123 réponses à ce sujet

[Chala]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Overall though, the Bioware staff that have talked about modding in the BSN seem to approve, recognising that it increases the life of the product (which is certainly to their benefit as well as the players'). It is not a question of whether they WANT to allow modding, but whether they CAN. They're in a postition where they can't provide 3rd party tools (eg: the toolset) to mod the game because of licensing, so eith they charge (fans boo) or they strip it down (editors boo). Like Mass Effect, I imagine coding-capable fans will end up providing the tools, like Gibbed.

There is this, and even then DAO's toolset required a separate group of programmers and testers to work on it to strip out licensed middleware and other such things, and even then it still provided an extra challenge and there were several issues that came once the toolset was available (particularly with it reseting people's plot states of their already existing game because whoops).

BioWare has released two games with end user toolsets, so we do recognize the benefits that can come with it.

I think more developers will begin to appreciate modding over time. The Elder Scrolls series wouldn't do nearly as well without the modding aspect. I can honestly say that I would never have bought Skyrim or even attempted to complete Oblivion if the modding tools weren't a part of it.

I see this come up, and I haven't played Skyrim but I have to ask: can you mod the console version of Skyrim?

Yes you can... But only if your console has RGH/JTAG or CFW, which it's not entirely legal

[Pink Pony]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ragewin wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ragewin wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You certainly can mod the console versions, but it's much more difficult and far less common.

Also not legal. 

I'm not sure it is illegal, per se. It voids the warranty, sure. And it violates the User Agreement between you and the console manufacturer. 

But that's not illegal. If it was, you could have cops kicking down your door when you put a metallic fork in a microwave. 

You can get fined for it, because it violates the user agreement. Third party programs aren't allowed, whether Sony or Microsoft. Or Nintendo. Or others.

A company can THREATEN fines. But it can't enforce them, not legitimately. That's, in a small part, what the EULA has been about - a User Agreement for software or hardware (or any product) which a consumer has bought and paid for and now has the ownership of does not trump the implicit ability of a consumer to do anything with property they legally obtained. 

I'm no legal expert, so I'll defer to others who may know better... but no one can be arrested or prosecuted for modding their Xbox.

You're correct. At most a person will be prevented from using the online service. It is definitely not illegal; it just voids the warranty and the license agreement. The only realistic way I would imagine a person would be affected financially is they would lose all the money they have in their account as well as losing the time they had paid for on their subscription.

[JamieCOTC]

Modding Skyrim on consoles is possible, though it's a long, tedious process, more so than modding ME on X-Box. It's not illegal, but it is in violation of Microsoft and Sony EULAs.  There's even a disclaimer on Skyrim Nexus about the topic. That said, it's something that Bethesda has looked into as they would like to find a way to bring mods to consoles. Getting back to Dragon Age and BioWare modding does have significant advantages. I recently replayed DA:O with a ton of mods installed and it brought a freshness to the game. Mods made my Hawke look better in DA2 and I was able to get rid of the ugly (and too big for her) suit femHawke was wearing for MotA. And in ME3, it took mods for me and countless others to get their Shepard back.  For a game like Skyrim, mods are practically a must, for Dragon Age they may not be a must, but they and (and sometimes fix) so much to the game.

[zMataxa]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins takes max 30 hours to complete, if you suck or are an ultra completionist.
Skyrim has content that can keep you going for over 300 hours if you aren't the type that gets bored with traveling and one style of fighting.

___________

IMO, you're a skyrim fan first.
Your main argument seemed to be centred on Skyrim longevity trumping DAO.
How you managed to whip through DAO in 30 hours is beyond me.
And I play lotsa titles on insane setting - so i know i don't "suck".  And no, I'm not an ultra completionist either.

If you go to DeviantArt, you'll see an abundance of DA and ME art.  And I mean abundance.
Skyrim art? There's hardly any.
People there have done multiple playthroughs.
Many people here at BSN have confessed the same.  It wouldn't surprise me that 300 hours is light for many ME and DA fans - when  you factor in EVERYTHING.

In short, I don't agree in with your point that Skyrim has a greater longevity than Bioware's offerings.
For you it is true, for others not so. (Yeah, sure it's more popular in terms of numbers - but so what.  Things aren't always about being Popular Flavor#1 with the greatest total $.  Bioware has a great following - even DA2 financial numbers were respectable. )

So back on topic, Bioware has a great opportunity to explore modding as a way to make more $ and seat Bioware even deeper into several niches of the gaming community.

