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[Han Shot First]

The Chantry.

The Qun is more dogmatic, more aggressive, and less tolerant.

If the Qunari ever launch another war of conquest in Thedas, I hope they get annihilated in an Exalted March and end up like the Elves.

[BigEvil]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Exalted Marches aren't that common. And they aren't called unless there is a threat to the Chantry as a whole.

You're missing the point. It's not about how common they are or if they would be called, it's that they can use them as a threat. The freedom to convert to the Chantry or not, isn't actually free when it's done under that threat. The Qunari are at least up-front about them converting forcefully.

[badboy64]

I would go with the Qun.

[dragonflight288]

I'm a hedge wizard or a dwarf. I'll follow my paragon.

[Laughing_Man]

lol...
The real question is: Which is worse...

[Silfren]

These being my only choices, i say that the Chantry is the better option, but I have to qualify this as saying that between these two, the Chantry merely is the lesser of two evils...being the better option doesn't make it a good option.

I would like to see a Qun society directly.  I suspect that the true picture of it is not quite so awesome as its proponents that we've met in game would have us believe.  But I would also like to see how Qun society functions in Rivain, where supposedly the culture has shaped it differently.  

In the same vein, I'd like to see a form of Andrastianism that is markedly different from the orthodox version promoted by the Orlesian Chantry.  I suspect that Rivain is the place to look for this, as well.  With Haven, we saw, for wont of better terms, the contrast between catholic and gnostic.  Now I'd like to see a comtrast between catholic and protestant.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Han Shot First: If they end up like the elves - we'll have to suffer endless posts about Qunari liberation due to the injustices of evil men who put them in chains.  And how Qunari should do all sorts of base degenerate things because someone did a bad thing to them.

The elves weren't innocent either when those terrible Tevinter magisters sacked them - mark my words (if the truth about the history of the elves is ever made known).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:17 .

[dragonflight288]

TheRedVipress wrote...

lol...
The real question is: Which is worse...

I can't say for sure. I can't say the Chantry doesn't force its converts when I look at its history. Drakon allied with one of many Andrastian cults, and they exalted marched all the other city-states to build up Orlais and the predomoinant religion then became the Chantry.

Which meant they removed all the other Andrastian cults that disagreed with them, and forced their religion on others. And the local Chantry of Rivain broke the Llmarryn Accord after the Qunari born in the country broke their part of the treaty by refusing to leave their homes, so the Chantry there slaughtered them all.

The elves on Sundermount in Act 3 of DA2 talk to each other about how the templars are making not-so-subtle threats that say "convert or die." So the Chantry is no better than the Qun in that regard.

On the other hand, the Qun doesn't allow anyone to go beyond their assigned role, and if you rebel against it, you are labeled Tal-Vashoth and killed as a result, no matter what your role may have been. The Chantry does not. But the Chantry doesn't erase the personalities of everyone who disagrees with them either.

I think, overall, they are both equal in how crappy they are.

[Han Shot First]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Han Shot First: If they end up like the elves - we'll have to suffer endless posts about Qunari liberation due to the injustices of evil men who put them in chains.  And how Qunari should do all sorts of base degenerate things because someone did a bad thing to them.

The elves weren't innocent either when those terrible Tevinter magisters sacked them - mark my words (if the truth about the history of the elves is ever made known).

Agreed.

The Elves being the victims of evil human aggression would be far too black-and-white (not to mention, boring) for a game universe that often operates in shades of grey.

I suspect that it is the human accounts of that conflict that have the ring of truth to them. The Elves probably were the aggressors and sparked the conflict that brought their own downfall. The humans however were not entirely blameless, as they turned a just defensive war into an unjust war of annihilation that completely destroyed Elven civilization and reduced a great many of the Elves to servitude. And of course the ones being oppressed in alienages in the current age had absolutely nothing to do with the wars of the past.

Shades of grey.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:26 .

[Xilizhra]

The Elves being the victims of evil human aggression would be far too black-and-white (not to mention, boring) for a game universe that often operates in shades of grey.

You'd think, except that Tevinter's only role has ever been to be black.

I suspect that it is the human accounts of that conflict that have the ring of truth to them. The Elves probably were the aggressors. The humans then overreacted by turning a defensive war into one of annihilation that completely destroyed Elven civilization and reduced a great many of the Elves to servitude. And of course the ones being oppressed in alienages in the current age had absolutely nothing to do with the wars of the past.

And now Orlais burns. What a shame.

[Han Shot First]

There is a phrase from history that could be applied to the Elves of Dragon Age:

"Woe to the vanquished."

