247 réponses à ce sujet

[Deverz]

I dunno, I like the style they're going for. And it's still a ways off so...

But yeah, no complaints from me.

[BraveVesperia]

I've no problem with Morrigan's new face, especially her eyes. Her eyes in DAO were very small and not especially realistic looking. Rather like Tallis's eyes (unrealistic) in that aspect. I reckon she ought to move that hair out of her face though, instead of channeling Lulu.

Changing face shapes isn't new anyway, Alistair and Zevran were barely recognisable in DA2, and Alistair had less excuse, there was no real reason for his face shape to change so much.

[David Gaider]

BraveVesperia wrote...
Changing face shapes isn't new anyway, Alistair and Zevran were barely recognisable in DA2, and Alistair had less excuse, there was no real reason for his face shape to change so much.

The main reason Alistair and Zevran looked as they did was because their faces were made using the regular chargen system-- which was not really up to the task of emulating faces which were originally custom-made (try making Alistair's face with the DAO chargen and you'll see what I mean).

I don't think either of them was as horrifying as some people seem to (I assume it's the typical exaggeration with which every opinion is expressed hereabouts), but they did look a bit different and it would have been nice to have the time to custom tweak them like Morrigan and Cassandra and such have been. For those who will react to any perceived difference, no matter the cause, that will never go away no matter how much tweaking is done-- the new engine and fidelity guarantees any returning character will not look the same. They cannot, in fact, look the same.

[TheInquisitor]

David Gaider wrote...

BraveVesperia wrote...
Changing face shapes isn't new anyway, Alistair and Zevran were barely recognisable in DA2, and Alistair had less excuse, there was no real reason for his face shape to change so much.

The main reason Alistair and Zevran looked as they did was because their faces were made using the regular chargen system-- which was not really up to the task of emulating faces which were originally custom-made (try making Alistair's face with the DAO chargen and you'll see what I mean).

I don't think either of them was as horrifying as some people seem to (I assume it's the typical exaggeration with which every opinion is expressed hereabouts), but they did look a bit different and it would have been nice to have the time to custom tweak them like Morrigan and Cassandra and such have been. For those who will react to any perceived difference, no matter the cause, that will never go away no matter how much tweaking is done-- the new engine and fidelity guarantees any returning character will not look the same. They cannot, in fact, look the same.

So for Dragon Age Inquisition are you able to make returning characters faces closer to the original than you could previously do when re-creating faces for the origins characters in DA2?

Also - if Alistair or Zevran were to appear would their face be more like theirs in DA:Os or DA2s? (I know they would never be the same, but which version would you try to base the new one off?)

Thanks.

Modifié par TristanHawke, 12 octobre 2013 - 12:43 .

[David Gaider]

TristanHawke wrote...
So for Dragon Age Inquisition are you able to make returning characters faces closer to the original than you could previously do when re-creating faces for the origins characters in DA2?

No. As I just said above, they will never look as they did-- they cannot. It's like a comic book with a new artist-- the idea will be to make them recognizeable in the new style.

Whether they'll be pleasing is a different question. For some, the fact they're at all different will mean they'll never be pleasing.

[RedIntifada]

The characters did also age 10 years.

[TheInquisitor]

David Gaider wrote...

TristanHawke wrote...
So for Dragon Age Inquisition are you able to make returning characters faces closer to the original than you could previously do when re-creating faces for the origins characters in DA2?

No. As I just said above, they will never look as they did-- they cannot. It's like a comic book with a new artist-- the idea will be to make them recognizeable in the new style.

Whether they'll be pleasing is a different question. For some, the fact they're at all different will mean they'll never be pleasing.

Ok. I just thought with frostbite it would make it a tad easier than that with DA2.

Thanks for the reply

[t0mm06]

Sanunes wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Because they went from Eclipse engine to Frostbite engine and directly translating the models is not only impossible but emulating them would make them fall into the Uncanny valley.

