14 réponses à ce sujet

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

 Don't worry, this isn't quite as generic as "DROP YOUR PICKS ON ME PEOPLE"

Note: I'll add more questions as they come up. Thanks!

I'm about to start playing a vanilla BG2 game as a Sorcerer, probably in a fairly-typical party environment. However, it's been a long time since I've played.

#1) I've noticed some people tend to take both Invisibility (lvl 2) and Improved Invisibility (lvl 4) on their Sorcerers. What's the rationale behind that?

#2) How useful is Resist Fear (lvl 2) in typical BG2 party setting? I know it can be useful against Demons/Dragons/some mages, and can see why it might be crucial for a Solo Sorc, but is this still considered a strong (or at least decent) pick in a party environment?

#3) Glitterdust (lvl) 2 has a powerful effect, but only lasts for a few rounds. Is this one of those spells that is dramatically better in environments like SCS when enemy mages run SI:D, but isn't as great of a choice in unmodded BG2?

#4) Remove Magic (lvl 3) is generally better than Dispel Magic (lvl3) for Sorcerers, right? Here's the rationale I see: You don't want to dispell your own defenses accidentally. If you're a soloist, you're not going to be using dispel to save party members from negative status effects, and if you're in a party, can't your cleric (or secondary mage) handle the dispel duties?

#5) Improved Invisibility seems to be an almost universal pick- is this primarily because they're using II in combination with SI:D? In a vanilla game the BG2 enemies seem almost pathologically incapable of dealing with that combination, to the point where it can feel like playing dirty against enemy spellcasters. If you're not willing to exploit this, is Spell Immunity still a pick worth taking in the vanilla game?

Modifié par ExFalsoQuodlibet, 11 octobre 2013 - 08:19 .

[Alesia_BH]

Hey there hi there! I just thought I'd quickly respond to a few of your questions.

#1) I've noticed some people tend to take both Invisibility (lvl 2) and Improved Invisibility (lvl 4) on their Sorcerers. What's the rationale behind that?

While selecting both Invisibility and Improved Invisibility may seem pointless, they can serve substantially different tactical purposes.

Personally I use Invisibility to evade area transition ambushes and to steath through areas (the duration of 24 hours make it perfect for those applications). It can also be helpful as an additional means of frustrating spell targetting. Let's say I've been targetted with a spell and would like to prevent it from completing by vanishing. With Invisibility in my book, I can achieve that end by casting at L2 rather than L4.

II, on the other hand, is useful as a save buff and an AC buff. It additionally serves as a defense against spell targetting- particularly when paired with SI:D. It's a multi-functional combat buff.

#2) How useful is Resist Fear (lvl 2) in typical BG2 party setting?

There is something to be said for having a self-sufficient PC. Nonetheless, Resist Fear is certainly skippable if you have divine casters around.

#3) Glitterdust (lvl) 2 has a powerful effect, but only lasts for a few rounds. Is this one of those spells that is dramatically better in environments like SCS when enemy mages run SI:D, but isn't as great of a choice in unmodded BG2?

It's a defensible choice in vanilla. It's basically a cheap, party-friendly AoE disabler. Horror fills a similar niche at the same level, however, blindness immunity is far less common than fear immunity. I tend to take Glitterdust with party mages and or if I've decided to skip the globes.

#4) Remove Magic (lvl 3) is generally better than Dispel Magic (lvl3) for Sorcerers, right?

Agreed- though I'm sure there are some who feel Dispel Magic is a better choice in light of their playing style. I personally prefer Remove. 

#5) Improved Invisibility seems to be an almost universal pick- is this primarily because they're using II in combination with SI:D?

Not necessarily II exactly, but yes: something which provides that functionality is pretty standard (Some prefer to take Shadow Doors at 5).

Most in-the-know sorcerers are selecting II with the intent of pairing it with SI:D, however, it serves other purposes as well. The AC bonus and save bonus are both potentially valuable in a wide variety of contexts.  

In a vanilla game the BG2 enemies seem almost pathologically incapable of dealing with that combination, to the point where it can feel like playing dirty against enemy spellcasters. If you're not willing to exploit this, is Spell Immunity still a pick worth taking in the vanilla game?

I can understand your hesitance to use SI:D + II against vanilla mages. It does trivialize them.

I use SCS in part because it gives enemy mages avenues for dealing with SI:D + II.

Anyhoo. Even if you aren't willing to use SI:D, SI is still a no brainer pick to my mind. A few examples of how it can be used...

SI:Ab- Against Remove, Dispel, and Imprisonment
SI:C- Against Glitterdust, Maze, Power Words, and Symbols
SI:En- Against Malison and disabling enchantments
SI:Ev- Against Web and elemental energy attack spells such as Sunfire, Chain Lightning, Death Fog, etc
SI:N- Against Wilting, FoD, and Skull Traps

This list is far from exhaustive of course. SI is a powerful and elegant spell if you know how to use it. I wouldn't build a book without it.

Good luck building your sorcerer. Best of luck!

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 12 octobre 2013 - 06:16 .

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

I apologize to everyone - this post is a lot less coherent (and a bit more generic) than the first.

