518 réponses à ce sujet

[NeonFlux117]

meh...... Citadel DLC was plenty of closure for me.

Endings suck and they're always gonna suck. Move on.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Chashan wrote...

I primarily put that out there to disprove Alan's assertion that any alternative preferred by fans would be 'happier' than what BW put forth.

Alan knows very well what kind of Destroy ending I would have preferred.  Most would consider it more terrible than what we already got.

Except you plug MEHEM every chance you get, which is straight-up happier. 

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Chashan wrote...

I primarily put that out there to disprove Alan's assertion that any alternative preferred by fans would be 'happier' than what BW put forth.

Alan knows very well what kind of Destroy ending I would have preferred.  Most would consider it more terrible than what we already got.

Except you plug MEHEM every chance you get, which is straight-up happier. 

Yes.  Because MEHEM allows me to imagine my own ending in a way none of the "official endings" can hope for (I mentally put more emphasis on Hackett's "severely damaged" comment).

Plus I'd rather err on teh side of too sweet than too bitter.  I think many others would too.

[AndyAK79]

iakus wrote...


That's pretty much what I feel we got with the endings anyway.  Perhaps not in a literal sense, but the feeling of hopelessness and futility after everything that occurred in those three games sure gave me a similar feeling.

You can't save Shepard 

You can save Shepard

You must inflict something horrible on the galaxy in order to "save" it.

Whilst you clearly think that the after-effects of control and synthesis are 'horrible' you offer no compelling reason why this is the case. Control in particular has few consequences other than sacrificing Shepard. 

Even in the "best" endings, I feel my Shepard becomes worse than Saren ever was.  If that's not having no choice in killing Shepard and destroying the galaxy, I don't know what is.

THE GALAXY ISN'T DESTROYED!!! The galaxy survives all three endings. Refuse destroys galactic civilisation (not the actual galaxy) but that's as close as you get.

Maybe the reason you hate the endings is because your imagining stuff that doesn't actually happen.

Modifié par AndyAK79, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:01 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Plus I'd rather err on teh side of too sweet than too bitter.  I think many others would too.

So we don't actually disagree on anything?

[AndyAK79]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Chashan wrote...

I primarily put that out there to disprove Alan's assertion that any alternative preferred by fans would be 'happier' than what BW put forth.

Alan knows very well what kind of Destroy ending I would have preferred.  Most would consider it more terrible than what we already got.

Except you plug MEHEM every chance you get, which is straight-up happier. 

Yes.  Because MEHEM allows me to imagine my own ending in a way none of the "official endings" can hope for (I mentally put more emphasis on Hackett's "severely damaged" comment).

Plus I'd rather err on teh side of too sweet than too bitter.  I think many others would too.

MEHEM is a travesty designed by people who can't handle being asked to make grown up or difficult choices, so throw the rattle out of the pram and rewrite the end to suit them.

It's a mod, it isn't canon and (and I am aware am repeating myself) if a similar ending was included nobody would choose anything else and it would make a mockery of a choice-based game. It doesn't let you imagine your own happy ending it lets someone else do it for you. It's also dramatically laughable.

The writers of the game determine how the story ends. The sense that people are somehow have a right to the ending they want is ridiculous. Quite apart from the fact that everyones ideal ending would be different, your rights are to play the game or don't, buy the game or don't.

MEHEM is an insult to everyone who put time and effort into ME3 - Bioware and players alike.

Modifié par AndyAK79, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:19 .

[CronoDragoon]

Ouch Andy. I mean I don't use MEHEM and wouldn't if it were an option on console but I don't think fan fiction hurts anybody. It's a perfectly healthy way to object to issues one has with a fiction work, the same way that issues one has with a fictional work can inspire you to create new fiction.

[AndyAK79]

StreetMagic wrote...

I said earlier that I like simply playing a "problem solver", and not necessarily a hero. That's probably my main gripe with the endings. Whatever way you try to solve the problem, they all create new problems. Which isn't exactly bad to me, but since I don't know how any of them are ever going to be addressed, it just hangs in the air.

I'm happy enough with Destroy though. I'd just like to solve the new problems it introduces (political problems, possibility of new synthetics the Catalyst warned about, etc).

Control pisses me off.. I'd have to solve that problem the same way I solved the last one. Which was a pain in the ass. It took uniting the whole galaxy to even get near the last overlord AI. I can only hope it kills itself, similar to Leto Atreides II in the Dune stories. Save us from all the hassle of doing it ourselves.