Oh wait you looking for Lore reason
um she got older
drank lots of milk for strong bones
stole the Warden's skin

sorry to be picky but i h to study the uncanny valley for years, and its generally ageed apon that games don' suffer from it (or at least suffer from it so little th it ont matter). (also it wouldnt be impossible to import, as all models would start in a 3d software so they could have just used that model (although thta would be silly as it probably wouldnt have the matching  topology that they use for DA:I)

I would like to see your proof, for this is the first time I have ever heard of a video games not suffering from Uncanny Valley.  I have heard developers say its a concern if they push the graphics too far, but hardware limitations have also prevented games from going too far.  Another explanation I have also heard that things we look at now could have been considered part of the Uncanny Valley in the past, but because we have slowly approached this level of graphics we have adapted and delayed reaching the Uncanny Valley.

Thinking about it, I could see certain games not having a problem with looking "too realistic" such as racing games or other games where you don't have to interact with "virtual people", but a BioWare game when you can have two characters talking on screen to me would definitely have a problem if it reached a part of a person's brain where it didn't look right.

Edit: Spelling mistake.

Well there is no proof, although that doesn't disprove my point anymore then yours as the uncanny valley doesnt have any proof to start with, it exists only as a hypothesis, and a hypothesis which started life talking about robots and puppets, And has not been converted adequitly for CGI. 
The argument that it doesnt effect games (or at least as much) is that because of the control the player has over the character, that immersion helps overcome alot of the 'eeriness' of the not quite realistic cgi. 
This is also why games can get away with having animation which isnt as seemless or realistic (actually the quality of animation is generally now considered a big part of the uncanny vally. For example in a paper written about the uncanny valley, a lot of the evidence that some people didnt like films such as Polar Express, most people seemed to dislike how the eyes didnt seem right (an often problem animatiors can have is getting the eyes to move right) 

http://dl.acm.org/ci....cfm?id=2087860  
I think this is the paper where he talks about the polar express and beowulf.

And like you said peoples perceptions of what is 'too' realistic is very different now, and is changing very rapidily as the levels of realism being reached are being forever pushed closer and closer to 'real'. 

Also as a pedantic point (i'm sorry but it will bother me otherwise)  the uncanny valley doesnt actually say too realistic is where the valley is. Too realstic is good, thats the stage where its comming out of the valley, its the are before that which is the 'valley'.  So even if the valley is a real thing the chances are that we've already passed it and are out the other side. 

Also to end on a slightly interesting point, as i am sure i have bored anyone who has got to this part of my, what can no longer be called a post, but rather an essay.  This is an advertisment (i'm asuming just in england as its for a bristish chocolate company) which stars the sadly deceased Audrey Hepburn, using CGI



(onl the face is CGI, its made by a company called framestore, if you are interested, which i would assume you would be if you got this far into, whatever this thing that i have writte at 2:30 is now called.)

Edit.. To fix any of the glaring gramatical/spelling mistakes i made, which i could not possibly leave as they made me feel physically sick

Modifié par t0mm06, 12 octobre 2013 - 01:25 .

[Medhia Nox]

Her inner-ugly has decided to manifest - not really a surprise, I see it in the real world all the time.

[H. Birdman]

With all due respect, if you don't *ahem* know the difference between an attractive 35 year old woman and and an attractive 20 year old woman, you really aren't entitled to an opinion on this. It's not about perfect symmetry or flawless skin. It's something behind the eyes that's way, way hotter. And the new Morrigan has that.

Great job by the designers on not pandering to the Soul Calibur school of feminine beauty.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Her inner-ugly has decided to manifest - not really a surprise, I see it in the real world all the time.

/end thread.


Also Gaider has confirmed that the answer to the thread title is "because they wanted to".

and as I said earlier, where's Sten's thread? The qunari jump between from DA2 onwards is like a whole different species.

t0mm06 wrote...

Sanunes wrote...

t0mm06 wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Because
they went from Eclipse engine to Frostbite engine and directly
translating the models is not only impossible but emulating them would
make them fall into the Uncanny valley.