 Alesia, thanks for your input! Could you clarify some things?:

For Invisibility (lvl 2) then, it would seem that this is a spell whose utility increases as party size decreases, (assuming a somewhat-typical party configuration comprised of Bioware NPCs+PC) at least with regards to the stealth/ambush avoidance applications. As for the spell-dodging, enemy thieves certainly do that to me all the time, but that doesn't cost them precious spell slots - and more importantly, I'm not quite sure I have the tactical chops to pull it off properly against other enemy mages.
You said you took Glitterdust with party mages if you decided to "skip the globes" - I'm guessing the alternative here would be to take Web (lvl 2) and one of the Globes at 4 or 6? Couldn't you just rely on SI:Ev as you mentioned rather than the Globes for that purpose? (not that it doesn't help to have both, I can see how having to put up 3-4 SI:Whatever's for a single encounter would burn through your lvl 5 slots quickly, just asking)

Ok, everyone else (but also Alessia!):

I'm primarily concerened with rounding out my level 2/3/4/5 picks for now, but I'll definitely appreciate all sorts of comments, even if they're "just make sure you pick one spell that provides this function" etc. Also, I'm trying to give lists of spells I'm looking at, but if you think something not on my list merits serious consideration, please let me know!

Level 2: MI and MAA are locked in; I'm trying to decide between Blur, Invis, Resist Fear, Web, and Glitterdust for the last 3 slots. Web and Glitterdust fulfill basically the same role as offensive disablers so I probably won't take both, but I'm still undecided - Glitterdust is party-friendly and has a secondary role as enemy invisibility remover, but only lasts for 4 rounds, whereas web lasts for 1 turn, and has a -2 saving throw penalty, but isn't party friendly. I'd love to hear someone make a case for or against any of these!

Level 3: MMM, Skull Trap, and Remove Magic (thanks Alessia!) are now locked in for level 3, I'll fill the 4th slot with either Haste or Slow, then take either the other of the two or Flame Arrow as my last pick unless someone makes a convincing case for something else at level 3. Haste or Slow or both and opinions on Flame Arrow, anyone? Anything else seriously worth considering?

Level 4: Stoneskin and II are both locked in, but level 4 has a whole lot of other interesting stuff to offer. Teleport Field, Polymorph Self, Greater Malison, Emotion, Ice Storm, Minor Sequencer and Farsight all come to mind as potential options. HELP ME PICK SOME!!!
- Teleport Field is awesome, but I think is the kind of spell that lends itself better to solo play - or at least nontraditional (highly ranged/magic-focus with little melee presence) party composition and starts to rapidly lose effectiveness when you have a "front line" of melee fighters you -really- want to keep in the front. Still worth it in a party??- Farsight is the kind of spell that I feel like lends itself well to later summoner-type play via Animate Dead (level 5), Mordenkainen's Sword (lvl 7), and even Project Image (lvl 7). Not entirely sure if I want to go that route but I can definitely see how it would work.
- Ice Storm looks like a mediocre damage-over-time spell from the description, unless I'm missing something here, but it is nice to have a direct damage option on every level, plus this would open me up to a previously unexplored damage type.
- Greater Malison looks like an awesome spell on paper - -4 to all enemy saves! I'm honestly confused as to why I don't see this in more Sorcerer spell books. 
- Emotion is a nice, party-friendly, save-or-else disabler. I've also heard it adds some version of resist fear to the caster though I'm not sure on the details in that particular area. Anyone know how that works? I also don't see this on many sorcerer spells lists and don't really know why.
- Polymorph Self has multiple applications, including its (imho a bit cheesy) 100% magic resistant mustard jelly form, its unfortunately NOT (afaik) immune-to-web Spider form, and it's flind form for flaming weaponry (although I rarely see a situation in which MMM wouldn't be a more-or-at-least-equally effective route compared to flind form)
- Minor Sequencer is probably my least likely pick here, but deserves to be mentioned because it could provide me with additional alpha-strike capability (2x MAA or MM vs wizards), or a double-disable (2x Web if I take it), or a "oh I messed up" button (MI/Invis if I take it).

Level 5: Spell Immunity is a lock. There are currently 5 candidates for the last 4 spots: Breach, Lower Resistance, Sunfire, Animate Dead and Spell Shield. I'm strongly leaning towards taking Sunfire, party or no, because there's plenty of +fire resistance equipment/spells around and sunfire ignores magic resistance, which could be extremely useful in adding utility to this character against magic-immune enemes (e.g. mind flayers, drow, etc)  I'd also strongly appreciate anyone who goes DEFINITELY THINK ABOUT XXXX HERE (where xxxx is some spell I didn't mention)

Level 6: PfMW for sure, but I tend to see a LOT of variation on sorcerer spell books at this level and I'm looking for some input. Death Spell, True Sight, GoI, Spell Deflection, Contingency, Imp. Haste, and Pierce Magic are just some of the other spells I'm looking at here. 

Modifié par ExFalsoQuodlibet, 12 octobre 2013 - 03:40 .

[Grond0]

ExFalsoQuodlibet wrote...
For Invisibility (lvl 2) then, it would seem that this is a spell whose utility increases as party size decreases

Fair comment.

