won't see a bit of disagreement from me about whether the war assets needed to be (better) visualized.

#109
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dreamgazer wrote...

You won't see a bit of disagreement from me about whether the war assets needed to be (better) visualized.


Better visualized, and better interacted with. :)

A Suicide Mission+

That's what I wanted (where assets were akin to your squad and ship upgrades from the last game).

Modifié par StreetMagic, 09 octobre 2013 - 06:32 .


#110
CronoDragoon

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iakus wrote...
It's symbolic.


So's my example. Where do we go from here? That ME is conflicted in what it wants its theme to be? That's probably true. But without the geth and EDI being destroyed, you'd have zero issue with this particular scene.

In the end, nothing matters.  It doesn't matter that these groups who normally wouldn't trust each other are fighting in common cause.  They're still going to burn.  They're just as trapped as Shepard is.


I find this to be false, at least going by the standard interpretation of "mattering." Uniting the galaxy docks the Crucible which allows you to defeat the Reapers. Those soldiers shown celebrating while the Reapers fall and burn don't agree with you.

Also, Shepard is trapped temporarily, so that's not really being trapped at all. But we've argued this before.

#111
Iakus

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dreamgazer wrote...

And yes, the Reapers are exceptionally formidable.  They've been doing their thing for eons, and it's been successful for a reason. 


Indeed.  In previous cycles, the Reapers would have done a successful sneak attack on the Citadel, decaptitated galactic government, and shut down the relay network, leaving everyone isolated from each other.  the four species could never have come together to fight as a united front against the Reapers at all.

But at least now they can all die together.  Because  THE REAPERS CANNOT BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY so we have to rely on the Crucible's blood ritual "sufficiently advanced technology"

#112
Kel Riever

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StreetMagic wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

You won't see a bit of disagreement from me about whether the war assets needed to be (better) visualized.


Better visualized, and better interacted with. :)


Just even the fleet arriving.

But of course, really, there should have been a lot more added than that.

Hope that CEO at EA was really happy about making the deadline (sure, I'll go with that assumption) so ME3 could be mega advertised and sold at the beginning of The Walking Dead season.  You know, that CEO who isn't at EA anymore?...

#113
Reorte

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iakus wrote...

Indeed.  In previous cycles, the Reapers would have done a successful sneak attack on the Citadel, decaptitated galactic government, and shut down the relay network, leaving everyone isolated from each other.  the four species could never have come together to fight as a united front against the Reapers at all.

But at least now they can all die together.  Because  THE REAPERS CANNOT BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY so we have to rely on the Crucible's blood ritual "sufficiently advanced technology"

Which is true enough - relying that heavily on immediate capture of the Citadel would've meant that the Reapers would probably have been wiped out long ago. The big problem is the means by which that non-conventional solution was contrived (and I mean that in every sense of the word). IMO it should probably have involved by being able to do something sneaky using knowledge gained from the remains of Sovereign and reasonable time to develop it, an opportunity that I could be convinced no previous cycle had.

#114
Xamufam

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mass effect 3 priority earth would have been based on choices
http://pastebin.com/9A1dwb3M
Designer Cutscene: Missile Strike part 1
Shepard enters the last commands to launch his missiles as the Reaper finishes charging its shot. As he does so, he shouts for the other missile units to fire.
Note: Close-up shots of the Reaper are avoided during this scene.

Designer Cutscene: Missile Strike part 2
The first torpedo fires, impacting on the Reaper, staggering it. It is followed immediately by salvo after salvo of other torpedoes launched by other Hammer units to the east and west.
Shepard's second torpedo fires, striking the Reaper in its vulnerable spot, destroying it.
Cheering can be heard over the radio. Anderson arrives with a unit of Marines.
Note: Close-up shots of the Reaper are okay during this scene.

Designer Cutscene: Reaper Battle Failure
The Reaper fires its beam, destroying the missile truck and causing a massive explosion.