Oh wait you looking for Lore reason
um she got older
drank lots of milk for strong bones
stole the Warden's skin

sorry
to be picky but i h to study the uncanny valley for years, and its
generally ageed apon that games don' suffer from it (or at least suffer
from it so little th it ont matter). (also it wouldnt be impossible to
import, as all models would start in a 3d software so they could have
just used that model (although thta would be silly as it probably
wouldnt have the matching  topology that they use for DA:I)

I
would like to see your proof, for this is the first time I have ever
heard of a video games not suffering from Uncanny Valley.  I have heard
developers say its a concern if they push the graphics too far, but
hardware limitations have also prevented games from going too far.
 Another explanation I have also heard that things we look at now could
have been considered part of the Uncanny Valley in the past, but because
we have slowly approached this level of graphics we have adapted and
delayed reaching the Uncanny Valley.

Thinking about it, I could
see certain games not having a problem with looking "too realistic" such
as racing games or other games where you don't have to interact with
"virtual people", but a BioWare game when you can have two characters
talking on screen to me would definitely have a problem if it reached a
part of a person's brain where it didn't look right.

Edit: Spelling mistake.

Well
there is no proof, although that doesn't disprove my point anymore then
yours as the uncanny valley doesnt have any proof to start with, it
exists only as a hypothesis, and a hypothesis which started life talking
about robots and puppets, And has not been converted adequitly for
CGI. 
The argument that it doesnt effect games (or at least as much)
is that because of the control the player has over the character, that
immersion helps overcome alot of the 'eeriness' of the not quite
realistic cgi. 
This is also why games can get away with having
animation which isnt as seemless or realistic (actually the quality of
animation is generally now considered a big part of the uncanny vally.
For example in a paper written about the uncanny valley, a lot of the
evidence that some people didnt like films such as Polar Express, most
people seemed to dislike how the eyes didnt seem right (an often problem
animatiors can have is getting the eyes to move right) 

http://dl.acm.org/ci....cfm?id=2087860  
I think this is the paper where he talks about the polar express and beowulf.

And
like you said peoples perceptions of what is 'too' realistic is very
different now, and is changing very rapidily as the levels of realism
being reached are being forever pushed closer and closer to 'real'. 

Also
as a pedantic point (i'm sorry but it will bother me otherwise)  the
uncanny valley doesnt actually say too realistic is where the valley is.
Too realstic is good, thats the stage where its comming out of the
valley, its the are before that which is the 'valley'.  So even if the
valley is a real thing the chances are that we've already passed it and
are out the other side. 

Also to end on a slightly interesting
point, as i am sure i have bored anyone who has got to this part of my,
what can no longer be called a post, but rather an essay.  This is an
advertisment (i'm asuming just in england as its for a bristish
chocolate company) which stars the sadly deceased Audrey Hepburn, using
CGI



(onl
the face is CGI, its made by a company called framestore, if you are
interested, which i would assume you would be if you got this far into,
whatever this thing that i have writte at 2:30 is now called.)

Edit..
To fix any of the glaring gramatical/spelling mistakes i made, which i
could not possibly leave as they made me feel physically sick

Yeah everytime I've seen someone mention uncanny valley in games it's a weak excuse for a badly made face. L.A. Noire has some of the most realistic faces in video games and there's not a valley in sight.

[JWvonGoethe]

She looks different, but somehow exactly the same. I think they caught the essence of her face. That said, it does look like she has no teeth when she is speaking, but Bioware have a history of making teeth look a bit weird (there are some terrifying DA2 screenshots out there that prove this!)

Also, Varric looks great, but I didn't actually recognise him when I first watched the trailer. I'd say his facial structure has changed more than Morrigan's has, but it could have just been the camera angle/lighting which created this effect. Or more likely the lack of chest hair.

@fdgvdddvdfdfdbfd - The actor who plays the main character in LA Noire is in Mad Men. I watched the show after I played the game. Weirdly, I got really strong feelings of uncanny valley whenever the real life version popped up on the show.