Web and Glitterdust fulfill basically the same role as offensive disablers so I probably won't take both, but I'm still undecided - Glitterdust is party-friendly and has a secondary role as enemy invisibility remover, but only lasts for 4 rounds, whereas web lasts for 1 turn, and has a -2 saving throw penalty, but isn't party friendly. I'd love to hear someone make a case for or against any of these!

Web can be very useful just because it affects neutrals as well as enemies.  I also prefer it because enemies affected can be hit automatically, allowing quick damage on high level fighter types. 

There's a case for detect invisibility, though that will depend on your later choices and what spells other party members carry around.

Level 3: MMM, Skull Trap, and Remove Magic (thanks Alessia!) are now locked in for level 3, I'll fill the 4th slot with either Haste or Slow, then take either the other of the two or Flame Arrow as my last pick unless someone makes a convincing case for something else at level 3. Haste or Slow or both and opinions on Flame Arrow, anyone? Anything else seriously worth considering?

Invisibility 10' would be a good choice for some players, but that will depend on game style.  I like MSD, but that's in the context of solo play and probably not worth it in a party.  You might want to consider protection from fire as that can be useful in many contexts and is more effective / longer lasting than divine alternatives.

Level 4: Stoneskin and II are both locked in, but level 4 has a whole lot of other interesting stuff to offer. Teleport Field, Polymorph Self, Greater Malison, Emotion, Ice Storm, Minor Sequencer and Farsight all come to mind as potential options. [b]HELP ME PICK SOME!!!

I agree L4 spells spoil a sorcerer for choice.  I also agree greater malison is very useful.  Particularly in a party context that would work well for you (I'm fond of web + malison + cloudkill).  Emotion gives resist fear on the caster, but in a party that's probably redundant given that the cleric spell is an area effect.

Other possibilities could include:
- confusion (negative spell save and can be used to get enemies to fight each other without the party showing themselves)
- fireshield (if your sorcerer wants to buff to go into melee)

Level 5: Spell Immunity is a lock. There are currently 5 candidates for the last 4 spots: Breach, Lower Resistance, Sunfire, Animate Dead and Spell Shield. I'm strongly leaning towards taking Sunfire, party or no, because there's plenty of +fire resistance equipment/spells around and sunfire ignores magic resistance, which could be extremely useful in adding utility to this character against magic-immune enemes (e.g. mind flayers, drow, etc)  I'd also strongly appreciate anyone who goes DEFINITELY THINK ABOUT XXXX HERE (where xxxx is some spell I didn't mention)

Chaos is an alternative if you don't take confusion (-4 to saves, -8 with malison).  Oracle's also a possibility depending on your other picks.  Protection from acid provides a hard to find resistance, but is probably better kept for a standard mage if you have one.  Spell shield is very useful for solo/SCS play, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth it in your situation.

Level 6: PfMW for sure, but I tend to see a LOT of variation on sorcerer spell books at this level and I'm looking for some input. Death Spell, True Sight, GoI, Spell Deflection, Contingency, Imp. Haste, and Pierce Magic are just some of the other spells I'm looking at here.

Your warriors will certainly thank your for IH.  Combined with MMM it's also pretty vicious for you!  Contingency could be a life saver and has specific tactical applications (allowing you to effectively start a combat with a free spell).  I'd pick death fog over death spell, but again that's influenced by solo play and you might not want to have to keep out of the fog.  Invisible stalkers can be helpful in scouting as well as battle situations.  PW: silence can help you shut down enemy spellcasters (repeat if needed for those with vocalise).  PfME is great for a solo player casting skull traps at his own feet and is also quite well suited for party play (put it on a single tank and skull trap the gathered enemies).  Tenser's is another spell that can be very useful, but less so for a party.

[Alesia_BH]

Alesia, thanks for your input! Could you clarify some things?

Sure.  

For Invisibility (lvl 2) then, it would seem that this is a spell whose utility increases as party size decreases, (assuming a somewhat-typical party configuration comprised of Bioware NPCs+PC) at least with regards to the stealth/ambush avoidance applications.

You could say that, yes. With a full party I'd be more likely to have a NPC cast Invisibility 10' Radius. It is worth noting though that a sorcerer can cast 6 L2s per day at BGII levels.

As for the spell-dodging, enemy thieves certainly do that to me all the time, but that doesn't cost them precious spell slots - and more importantly, I'm not quite sure I have the tactical chops to pull it off properly against other enemy mages.

Understood. When I use that tactic it's typically in situations where I've inferred which spell is being cast from the context and know that I'll have enough time to complete my Invisibility cast before my enemy completes his or her spell. It can be an effective move in mage duels since it can allow you to foil an enemy's higher level spell while personally consuming a mere L2. Depending on your playing style that could be difficult to execute, however.  

I tend to select Invisibility in solo triology games. I'd be less likely to do so in a BG2 party game like the one you're contemplating.

You said you took Glitterdust with party mages if you decided to "skip the globes" I'm guessing the alternative here would be to take Web (lvl 2) and one of the Globes at 4 or 6?

Yes. If I'm solo and intend to take Globe of Invulnerability at L6 (I've never taken MGOI), I'm more likely to take Web. If I've decided to skip GoI, Glitterdust becomes more appealing.

This is one of the many cases in which reasonable people can have different opinions. It all depends on your personal playing style.

Couldn't you just rely on SI:Ev as you mentioned rather than the Globes for that purpose?