Thats the point of having a choice. I'll be honest and say I struggle with synthesis and control, but don't like the idea of destroying EDI and the Geth. It's a tough choice, but that's what makes it a good one.

Creating a tough choice like this means, inevitably, problems. Take away the rock and the hard place and you have no drama.

Best advice; solve the problem of galactic extinction. It's a biggest enough one to be geting on with.

[Chashan]

 

AndyAK79 wrote...

THE GALAXY ISN'T DESTROYED!!! The galaxy survives all three endings. Refuse destroys galactic civilisation (not the actual galaxy) but that's as close as you get.

Maybe the reason you hate the endings is because your imagining stuff that doesn't actually happen.

False. Low-EMS Red does that, which is a fully acceptable consequence of the Crucible being used, it being likened to setting off the actual atomic bomb prior to that.

Which, also, did not discern between targets based on arbitrary criteria. Things around it simply were gone.

StreetMagic wrote...

Control pisses me off.. I'd have to solve that problem the same way I solved the last one. Which was a pain in the ass. It took uniting the whole galaxy to even get near the last overlord AI. I can only hope it kills itself, similar to Leto Atreides II in the Dune stories. Save us from all the hassle of doing it ourselves.

Leto Atreides was at least someone of flesh and blood, and didn't have gargantuan killbots at his disposal. Which doesn't make Control one bit better.

AndyAK79 wrote...

MEHEM is a travesty designed by people who can't handle being asked to make grown up or difficult choices, so throw the rattle out of the pram and rewrite the end to suit them. [...]

You can brush how Control and Synthesis works out in the brightest colours imaginable as well, with hardly any graspable consequences given despite the ramifications raised by both. So do simmer down.

[AndyAK79]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ouch Andy. I mean I don't use MEHEM and wouldn't if it were an option on console but I don't think fan fiction hurts anybody. It's a perfectly healthy way to object to issues one has with a fiction work, the same way that issues one has with a fictional work can inspire you to create new fiction.

I'd argue that MEHEM doesn't qualify as fan fiction either.

Fan fiction expands a fictional story; it doesn't re-write it.

[AndyAK79]

Chashan wrote...

You can brush how Control and Synthesis works out in the brightest colours imaginable as well, with hardly any graspable consequences given despite the ramifications raised by both. So do simmer down.

Apart from the bit about simmering down, I have no idea what this means.

[CronoDragoon]

Chashan wrote...
Leto Atreides was at least someone of flesh and blood, and didn't have gargantuan killbots at his disposal. Which doesn't make Control one bit better.

Prescience made Leto more powerful than Shepalyst will ever be, though.

[CronoDragoon]

AndyAK79 wrote...

Fan fiction expands a fictional story; it doesn't re-write it.

I've read plenty of fan fiction that does both, though the latter is usually disclaimed as AU.

[Iakus]

AndyAK79 wrote...

You can save Shepard

At the expense of all synthetic life?  I don't think my SHepard would want to live after doing that.

Whilst you clearly think that the after-effects of control and synthesis are 'horrible' you offer no compelling reason why this is the case. Control in particular has few consequences other than sacrificing Shepard. 

Enslaving the galaxy or forcible violation of every living being's genetic code isn't compelling as horrible consequences?

THE GALAXY ISN'T DESTROYED!!! The galaxy survives all three endings. Refuse destroys galactic civilisation (not the actual galaxy) but that's as close as you get.

Yes, galactic civilization is rebuild with a horrible atrocity as the foundation.  SHepard gets to pick teh atrocity.  Yay, I guess.

It's wrecked for me

Maybe the reason you hate the endings is because your imagining stuff that doesn't actually happen.

I suspect the reason you like the endings is because you're imagining stuff that isn't really there either.

Whre does that leave us?

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Plus I'd rather err on teh side of too sweet than too bitter.  I think many others would too.

So we don't actually disagree on anything?

Well, your preferences clearly skew darker than mine.  But if you mean that the state of the relays should have been the focus of the "sacrifice" in Destroy rather than the death of all synthetic life, then yes we are in agreement

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
At the expense of all synthetic life?  I don't think my SHepard would want to live after doing that.

Goalpost-moving aside, we've established Shepard can be alive.

Enslaving the galaxy or forcible violation of every living being's genetic code isn't compelling as horrible consequences?