Modifié par zMataxa, 11 octobre 2013 - 07:39 .

[movieguyabw]

sumojellybean wrote...

As a Skyrim modder myself, I'd say, yes, from what the images my downloaders sometimes send to me on the nexus, it is possible at least on the 360 to mod a game, though it probably skims the lines between what is legal per say.

If a toolset cannot be ever provided, (and from the looks of it, I doubt it would ever happen), but I hope there can be leeway to do the simplest of things: ie, NPC face morphs and retextures. They're the most abundant, and easiest to make, and really do improve the aesthetics of a gaming experience. I kind of would have been left a different impressions with the DA:O NPCs if I hadn't installed Dracomies NPCs or haven't edited them myself. xD

In my experience, modders will always find a way.  At least as far as the PC is concerned.

We didn't have an official modding tool with KOTOR - yet the community was able to come up with their own, over time, which has allowed for quite a lot of possibilities.

And for the longest time, ME3 was considered unmoddable - but even they now have their own community built tool.

Not that an official tool wouldn't be appreciated, or that we aren't really hoping for one (because I know I'm really holding out for it, personally).  However, necessity is the mother of all invention.  And given enough time (admittedly though, it would be a lot of time), we'd be able to figure out how to play with the files *safely*, to get desired results.

[werewoof]

it's a toss up. bethesda's devotion to its modding community has given its games maybe greater longevity than they might have had otherwise because of the wide range of things you can do with mods. creators and people who just use the mods can keep their game going that way. but this is limited to pc (not that i would complain about that admittedly, since i havent even touched a console) and its what has held them back from an engine upgrade, leaving us with a clunky, albeit hilarious at times, outdated engine.

bioware is upgrading, so da:i should be functionally a lot better than both is predecessors and the bethesda games we've brought up. but it'll also allow less freedom because ea won't want to let anyone get a hold of frostbite. it's hard to have both.

that all being said i think bioware should look into the modding community. i think one of the many reasons da2 was a disappointment was because it was clearly unfinished and without a toolkit we were mostly stuck that way, there wasn't much room to improve on it like there might have been with a toolkit.

[Ghaleon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Overall though, the Bioware staff that have talked about modding in the BSN seem to approve, recognising that it increases the life of the product (which is certainly to their benefit as well as the players'). It is not a question of whether they WANT to allow modding, but whether they CAN. They're in a postition where they can't provide 3rd party tools (eg: the toolset) to mod the game because of licensing, so eith they charge (fans boo) or they strip it down (editors boo). Like Mass Effect, I imagine coding-capable fans will end up providing the tools, like Gibbed.

There is this, and even then DAO's toolset required a separate group of programmers and testers to work on it to strip out licensed middleware and other such things, and even then it still provided an extra challenge and there were several issues that came once the toolset was available (particularly with it reseting people's plot states of their already existing game because whoops).

BioWare has released two games with end user toolsets, so we do recognize the benefits that can come with it.

I think more developers will begin to appreciate modding over time. The Elder Scrolls series wouldn't do nearly as well without the modding aspect. I can honestly say that I would never have bought Skyrim or even attempted to complete Oblivion if the modding tools weren't a part of it.

I see this come up, and I haven't played Skyrim but I have to ask: can you mod the console version of Skyrim?

Yea it's possible on consoles not easiest thing and a possible legal/illegal gray area.
With the PS4, Xbox One and Steambox all on the way i think console modding of games will reach levels it has on the PC.
Slightly OT Blizzard does very much encourage modding(Add-ons) this was to those saying they do not.

[JerZey CJ]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Overall though, the Bioware staff that have talked about modding in the BSN seem to approve, recognising that it increases the life of the product (which is certainly to their benefit as well as the players'). It is not a question of whether they WANT to allow modding, but whether they CAN. They're in a postition where they can't provide 3rd party tools (eg: the toolset) to mod the game because of licensing, so eith they charge (fans boo) or they strip it down (editors boo). Like Mass Effect, I imagine coding-capable fans will end up providing the tools, like Gibbed.

There is this, and even then DAO's toolset required a separate group of programmers and testers to work on it to strip out licensed middleware and other such things, and even then it still provided an extra challenge and there were several issues that came once the toolset was available (particularly with it reseting people's plot states of their already existing game because whoops).