Unfortunately, SI:Ev won't protect against your own evocation spells (at least it doesn't in the installs I've played).

I can see how having to put up 3-4 SI:Whatever's for a single encounter would burn through your lvl 5 slots quickly, just asking)

I'm glad you're thinking about bottlenecks: they're an important consideration. 

And you're absolutely right that taking additional spell immunities can cause you to run out of L5s. That's actually one of the main reasons why I find GoI appealing. In particular, it allows me to take my Malison defense through L6 rather than through L5 in the form of SI:En.

Best,

A.

Btw. I'll comment on your spell choice dilemmas tomorrow.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 12 octobre 2013 - 06:36 .

[ussnorway]

If you are going to play a sorcerer then 'invisible' is standard (even in a group).
1.    It stays on longer.
2.    It fits inside a minor sequencer.

Some spells don't break stealth and this makes stealth tactics viable eg. My favourite l5 spell for Trisha (sorceress) was the humble 'Sunfire'… nothing much to look at damage wise but it does not break invisible and she could pack three of them into a trigger.

Typical hard battle = she walks up (stealthy) to stand beside a group and fires her 3X 'Sunfire' trigger… then simply walks back (still stealthy) to my party whist the guys finish off any survivors.

'Glitterdust' works best in scs but is also safe to use around friendly targets...I don't take ImpInv because I don't like to enter combat with a sorceress... others do.

[Satyricon331]

There isn't much left to say b/c people have nailed it already, but it might be worth it to add some points -

Level 2: MI and MAA are locked in; I'm trying to decide between Blur, Invis, Resist Fear, Web, and Glitterdust for the last 3 slots. [...]

Level 2 will be pretty forgiving, but if you're taking a party I'd avoid Web simply b/c it'd have a chance of holding your own fighters - it can be tough to stay on top of their pathing to keep them out unless they're good doing ranged attacks.

Consider Luck. It's unpopular b/c of its duration, but its 3-round duration stacks nicely with Improved Alacrity in the late game. You can stack the two spells and then unload basically all of your damage spells, which will hit for slightly more damage (there are differing accounts of how exactly the numbers work on the rolls, though). Luck and Mirror Image are among the few here that can help late game, which is when the arcane casters should start carrying the weight. Also, if you have the Fixpack, it provides +1 to saves, so it can be nice to buff just before you start combat if there's a mage who might open with Chaos or whatever. (I've been wanting to "debut" my Luck use in a run before BG2EE comes out, but alas it's looking doubtful. People should warm to it more...)

- Greater Malison looks like an awesome spell on paper - -4 to all enemy saves! I'm honestly confused as to why I don't see this in more Sorcerer spell books.

You just have to decide whether you want the save-or-else spells or not. If you do then consider taking Greater Mal, Glitterdust, Slow, and Chaos (and later maybe Sphere of Chaos). Slow and Chaos in particular are useful for their save modifiers if you go the save-or-else route. The reason not to is just that later in the game the enemies will generally start shrugging them off. Often they'll be immune to the effects even if they fail both their magic-resistance check and their save.

Unfortunately, SI:Ev won't protect against your own evocation spells (at least it doesn't in the installs I've played).

Spell Immunity doesn't seem to protect against the caster's own area spells. SI:Abj doesn't block the sorc's own Dispel Magic; SI:Necro doesn't protect against the sorc's own Skull Traps.

I'm strongly leaning towards taking Sunfire

If you do, take PfFire and cast it on your team. Think how great Sunfire would be then.

Level 6: PfMW for sure, but I tend to see a LOT of variation on sorcerer spell books at this level

With a party, consider True Sight simply so the priests don't have to waste their slots - it costs them Mass Cure, Righteous Magic etc. Like Grond0 says, Improved Haste would also be helpful. Another use for it is to have it on the sorcerer her/himself, so that any walking that's necessary during a Time Stop wastes less of the TS duration (though there are potions too if you play with potions).

[Alesia_BH]

It looks like you are getting some excellent feedback here ExFalso. I hope you'll find it helpful.

Before I comment I'd like to take a moment to share a couple of spell lists- those of my two most recent sorceresses, Alastria and Alicia. Both of these characters were successful. The first, Alastria, solo no reloaded an SCS install from Candlekeep to Suldanesselar despite the fact that I had, at the time, never played SCS and was coming off a multiyear break from BG. The second, Alicia, solo no reloaded a SCS-Ascension Trilogy install up to Melissan and also soloed the Ascension battle on insane. Both characters worked- they were also fun. Nonethless, you'll note that their books are radically different and that they include picks that many would consider bizarre. Am I posting these books to recommend them to you? No: absolutely not. Instead, I'd like to use them to illustrate two important points about spellbooks. First, that there is a wide range of approaches that can work- despite the dreary consistency of the lists you'll find. Second, that context is crucial when evaluating picks- no spell selection should be viewed in isolation.