Modifié par Han Shot First, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:27 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Unless you find out that the elven immortality relied on blood magic - blood magic derived from slaughter of humans - humans who rebelled and became Tevinter.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Unless you find out that the elven immortality relied on blood magic - blood magic derived from slaughter of humans - humans who rebelled and became Tevinter.

Perhaps. We might also find out that living griffon gods demanded that Tevinter wage war upon Arlathan so that they may eat their holy eggs, or somesuch.

There is a phrase from history that could be applied to the Elves of Dragon Age:

"Woe to the vanquished."

Not all who were vanquished once remain so forever.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:36 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

BigEvil wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Exalted Marches aren't that common. And they aren't called unless there is a threat to the Chantry as a whole.

You're missing the point. It's not about how common they are or if they would be called, it's that they can use them as a threat. The freedom to convert to the Chantry or not, isn't actually free when it's done under that threat. The Qunari are at least up-front about them converting forcefully.

I think how common they are is a very important distinction. It also is worth noting that the Chantry has never called an Exalted March exclusively to convert heathans into Andrastians. Unlike the Qunari. The closest thing is when the Divine tried to end the schism in Tevinter, but that was more about a poltical rebellion in the Imperial Chantry. Converting others by a the sword is a more important part of Qunari dogma than in Chantry.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Unless you find out that the elven immortality relied on blood magic - blood magic derived from slaughter of humans - humans who rebelled and became Tevinter.

There's no proof that the ancient elves did blood sacrifices using humans and I believe that was just a tale the Chantry made up to gain more support during the Dales conflict.

[cjones91]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Exalted Marches aren't that common. And they aren't called unless there is a threat to the Chantry as a whole.

You're missing the point. It's not about how common they are or if they would be called, it's that they can use them as a threat. The freedom to convert to the Chantry or not, isn't actually free when it's done under that threat. The Qunari are at least up-front about them converting forcefully.

I think how common they are is a very important distinction. It also is worth noting that the Chantry has never called an Exalted March exclusively to convert heathans into Andrastians. Unlike the Qunari. The closest thing is when the Divine tried to end the schism in Tevinter, but that was more about a poltical rebellion in the Imperial Chantry. Converting others by a the sword is a more important part of Qunari dogma than in Chantry.

The original Exalted March of Andraste involved destroying the Tevinter Imperium because they worshiped the Old Gods.Not to mention the Exalted March of the Dales was based around religious beliefs conflicting with each other and the Chantry wanted to convert the elves who had resisted.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Andraste's Exalted March was before the Chantry. I was referring to the modern organization. It was also about overthrowing the brutally despotic Tevinter Imperium and many of Andraste's followers were elves who presumably didn't worship the Maker. Are you going to argue that defeating the Imperium wasn't a worthwhile goal?

I also never said that Exalted Marches never involved inter religious conflict, I said they are never called only to convert an unbelieving nation. The Exalted Marches on the Dales and the Qunari were each called to win a war that already existed.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:45 .

[thats1evildude]

In bed? I'd say the Chantry. Sure, some of them may be sworn to celibacy, but I imagine the qunari treat sex as a pretty dispassionate affair.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:50 .

[Knight of Dane]

Neither

[RobRam10]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Andraste's Exalted March was before the Chantry. I was referring to the modern organization. It was also about overthrowing the brutally despotic Tevinter Imperium and many of Andraste's followers were elves who presumably didn't worship the Maker. Are you going to argue that defeating the Imperium wasn't a worthwhile goal?

I also never said that Exalted Marches never involved inter religious conflict, I said they are never called only to convert an unbelieving nation. The Exalted Marches on the Dales and the Qunari were each called to win a war that already existed.

Trying to defeat the glorious Tevinter Imperium is a massive sin.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Does....that mean the Tevinter Gods massively sinned against themselves during the Blights?

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Does....that mean the Tevinter Gods massively sinned against themselves during the Blights?

More the darkspawn doing so and driving them insane.

Also, I actually agree that in terms of doctrine, the Imperial Chantry is best. It's just that the rest of Tevinter is so badly off that its impact is limited.

[RobRam10]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Does....that mean the Tevinter Gods massively sinned against themselves during the Blights?

Exactly sinception.

[Plaintiff]

"Do you want to a kick in the nuts? Or do you want a kick in the nuts AND a punch in the face?"

One ticket for Chantry, please.

[cjones91]

Plaintiff wrote...

"Do you want to a kick in the nuts? Or do you want a kick in the nuts AND a punch in the face?"

One ticket for Chantry, please.

Despite the Qun being bad on paper,it does have some benefits and gives people a purpose in life.