BioWare has released two games with end user toolsets, so we do recognize the benefits that can come with it.

I think more developers will begin to appreciate modding over time. The Elder Scrolls series wouldn't do nearly as well without the modding aspect. I can honestly say that I would never have bought Skyrim or even attempted to complete Oblivion if the modding tools weren't a part of it.

I see this come up, and I haven't played Skyrim but I have to ask: can you mod the console version of Skyrim?

Sadly, you can not(legally). But Bethesda has mentioned that they would like to bring it to consoles, but MS and Sony won't let that happen.

[Magdalena11]

I like mods. Even more if they play nice with each other. Sadly, I don't think we'll be seeing them.

[Allan Schumacher]

People took the commentary about whether or not mods on the consoles in the wrong direction.

I'm not interested in discussing the legality of it. I was inquiring because maybe the credit for Skyrim being successful is because it's a game that had a wide appeal.

Here's the unfortunate thing about the situation though: we can't know for sure how many people would've just not bought the game if the modding kit wasn't available.

It's also not as if BioWare doesn't have experience releasing and supporting an End User toolset, as it was done both with Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age: Origins. A decision to not release a toolset isn't simply made in an ignorant vacuum where we're clueless as to the advantages and disadvantages of what it may take to bring the Frostbite editor to a state where we could release it without having to deal with licensee issues and how much potential benefit we'll get from it.

The best way to release it would be for us to replace the third party middleware (which EA studios has slowly been doing... there's less 3rd party middleware in Frostbite now than there was in Battlefield: Bad Company, for instance) with our own in house technology. Once it's 100% ours, it becomes a lot easier of a decision.

[Magdalena11]

Thank you for addressing this, Mr. Schumacher. I'm not happy with your news but I appreciate you having taken the time to respond.

[zMataxa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The best way to release it would be for us to replace the third party middleware (which EA studios has slowly been doing... there's less 3rd party middleware in Frostbite now than there was in Battlefield: Bad Company, for instance) with our own in house technology. Once it's 100% ours, it becomes a lot easier of a decision.

___________________

I like the direction of your posts Allan on this topic over the last while.
I realize there's no promises or guarantees.
But still, there's a glimmer of light again at the end of the long dark Frostbite tunnel and for what the undetermined future may bring.
So thanx for that little tibit.  Much appreciated.

[zMataxa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Here's the unfortunate thing about the situation though: we can't know for sure how many people would've just not bought the game if the modding kit wasn't available.

______________

I would add - I wouldn't agree with the implication that what works for Skyrim fans would work for Bioware fans in terms of modding and what it means for sales.  Sure, there's a fair bit of overlap in fans - but there's some SUBSTANNIAL differences as well.

[Huntress]

Navasha wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think more developers will begin to appreciate modding over time. The Elder Scrolls series wouldn't do nearly as well without the modding aspect. I can honestly say that I would never have bought Skyrim or even attempted to complete Oblivion if the modding tools weren't a part of it.

I see this come up, and I haven't played Skyrim but I have to ask: can you mod the console version of Skyrim?

If you are asking not actually about the possibility of modding on a console, but rather judging success of a game whose primary audience doesn't have access to mods, then my answer is still yes.

http://www.joystiq.c...ther-pc-titles/

I am not saying that Skyrim wouldn't have done well without modding.    Clearly its a popular game for consoles as well.   However, the 3 to 1 ratio for the PC market is significant.    If you can sell an additional million copies of a game by including modding, that is probably worth the price of development. 

By 2013 Skyrim has sold 14 million, not counting digital copies.
Source:
http://gamrconnect.v...d.php?id=153895

Mod's made this game alot better:wizard:

[Tup3x]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

People took the commentary about whether or not mods on the consoles in the wrong direction.

I'm not interested in discussing the legality of it. I was inquiring because maybe the credit for Skyrim being successful is because it's a game that had a wide appeal.

Here's the unfortunate thing about the situation though: we can't know for sure how many people would've just not bought the game if the modding kit wasn't available.

It's also not as if BioWare doesn't have experience releasing and supporting an End User toolset, as it was done both with Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age: Origins. A decision to not release a toolset isn't simply made in an ignorant vacuum where we're clueless as to the advantages and disadvantages of what it may take to bring the Frostbite editor to a state where we could release it without having to deal with licensee issues and how much potential benefit we'll get from it.