Alastria, Human transmuting sorceress (spells in no particular order)

Level 1: Blindness, Shield, Chill Touch, Spook, Protection from Evil, 
Level 2: Mirror Image, Blur, Strength, Resist Fear, Web
Level 3: Meteors, Non Detection, Remove Magic, Slow, Vampiric Touch
Level 4: Minor Sequencer, Polymorph Self, Stoneskins, Teleport Field
Level 5: Phantom Blade, Shadow Door, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield
Level 6: Globe of Invulnerability, Improved Haste, Tensor's Transformation, Pro MW
Level 7: Limited Wish, Spell Sequencer, Spell Turning, Sphere of Chaos
Level 8: Power Word: Blind, Protection from Energy, Spell Trigger
Level 9: Shapechange, Time Stop, Imprisonment, Improved Alacrity, Energy Blades

Comments: This is one of the most unusual books that you'll ever see. It was designed for a shapeshifting sorceress who specialized in melee combat. Note the complete lack of ranged damage spells: my character used touch spells and magically created weapons only. 

I don't think I'm being vain when I say that the original transmuter Alastria and the sorceress Alastria who used the above book are to a significant extent responsible for the current popularity of Polymorph Self: the spell was widely considered useless before those characters' had their runs. Alastria was a highly enjoyable character and her success was only possible because I was willing to make some extremely unorthodox picks. Chill Touch? Non-Detection? Phantom Blade? All three of those spells would rank high on a list of worst possible sorcerer spell picks and yet they functioned beautifully in the context of Alastria's strategy. The point here is that if you have a clear sense of what you want to achieve -and a clear sense of how a particular spell will help you achieve it- you should feel free to give it a try. Don't let group think stop you from from building the caster you want to build. 


Alicia, Elven blaster sorceress (spells in order of selection)

Level 1: Blindness, Shield, Chromatic Orb, Magic Missle, Pro Evil
Level 2: Invisibility, Mirror Image, Resist Fear, Melf's Acid Arrow, Blur
Level 3: Skull Trap, Remove Magic, Melf's Minute Meteors, Spell Thrust , Flame Arrow
Level 4: Teleport Field, Stoneskins, Improved Invisbility, Ice Storm, Fire Shield: Blue
Level 5: Sunfire, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield, Lower Resistance, Breach
Level 6: Protection from Magic Weapons, Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Deflection, Death Fog, Contingency
Level 7: Spell Sequencer, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Projected Image, Limited Wish, Power Word: Stun
Level 8: Spell Trigger, Protection from Energy, Horrid Wilting, Power Word: Blind
Level 9: Spell Trap, Chain Contingency, Wish, Power Word: Kill

Comments: Alicia was a far more conventional sorceress, however, her book also contained a number of unusual picks, notably Spell Trap, Power Word: Kill, Power Word: Stun and one of my personal favorites, Limited Wish. Her Insane Ascension solo can be found here, along with links to her no reload challenge run: 

http://social.biowar...3945/1#16428767

Again, it is a good idea to seek advice and be inspired by others picks, but that shouldn't prevent you from making your own choices- from building a character that is truly your own. Ask, look, and listen. But in the end do what makes sense to you (And do it well). 

(Ack. I've run out of time. I'll provide specific commentary on the spells you are considering this afternoon.) 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 19 mars 2014 - 02:47 .

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

Really appreciate the input, everyone. 
Grond0,

Thanks for the opinion on Death Fog vs Death Spell - I'm really looking at the tradeoffs at the moment. PW: Silence and PfME aren't that appealing to me, at least as far as Sorcerer spell picks. PW:Silence in particular I feel gets quickly left in the dust by its big brother PW: Blind, which has far more applications, plus Clerics can also take Silence 15' radius at a fairly low level if you're really looking for a silence effect. PfME looks pretty nice, but I think GoI is a stronger tactical choice for personal protection at least, since it also protects against a host of other nastiness (like my own webs!) That said I'll definitely consider PfME on a secondary mage in a party environment, but I feel like there are too many other compelling options here to take it just to abuse Skull Trap . 

What's the primary tactical use of Invisible stalkers? As I remember, summons can't really see for themselves, so that would limit their scouting utility, unless they're an exception? I mean they're clearly invisible, but I'm wondering how you really use them tactically. (Mordy Swords and Skele Warriors each have pretty blatant "use me for this," I'm curious how Stalkers fit in)

Satyricon,

Thanks for the warning about save-or-else spells late in the game - definitely brought back some harsh memories of my first ever BG2 attempts, (the sheer frustration of UGH THEY KEEP SAVING) but I'm still on-the-fence about Malison. Most direct-damage spells have save components, which means Malison can also boost damage generated from that area - then again, I was looking at some of my higher level spell options and realizing that not that many of them actually require a save (FoD and ADHW are the only 6+ level ones that do, although Sequencers/Triggers with lower-level offensive spells would still benefit.)

Alessia,

Really appreciate your input, especially with looking at how everything fits together tactically. I think I mentioned earlier that I'm considering Polymorph Self as a lvl 4 slot candidate - which I, like many others, was initially exposed to by your Alastria playthough. I'm a bit on the fence about using Jelly form for Wizard battles though, and the Spider form doesn't have natural Web immunity, and since I'm not trying to go with a nearly-pure melee focus it might not be "right" for me - its one of those spells that I really wish there was a 1x/day item for in Chapter 2/3/4 but I'm not sure if it's worth a spell pick. (And yes, I know there's the Cloak of the Sewers, but no 100% magic res on the jelly or Spider form there). Even without polymorph self, I'm seriously thinking about taking Shapechange for late-game fun.