Conversation:
The APC comes to a stop at the edge of the massive crater which contains the facility.
Shepard decides whether or not his team will accompany him in the final run to the device.
Harvesters start landing in the crater. Anderson reinforces that they can't stay and fight - the Harvester swarm is virtually endless. They just need to get Shepard to the beam at all costs. Anderson and his team will cover one side of Shepard's approach, the henchmen the other side.

Designer Cutscene:
Shepard comes to.
A handful of survivors from hammer, including Anderson and the henchmen, have gotten bogged down just a few dozen meters from the conduit and have dug in, but are dying quickly.
Suddenly, the Normandy streaks overhead, evading fire fromthe Reaper and blowing a hole in the Reaper enemies' lines.
Anderson shouts for Shepard to make a run for it, and orders the rest of Hammer to cover him.

Cutscene: Shepard leaps into the conduit beam.
}
OR:
{
Action Moment / Cutscene:
A harvester lands almost on top of Shepard, knocking him down. The Harvester attacks, and Shepard scrambles to avoid it.
Suddenly, gunfire starts hitting the Harvester, distracting it. The henchmen appear, firing at the harvester, trying to get its attention.
It moves to attack them - they shout for Shepard to go for the beam, and disappear, chased by the Harvester.
Shepard runs to the beam, ducking around more fire from landing Harvesters, and leaps into the beam.
}
OR:
{
Cutscene:
Shepard comes to. Anderson is dragging him forward. A jagged, bloody piece of metal is sticking out of his thigh. The conduit anchor retracts, stranding the henchmen. Shepard tries to walk, but his leg buckles. Anderson hands Shepard his pistol, and lifts Shepard's arm around his neck, supporting his leg. The two begin to shuffle towards the conduit beam.

Cutscene:
Shepard and Anderson approach the conduit's beam. Shepard gets in, but Anderson is grabbed by a husk. Shepard turns to help, but before he can do anything, the beam activates, whisking Shepard away to the Citadel.
On the other side, Shepard tears the metal from his leg and casts it aside, and then injects himself with Medigel.
}
OR:
{
CUTSCENE:
Shepard regains consciousness. He's bloody, and obviously badly injured.
The Reaper is overhead, blasting away at retreating elements of Hammer.
Shepard looks around: he's surrounded by burning vehicles and corpses, alone. He reaches for a syrette of medigel, but finds them broken or empty. Determined, he struggles to his feet, and starts limping towards the conduit.

Designer Cutscene: Shepard limps to the conduit, and takes one final look around for other survivors. Seeing none, he enters the beam and is transported to the citadel.
}
OR:
{
CUTSCENE/CINE DESIGN: (this one is wtf, since it doesn't even mention Anderson going into the Conduit beam with Shepard)
Shepard leaps into the Conduit at the end of the Earth sequence.
Shepard slowly wakes up. He is badly injured and alone. Suddenly his radio starts to go off.
Shepard and Anderson reach the end of the tunnel in to a larger central chamber. They realize this is essentially a rendering facility. Human goo pours from their tunnel, and dozens (hundreds?) like it, into a vast holding tank under the grated floor.
As they enter the control room they can see the controls for the Citadel Arms, but before they can reach them both Shepard and Anderson begin to feel the effects similiar to those Shepard felt at MIRANDA'S MISSION.
Before they can realize what's happening, Anderson and Shepard find themselves with their guns drawn and aimed at one another.

there are also sound files with jack & her students

Mass Effect 3 gets complicated with 1,000+ variables
http://www.destructo...es-180572.phtml

Modifié par Troxa, 09 octobre 2013 - 06:40 .


#115
Iakus

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CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
It's symbolic.


So's my example. Where do we go from here? That ME is conflicted in what it wants its theme to be? That's probably true. But without the geth and EDI being destroyed, you'd have zero issue with this particular scene.


If I had an ending I'd actually want to see, that particular scene may not have resonated so much with me, true.


I find this to be false, at least going by the standard interpretation of "mattering." Uniting the galaxy docks the Crucible which allows you to defeat the Reapers. Those soldiers shown celebrating while the Reapers fall and burn don't agree with you.


I find the price too high. And there is no way to lower it (short of MEHEM)  so no, I don't see it mattering.