The best way to release it would be for us to replace the third party middleware (which EA studios has slowly been doing... there's less 3rd party middleware in Frostbite now than there was in Battlefield: Bad Company, for instance) with our own in house technology. Once it's 100% ours, it becomes a lot easier of a decision.

Let's put it this way: Would you think that Skyrim would be anywhere near as popular as it is now without modding tools? I don't think it would. I can guarantee one thin: There would be much, much less Skyrim videos in YouTube. Mods and the attention they get are free advertisement for the game too.

Modifié par Tup3xi, 11 octobre 2013 - 09:49 .

[David7204]

I would estimate the number of people who seriously use mods to be less than 5%. And I think even that's optimistic.

And that's out of people who purchase and play moddable games, not the general video game player population.

Modifié par David7204, 11 octobre 2013 - 09:57 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David7204 wrote...

I would estimate the number of people who seriously use mods to be less than 5%. And I think even that's optimistic.

And that's out of people who purchase and play moddable games, not the general video game player population.

SkyUI alone, a mod which improves Skyrim's user interface, have been downloaded more than 2 million times.  That's nearly 2 downloads for every three PC copies of Skyrim sold.

This is very good evidence that vastly more than 5% of PC users of Skyrim installed at least one mod.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Huntress wrote...

By 2013 Skyrim has sold 14 million, not counting digital copies.
Source:
http://gamrconnect.v...d.php?id=153895

I, for one, bought a digital copy.

I suspect that digital copies now make up a majority of the PC game market.

[David7204]

Huh.

That seems awfully unlikely. I'm thinking of possible alternate explanations.

[Sylvius the Mad]

For the record, I have not downloaded SkyUI or installed SkyUI. But I have installed other mods.

[Ninja Stan]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

A company can THREATEN fines. But it can't enforce them, not legitimately. That's, in a small part, what the EULA has been about - a User Agreement for software or hardware (or any product) which a consumer has bought and paid for and now has the ownership of does not trump the implicit ability of a consumer to do anything with property they legally obtained. 

I'm no legal expert, so I'll defer to others who may know better... but no one can be arrested or prosecuted for modding their Xbox.

This line of discussion is off-topic.

[Navasha]

David7204 wrote...

Huh.

That seems awfully unlikely. I'm thinking of possible alternate explanations.

You have to also realize that installing mods is a whole lot easier now than it used to be as well.   The Steam Workshop installs mods for you by clicking a button.   In years past, using mods required a bit of knowledge of file structure, load orders, editing *.ini files, and the like.  

You can simply click on button now and experience a wide array of good mods with all the behind the scenes stuff done for you.    That significantly changes the number of people who use mods.

[slimgrin]

Whatever EA's view of it is. And EA's view is, don't do it.

[David7204]

We have these statistics that only 20% of players or whatever actually finish games. That most players ignore romance in games that offer it. That it's uncommon for players to have multiple playthroughs of games, including ones that offer content that takes multiple playthroughs to see. That basically, most players play lots of games shallowly and move on quickly.

And it's odd, because all of that completely goes against my impressions.

And then we have statistics here that two-thirds of PC Skyrim players download mods. Something that I would think would generally only occur with 'deep,' dedicated players. People who want to get the most of the experience, who enjoy taking the time to explore the nooks and crannies. 

And that also goes against my impressions. But it seems to me to be generally the opposite thing. It's of course possible to mod a game and not finish it, but I would think it would be somewhat rare.

This just doesn't match up at all.

Modifié par David7204, 11 octobre 2013 - 10:19 .

[Pordis Shepard]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
<snip>
It's also not as if BioWare doesn't have experience releasing and supporting an End User toolset, as it was done both with Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age: Origins. A decision to not release a toolset isn't simply made in an ignorant vacuum where we're clueless as to the advantages and disadvantages of what it may take to bring the Frostbite editor to a state where we could release it without having to deal with licensee issues and how much potential benefit we'll get from it.

The best way to release it would be for us to replace the third party middleware (which EA studios has slowly been doing... there's less 3rd party middleware in Frostbite now than there was in Battlefield: Bad Company, for instance) with our own in house technology. Once it's 100% ours, it becomes a lot easier of a decision.

This is great to hear.  I personally would love to see more modding toolkits released for games.  It really enhances the play/replay value for me. b^.^d