I know both of those Sorcerers were solo runs, so how did you get away with not taking True Sight? Do you think Telefield is still a strong choice in party games? What's the rationale behind Limited Wish? I've never used it outside of using the scroll to get the "gong" quest.

Everyone,

I'm fairly confident with my Level 1/2/3 picks now.
Level 1: Blindness, Magic Missile, Shield, Identify, Chromatic Orb
Level 2: Mirror Image, Melf's Acid Arrow, Web, Blur, Resist Fear
Level 3: Melf's Minute Meteors, Skull Trap, Remove Magic, 2 left (Flame Arrow / Haste / Slow)

Some commentary:

Level 3: Slow and Haste are basically two sides of the same coin, and I'm inclined to take one of them as my 4th spell. Flame Arrow is basically the last pure single-target direct-damage spell, but I already have two damage-producing spells here and should add utility with the 4th pick. I don't get the 5th pick until level 22, which is a ways off. I'm guessing people tend towards Haste rather than Slow here since it can be precast and used on summons. 

Level 4: Still giving me the most trouble. Farsight, Greater Malison, Telefield, PS, the Fire Shields- all continue to be potential options for the 3rd/4th/5th slots on Level 4. I'm leaning towards the first 3 at the moment, but looking for some opinions on Telefield in party play. Again, I'm keeping in mind I don't get the 5th pick until level 23. 

Level 5: Looking more resolved. Sunfire and Spell Immunity are easy, strong early picks, so it really comes down to picking from the last 4 - Lower Resistance, Breach, Animate Dead, and Spell Shield. I'm currently leaning towards taking Breach 3rd and either Animate Dead or Lower Resistance 4th. 

Level 6: Again, I'm spoiled for choices. Still thinking here. PfMW still the only 100% lock. 

I've realised that for levels 6-9, there are a few fairly crucial roles I probably should have at least one spell filling.

# Spell Protection: Globe of Invulnerability (lvl 6), Spell Deflection (level 6), Spell Turning (lvl 7), Spell Trap (lvl 9) are the options. Note that Globe is in an entirely different vein than the others on this list - the others are all effectively equivalent in function if not in power, but GoI provides immunity to your OWN spells, which is fundamentally different tactically. Also worth noting that GoI can be provided by the Staff of Power (potentially obtainable in Mage stronghold questline) while Spell Trap can be obtained via Staff of the Magi.

# Spell Protection Remover: True Sight (lvl 6), Pierce Magic (lvl 6), RRoR (lvl7), Pierce Shield (lvl8), Spellstrike (lvl 9) are the options. True Sight is functionally VERY different than the other 4, since it allows you to target invisible mages, whereas the others drain mage's spell protections once you can actually target them. I know there are other ways to access True Sight (Keldorn, Clerics), and there's a Wand of Spell Striking in Watcher's Keep, but I'll feel really awkward without at least one protection remover.

# Elemental Protection: Protection from the Elements (lvl7) and Protection from Energy (lvl8) are the options.

Figure I might as well put down some of the OTHER high-level spells I'm taking a look at that don't fit into the roles I just listed above.

Level 7: Mordy Sword, Project Image, Finger of Death, Sequencer
Level 8: ADHW, PW: Blind, Spell Trigger
Level 9: Timestop, CC, Shapechange (not that shapechange fits with everything else particularly well, but it would open up a new dimension to the character that could allow for some fun.)

Modifié par ExFalsoQuodlibet, 12 octobre 2013 - 06:19 .

[Alesia_BH]

ExFalsoQuodlibet wrote...
I think I mentioned earlier that I'm considering Polymorph Self as a lvl 4 slot candidate - which I, like many others, was initially exposed to by your Alastria playthough.

As you probably noted, I skipped Polymorph Self in Alicia's book. I have yet to take it with a conventional sorceress and I doubt I ever will. There are too many high value spells at four.

It sounds to me like you appreciate the issues. I'm confident you'll make the choice that suits you.

I know both of those Sorcerers were solo runs, so how did you get away with not taking True Sight?

Scrolls- scrolls and Remove Magic.

True Sight and Oracle scrolls are plentiful; Remove alone will often suffice.

Do you think Telefield is still a strong choice in party games?

It depends on the party. My original sorceress, Alanis (who successfully no reloaded the trilogy with tactical mods and also soloed the Ascension battle on insane) partied with Imoen, Aerie, Nalia, and an archer named Alia. With three arcane casters and an archer alongside her, Teleport Field was a splendid pick. With a conventional party it wouldn't have been as helpful.

(I'll note that there is excellent synergy between Teleport Field and blindness spells. Alanis and her friends also made heavy use of Glitterdust and later PW:B.) 
 

What's the rationale behind Limited Wish? I've never used it outside of using the scroll to get the "gong" quest.

It fits into a Chain Contingency and can be used to cast Time Stop (albeit once). In a no reload game that can be a nice safety valve. Chain Contingency and Shapechange are available as one time wishes as well.

As for repeated wishes there are the bunnies of course, but also "I wish to make my party invulnerable" (MGOI on the entire party, great for use of low level AoE spells), "I wish to be protected from undead" (mass negative plane protection), and "I wish for spells that I have cast to be restored so that i might cast them again (restores four spells distributed across L1-L4).