[Mecha Elf]

She looked fine to me. I liked the tweaks they did with her. She looks wiser/more experienced or she has seen more things. Aka she looks older. And At least it isn't as bad as poor zevran oh dear lord....

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot more work would need to be done. As for "how well she'd hold up," my expectation is that it'd be somewhat akin to putting a PSX model into a PS2 game. The woefulness of Eclipse's lighting would probably make her look quite a bit different as well, given that Frostbite's is much, much improved.

I don't doubt if you simply tried to dump the Origins assets into Frostbite they'd look like trash.

What I hope to see more of with any returning characters with established looks is that in them being recreated, the general features of a character's face were adhered to- like the general size/shape of Morrigan's eyes or the general proportions of somebody's face, the fact that Morrigan had a larger than normal lower lip or Varric had a distinct jawline or Alistair had a distinctly shaped nose. Even if you're not directly importing data from Origins or DA2, I'd think it would be possible to recreate an existing character with those landmark facial features and the general size/symmetry/ proportions of their established face intact.


Or of course, DAI could just release with mod tools so that player's can make their own face morphs for NPCs and companions and then this whole discussion is irrelevent!

[Lluthren]

I like Morrigan's face, it reminds me of her mother.

[bEVEsthda]

Age? Mole? Change of engine?

Excuse me, but a change of engine doesn't add a mole.
Excuse me, but why would a change of engine have to change her eyebrow? It might of course, depending upon what the creation process of the face supports I guess. Why not add another eyebrow style?

Aged? Excuse me, but her cranium has changed. The distances and shapes of mouth and nose are sort of OK.
Her infraorbital and zygomatic bone are not OK.
If those are the result of a new engine, I guess everybody will walk around with bashed in zygomatic bone then?
Fine, carry on.

[LOLandStuff]

Yeah because no one's ever had their moles drawn before or eyebrows. Heck, they even used rat skin as eyebrows. You'd be surprised what some people were willing to do just to fit in and look "beautiful".
Check out Macaroni Fashion, they actually existed.

[bEVEsthda]

Yeah because no one's ever worn a clownmask either...
- Duh!

[ianvillan]

David Gaider wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
We'd likely need to import her model from raw files (the Eclipse files used for both DAO and DA2 are almost certainly incompatible with Frostbite). Though I'm a bit curious how she'd stand up if placed side by side the character models we've made for DAI.

She wouldn't, believe me.

The models need to be translated into both the new graphics engine as well as the new style that engine requires. Even attempting to exactly emulate everything about the old face model would still make it look incredibly different than before, and would look odd next to the other faces in the game.

This reminds me of when Morrigan was first revealed. There were posts-- many long, ranty posts-- about how odd she looked, and how ugly. Her bottom lip was unnaturally large. Her shoulders were too wide, and her features awkward. Her appearance was picked apart at length, generally based upon a few screenshots (some unfortunately angled). This seems like the same thing, of a slightly different justification... though I don't think it's really indicative of anything other than a predisposition of fans to overly dissect things.

She looks like Morrigan to me. My understanding is she's still being tweaked, and that will likely go on right until release. That won't stop folks from putting up many, many screenshots and opining ad nauseum on any perceived difference.

It was even worse with Isabella when she was revealed, Merrill got it as well (mainly because of the elf redesign)fans get attached to a companion and can only see them looking the same way as they did before.

[Usergnome]

The tweaks to Morrigan and Cassandra are fine, they look better in the new engine and they still are recognizable.

The tweaks to Zevran (and to a lesser extent Alistair... But especially Zev) are horrible and if it wasn't for the voice and hair, I would not have known it was Zevran. I understand there was the elf-redesign... but they took it too far and made him ugly.

Please Bioware, I understand they won't look the same but make them as close as possible. You did good with Morrigan/Cass, just don't make the same mistakes DA2 did

[t0mm06]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Age? Mole? Change of engine?

Excuse me, but a change of engine doesn't add a mole.
Excuse me, but why would a change of engine have to change her eyebrow? It might of course, depending upon what the creation process of the face supports I guess. Why not add another eyebrow style?