#116
dreamgazer

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Ah, Pastebin. The ever-reliable source of anonymous, unaccountable information.

#117
dreamgazer

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iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

And yes, the Reapers are exceptionally formidable.  They've been doing their thing for eons, and it's been successful for a reason. 


Indeed.  In previous cycles, the Reapers would have done a successful sneak attack on the Citadel, decaptitated galactic government, and shut down the relay network, leaving everyone isolated from each other.  the four species could never have come together to fight as a united front against the Reapers at all.

But at least now they can all die together.  Because  THE REAPERS CANNOT BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY so we have to rely on the Crucible's blood ritual "sufficiently advanced technology"


Pretty much! Only the gathered races definitely didn't perish in my universe.

Blowback from the energy blast just so happened to be unavoidable. 

#118
Xamufam

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dreamgazer wrote...

Ah, Pastebin. The ever-reliable source of anonymous, unaccountable information.

Nov 7th, 2011 before me3 was out :P

#119
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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^ Not surprised by all those variables.. I already heard the Jack audio.. I knew there was a lot more planned to the Hammer forces, but not that much.

There's no reason to defend the absence of it. I understand people develop ways to cope with the suckage, but it's annoying when people act like it's all good and satisfying. It's trash. It was rushed.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 09 octobre 2013 - 06:45 .


#120
CronoDragoon

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I don't think it's fair to blame EA. ME3 was given an extension, though not as long as BW wanted, to work on stuff. At some point it comes down to BW's responsibility to properly plan within the time given.

#121
dreamgazer

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Troxa wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Ah, Pastebin. The ever-reliable source of anonymous, unaccountable information.

Nov 7th, 2011 before me3 was out :P


How do you know it wasn't modified in order to elevate expectations?

Can you ask the poster about the information?

#122
Iakus

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dreamgazer wrote...

Ah, Pastebin. The ever-reliable source of anonymous, unaccountable information.


That's stuff from the leaked script.  It's legit.

#123
dreamgazer

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iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Ah, Pastebin. The ever-reliable source of anonymous, unaccountable information.


That's stuff from the leaked script.  It's legit.


Yeah, I tend to check out whenever I see a post from Pastebin, given the anonymity and the ability to bullshit details for the effect of provoking thirsty fans. 

#124
Steelcan

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The issue with the ending was NOT a lack of closure, if the ending had been reworked to be lore friendly and narratively coherent, closure issues would still be voiced, but the furor that we got would no have happened.

That is why the ending sucks, its a narrative mess. Half-assed "reveals", exposition dump (by who is by all rights the antagonist of the series), and a complete lack of importance given to past choices that should have played heavily in the ending to the whole series.

This jarring nature is what I think caused so many people to get angry, they knew that the ending was poorly executed on every level and got angry (rightly so). Closure for the characters is really low on the list of things that i really care about. And really, there is no closure for characters like Garrus or Liara, but I don't see people continuously complaining about it.

I believe that if the ending had delivered a lore consistent and narratively consistent ending, with input from prior choices in the series, the ending would have been much better received. Closure really is not that important.

#125
2Pac

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Steelcan wrote...

The issue with the ending was NOT a lack of closure, if the ending had been reworked to be lore friendly and narratively coherent, closure issues would still be voiced, but the furor that we got would no have happened.

That is why the ending sucks, its a narrative mess. Half-assed "reveals", exposition dump (by who is by all rights the antagonist of the series), and a complete lack of importance given to past choices that should have played heavily in the ending to the whole series.

This jarring nature is what I think caused so many people to get angry, they knew that the ending was poorly executed on every level and got angry (rightly so). Closure for the characters is really low on the list of things that i really care about. And really, there is no closure for characters like Garrus or Liara, but I don't see people continuously complaining about it.

I believe that if the ending had delivered a lore consistent and narratively consistent ending, with input from prior choices in the series, the ending would have been much better received. Closure really is not that important.


The Lack of Closure was not the only thing dissapointing. Every ending was pretty much the same to me just with different colors.  Ending shepards story in the most insulting way ever is what made me mad.