Limited Wish was mostly a style pick, however. If Polymorph Self was Alastria's signature spell, Limited Wish was Alanis's. I had Alicia take it sort of as an homage to Alanis.

(Btw. Now would be a good time to note that style is an important consideration when i select spells. I like to give all my sorceresses a signature spell or combination of spells. It's fun and, importantly, it gives a distinctive character to each of my playthroughs.) 

I'm fairly confident with my Level 1/2/3 picks now.
Level 1: Blindness, Magic Missile, Shield, Identify, Chromatic Orb
Level 2: Mirror Image, Melf's Acid Arrow, Web, Blur, Resist Fear
Level 3: Melf's Minute Meteors, Skull Trap, Remove Magic, 2 left (Flame Arrow / Haste / Slow)

Makes sense.

I'm guessing people tend towards Haste rather than Slow here since it can be precast and used on summons.

That and the fact that Slow offers a save.

I'm leaning towards the first 3 at the moment, but looking for some opinions on Telefield in party play.

As mentioned earlier, it depends on the party. If you intend to gather a crew of arcane casters and range fighters, it's an excellent choice.  

Teleport Field is a bit like Polymorph Self: both spells can be powerful if you build your strategy around them, but if you try to work them into a conventional game plan, it can just get awkward. 

Level 5: Looking more resolved. Sunfire and Spell Immunity are easy, strong early picks, so it really comes down to picking from the last 4 - Lower Resistance, Breach, Animate Dead, and Spell Shield. I'm currently leaning towards taking Breach 3rd and either Animate Dead or Lower Resistance 4th.

I'm probably the biggest Abjuration spell junky in the realms, and I'm a big fan of Spell Shield in particular. That said, I regard Spell Shield as skippable in vanilla party play: in vanilla, it's helpful against beholders but little else.

If you intend to forgo using SI:D + II, I'd give Spell Shield a closer look, however.  

Level 6: Again, I'm spoiled for choices. Still thinking here. PfMW still the only 100% lock.

There are a lot of directions you can go in at 6 (and above for that matter). Based on you discussion of "crucial spell roles," it seems to me that you understand the issues well enough to make informed choices. Best of luck! And have fun!

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 13 octobre 2013 - 03:53 .

[Satyricon331]

I'm still on-the-fence about Malison. Most direct-damage spells have
save components, which means Malison can also boost damage generated
from that area

2 or 3 years ago, I worked out the algebra on that.  (BG2 is great for providing these little hidden math puzzles.)  It's not generally worth it to take GM to enhance a solo sorc's damage spells (if the party has other mages, just let them take GM so later in the game you can take GM off your spell slots - though, come to think of it, it might be worth it if you have no mages and want to buff a bunch of cleric/druid spells).  The write-up's still in my backups so I can post it if anyone's curious.

Speaking of curiosity, what's the rationale for taking Sunfire without PfFire to protect the other party members?  The cleric versions don't provide 100% protection, and stacking the cleric ones can eat up their spell slots the more party members you protect.  Is the sorc going to be on the front lines away from the other party members?  Or are potions the key here?

You're definitely with the majority on Web.  Best of luck, even without Luck.

[Grond0]

ExFalsoQuodlibet wrote...
What's the primary tactical use of Invisible stalkers? As I remember, summons can't really see for themselves, so that would limit their scouting utility, unless they're an exception? I mean they're clearly invisible, but I'm wondering how you really use them tactically. (Mordy Swords and Skele Warriors each have pretty blatant "use me for this," I'm curious how Stalkers fit in)

Summons can see for themselves, they just don't expand the party's visual area.  If you send a stalker forward to the edge of your visual range and they suddenly start moving themselves they have seen an enemy.  The point at which they move tells you how far away the enemy is.  So effectively you can double your visual range, using an invisible scout.

That's useful to me, but in the context that I never use AI, know the game well and normally play solo (where I typically micro-manage positioning).  If you don't want to exercise detailed control of your summons then the invisible scouting would obviously be of rather less use.

Edit: should also have said that the 9 hour duration is a significant attraction for invisible stalkers - you can summon them, rest to get spells back and then go into combat ... 

Modifié par Grond0, 13 octobre 2013 - 05:36 .

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

Satyricon,

My main problem with Luck was the annoyingly short duration, as you noted. While it might be worth it for certain specific situations - in conjunction with spell casting time reduction and IA, like you mentioned - the three-round duration makes it it essentially useless in the vast majority of situations. Luck is an incredibly powerful effect - arguably one of the single most powerful effects in the game - but I'd rather add utility in other ways than take another buff at level 2, especially one with such limitations on usage.

[wazkabaz]

Alesia_BH wrote...

It looks like you are getting some excellent feedback here ExFalso. I hope you'll find it helpful.

Before I comment I'd like to take a moment to share a couple of spell lists- those of my two most recent sorceresses, Alastria and Alicia. Both of these characters were successful. The first, Alastria, solo no reloaded an SCS install from Candlekeep to Suldanesselar despite the fact that I had, at the time, never played SCS and was coming off a multiyear break from BG. The second, Alicia, solo no reloaded a SCS-Ascension Trilogy install up to Melissan and also soloed the Ascension battle on insane. Both characters worked- they were also fun. Nonethless, you'll note that their books are radically different and that they include picks that many would consider bizarre. Am I posting these books to recommend them to you? No: absolutely not. Instead, I'd like to use them to illustrate two important points about spellbooks. First, that there is a wide range of approaches that can work- despite the dreary consistency of the lists you'll find. Second, that context is crucial when evaluating picks- no spell selection should be viewed in isolation.