Control isn't slavery unless you want it to be. Synthesis is indeed forced genetic change, though.

Yes, galactic civilization is rebuild with a horrible atrocity as the foundation.  SHepard gets to pick teh atrocity.  Yay, I guess.

So we've established the universe isn't destroyed. Myself I think they'll use some type of metal to rebuild.

[Iakus]

AndyAK79 wrote...

MEHEM is an insult to everyone who put time and effort into ME3 - Bioware and players alike.

Funny, I feel the same way about the endings we got.

Silly me, I thought games were supposed to be entertaining.  What was I thinking?

[Chashan]

AndyAK79 wrote...

Chashan wrote...

You can brush how Control and Synthesis works out in the brightest colours imaginable as well, with hardly any graspable consequences given despite the ramifications raised by both. So do simmer down.

Apart from the bit about simmering down, I have no idea what this means.

That the stock-finale is already vague enough that you can get away with a plethora of assumptions on where things go as is.

You yourself said it: 

Whilst Shepards physical body dies in control it is clear from the voice over that he continues to exist in a different form. And the Reapers don't take over the galaxy at all.

which is your take on that. Others fully embrace Shepard 3.0's galaxy-spanning benevolent protectorate and go along with that, still others prefer to think that, eventually, Shepard 3.0 withdraws from galactic affairs after the heavy lifting of reconstruction is done.

Nothing in the base-game explicitly renounces these assumptions of 'what's next'. Which are quite rosy, given what just Blue boils down to is the creation of a god-construct with the Reaper's armada at its beck and call, the galaxy at its mercy whether you like it or not.

As I initially said about the vanilla-finale in general, it still does qualify as 'happy' if you so choose. So lambasting others for questioning this set-up in the first place and throwing a hissy-fit about them being not 'mature enough' to accept this doesn't exactly make your stance any more convincing.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Goalpost-moving aside, we've established Shepard can be alive.

I consider "saving" a character to be mor ethanmere survival.

Control isn't slavery unless you want it to be. Synthesis is indeed forced genetic change, though.

Shepalyst, even Paragon Shepalyst makes it clear they will be running the show for the galaxy, and will mete out it's own sense of justice.  The galaxy's future is no longer it's own.  It's a cage, if a gilded one for Paragon Shep.

So we've established the universe isn't destroyed. Myself I think they'll use some type of metal to rebuild.

Do you seriously think I've been referring to physical destruction, or are you simply being obtuse for humor's sake?  A world can be destroyed by means other than physical

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Silly me, I thought games were supposed to be entertaining.  What was I thinking?

While I agree that Mass Effect should have stayed its lane, I don't agree with extrapolating this to all games. It's extremely limiting.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Shepalyst, even Paragon Shepalyst makes it clear they will be running the show for the galaxy, and will mete out it's own sense of justice.  The galaxy's future is no longer it's own.  It's a cage, if a gilded one for Paragon Shep.

Sounds like government to me.

Do you seriously think I've been referring to physical destruction, or are you simply being obtuse for humor's sake?  A world can be destroyed by means other than physical

I can only take your words as what they are. If you meant that the soul of your character can't be saved then say so. Destroying the universe metaphorically and destroying it physically are also different enough to warrant distinction, especially considering the hullaballoo with the OEs and galactic wastelands.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:56 .

[zed888]

AndyAK79 wrote...
Kudos for being the only person in the world who seems to be arguing that the endings weren't miserable enough.

Nope— #2 reporting for duty!   I thought that damaging the relays/Citadel was a cop-out, and that destroying the Reaper infrastructure along with the Reapers would have been reasonable.   In a way that didn't wipe out every system with a relay, that is.  And for my taste the game as a whole could have been darker.   A lot of the most disturbing things about the harvest were only talked about— Edi talking about concentration camps, Javik's stories, etc.   And Shepard's war-weariness was unconvincing.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Sounds like government to me.

Governments by immortal mind-controlling AIs with armies of space zombies which have already misinterpreted their function and virtually eliminated their creator race once before?

What could possibly go wrong?

Do you seriously think I've been referring to physical destruction, or are you simply being obtuse for humor's sake?  A world can be destroyed by means other than physical

Since you so often switch arguments on the fly I can only take your words as what they are. If you meant that the soul of your character can't be saved then say so.

I have actually said so on other occassions.  But I will reiterate it here.  Shepard must sacrifice his/her life, soul, or both.  I find this unacceptable.