Aged? Excuse me, but her cranium has changed. The distances and shapes of mouth and nose are sort of OK.
Her infraorbital and zygomatic bone are not OK.
If those are the result of a new engine, I guess everybody will walk around with bashed in zygomatic bone then?
Fine, carry on.

-No but you can grow/ get moles throughout your life. or draw them on to fit into certain societies (like the french used too)
-And no but tweezers most certainly can change your eyebrows.
-and how exactly have you seen enough of her cranium to see that it has changed under all that hair?... that rhetorical

also saying excuse me before everything you say does not make up for the clearly aggressive and ****ty tone you are portraying, nor does it make up for it.

thats like me saying no offence but that comment made you sound like a child who is having a tantrum.

[duckley]

David Gaider wrote...

BraveVesperia wrote...
Changing face shapes isn't new anyway, Alistair and Zevran were barely recognisable in DA2, and Alistair had less excuse, there was no real reason for his face shape to change so much.

The main reason Alistair and Zevran looked as they did was because their faces were made using the regular chargen system-- which was not really up to the task of emulating faces which were originally custom-made (try making Alistair's face with the DAO chargen and you'll see what I mean).

I don't think either of them was as horrifying as some people seem to (I assume it's the typical exaggeration with which every opinion is expressed hereabouts), but they did look a bit different and it would have been nice to have the time to custom tweak them like Morrigan and Cassandra and such have been. For those who will react to any perceived difference, no matter the cause, that will never go away no matter how much tweaking is done-- the new engine and fidelity guarantees any returning character will not look the same. They cannot, in fact, look the same.

David
Thanks for the explanation, however, I am curious as to why Alistair and Zevran's faces were made using the "regular chargen system" and not the same system used for Nathaniel, Leliana, Bodhan, Cullen, etc. I found those characters looked improved.I am not a conspiracy theorist - just genuinely curious!

As an aside, I consider myself to be pretty reasonable and generally low key. I am a fairly typical Canadian (Albertan, in fact) and as such tend not to be overly effusive in my language. .But I got to tell you Zevran and Alistair's look in DA2 truly threw me for a loop especially Alistair!  After all, Alistair is my CG LI !

As for DAI - I am just looking forward to playing the game...

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Brockololly wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot more work would need to be done. As for "how well she'd hold up," my expectation is that it'd be somewhat akin to putting a PSX model into a PS2 game. The woefulness of Eclipse's lighting would probably make her look quite a bit different as well, given that Frostbite's is much, much improved.

I don't doubt if you simply tried to dump the Origins assets into Frostbite they'd look like trash.

What I hope to see more of with any returning characters with established looks is that in them being recreated, the general features of a character's face were adhered to- like the general size/shape of Morrigan's eyes or the general proportions of somebody's face, the fact that Morrigan had a larger than normal lower lip or Varric had a distinct jawline or Alistair had a distinctly shaped nose. Even if you're not directly importing data from Origins or DA2, I'd think it would be possible to recreate an existing character with those landmark facial features and the general size/symmetry/ proportions of their established face intact.


Or of course, DAI could just release with mod tools so that player's can make their own face morphs for NPCs and companions and then this whole discussion is irrelevent!

It's just like fanart really, everyone draws them differently then throws in a hairstyle or outfit or something iconic to make it "them".

[Dutchess]

David Gaider wrote...

I don't think either of them was as horrifying as some people seem to (I assume it's the typical exaggeration with which every opinion is expressed hereabouts), but they did look a bit different and it would have been nice to have the time to custom tweak them like Morrigan and Cassandra and such have been. 

If not for the tattoo on his cheek and his voice, I would genuinely not have known that was Zevran. Not only his entire face has changed, but his hair, eyebrow, and skin color as well. He looks bleached. I'm not sure if that is an effect of the in-game chargen, but it seems unlikely.

Modifié par renjility, 14 octobre 2013 - 08:49 .