Alastria, Human transmuting sorceress (spells in no particular order)

Level 1: Blindness, Shield, Chill Touch, Spook, Protection from Evil, 
Level 2: Mirror Image, Blur, Strength, Resist Fear, Web
Level 3: Meteors, Non Detection, Remove Magic, Slow, Vampiric Touch
Level 4: Minor Sequencer, Polymorph Self, Stoneskins, Teleport Field
Level 5: Phantom Blade, Shadow Door, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield
Level 6: Globe of Invulnerability, Improved Haste, Tensor's Transformation, Pro MW
Level 7: Limited Wish, Spell Sequencer, Spell Turning, Sphere of Chaos
Level 8: Power Word: Blind, Protection from Energy, Spell Trigger
Level 9: Shapechange, Time Stop, Imprisonment, Improved Alacrity, Energy Blades

Comments: This is one of the most unusual books that you'll ever see. It was designed for a shapeshifting sorceress who specialized in melee combat. Note the complete lack of ranged damage spells: my character used touch spells and magically created weapons only. 

Hello all , this is my first post so I'm not sure if I am quoting right. But here it goes anyway. 
I saw this post about Alastria the melee sorcereress and this looks like an awsome build! I am considering attempting to make a melee sorc. build and I am wondering the about the effectiveness of non- detection at level 3. Is that just a low level pick, because don't most mages simply use true sight, which non-detect offers no protection. Also, I am wondering if you have used the lvl 9 black blade of disaster in melee combat, and could comment on the effectivnessof that spell  compared to shapeshifting. 

[Alesia_BH]

wazkabaz wrote...
Hello all , this is my first post so I'm not sure if I am quoting right. But here it goes anyway. 
I saw this post about Alastria the melee sorcereress and this looks like an awsome build!

Greetings and well met Wazkabaz.

The melee sorceress approach can be enjoyable. It's a boutique build -and it takes time and study to get it right- but it can be fun and surprisingly effective. Best of luck if you give it a try!

Btw. If you do take this approach, you may find Alastria's old journals helpful. You can find them buried deep in the no reload challenge thread. A few caveats first though: 1) that had been my first run in a number of years, a few things may have been off, 2) her journals had been written in a deliberately annoying voice inspired by Alicia Silverstone's character in Clueless (1996)- consider yourself warned.

Btw II. Here's a post from the middle of her run. I selected this one because it happens to have an active video link lower down the page. 

http://social.biowar...ndex/3120942/19

I am considering attempting to make a melee sorc. build and I am wondering the about the effectiveness of non- detection at level 3

Non-detection worked in the context of Alastria's NR run, however, it had a very, very narrow range of applicability. For the vast majority of players in the majority of installs I'd recommend against selecting it.

In my install Improved Invisibility cast via the Ring of Air Control was flagged as non-illusionary and as a consequence could be protected from divination magics via non-detection. Alastria primarily relied on SI:D + II to thwart spell targetting, however, there were times when that combo would run out while she was shapeshifted and could not refresh promptly. Pairing non-detection with Ring of Air Control Improved Invisibility provided a means of extending the length of time during which she was untargettable, minimally allowing her to safely flipback and rebuff. The Cloak of Non-Detection was her preferred means of achieving that end since its effect is not dispellable via higher level divination magics such as True Sight, but the spell was situationally useful early in the adventure, facing low level mages. Bear in mind that players with more recent versions of G3 in which RoAC II is not flagged as non-illusionary should not find the cloak or the spell helpful in analagous situations. Further bear in mind that I personally would allocate that L3 differently were I to run an Alastria like character again even in the same install. The upshoot of this is I'd recommend against it in 99.9999999% of cases. 

Also, I am wondering if you have used the lvl 9 black blade of disaster in melee combat, and could comment on the effectivnessof that spell  compared to shapeshifting. 

I love Black Blades of Disaster- especially with thieves. BBoDs are oustanding backstabbing weapons. Iron Golem fists can do more damage (as demonstrated below by my experimental assasin->cleric, Alo)


but in my experience Black Blades of Disaster provide the best game useable thwacks. You can see some shots of my bounty hunter, Alesia, using BBoDs to good effect in the final Ascension fight here.

http://social.biowar...ndex/3120942/66

For melee sorcerers, the problem with selecting BBoD is that it is a level 9 spell and consequently does not fit into a Chain. That's an issue because it means that a BBoD cast from book can not be placed in the hands of a shapeshift form and therefore can not be wielded at high APR. A sorcerer running Shapeshift: Mindflayer under Improved Haste can reach 8 APR. A sorcerer wielding a BBoD cast from book would be stuck at 2. BBoD scrolls are nice since they'll allow you to wield the blade at 8APR (assuming they are read after you have shapeshifted) but I would not be inclined to put the spell in my book.

In any event, best of luck once again!

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 23 octobre 2013 - 08:01 .