117 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I can speak from experience here because that is my preferred morality path in ME1 & 2, because the alternative is a joke until ME3 thankfully made it more of a neutral and legitimate option. Anyhow, I think back to the so-called "Paragon" actions and dialogue of the previous games, and while many of those them promote noble ideals/intentions, it's all too often wrapped up in the words/actions of a tyrant: someone who slams others at the mere mention of different opinions, and enforces their agenda though intimidation or even outright brutality.

• If you're taking a stand against Gavin Archer, what message are you sending when you then grant the player an interrupt to pistol-whip the man in defense of that decision -- that it's okay to act like a thug yourself if the morals are on *your* side?
• How about telling everyone you recruit in ME2 that they must put differences aside in the name of mutual cooperation, yet you routinely bash Cerberus and TIM (Paragon dialogue options) at the same time -- do as I say, not as I do? What makes Shepard's hate for Cerberus more justified than, say, Jacob's distrust of Thane?
• Making Zaeed cooperative by sticking a gun to his head as "Paragon." It gets worse when paragon persuation dialogue is called "Charm." There's nothing charming about sticking a gun to someone's face. If anything, it's way more fitting of what a Renegade is said to do: Intimidate.
• ... as another example of ^that: dealing with Harrot's control over Kenn's store on Omega. The Paragon option is to threaten him with injury. Yep, what a charmer, that Paragon.
• Let's not forget the Paragon ending of ME2 and the eerily-similar nature of the Refuse speech as of EC. Let's face it, Shepard has no (good) plan to stop the Reapers, so why is he/she telling TIM from their high-horse that the Reapers will be stopped "their way" - ? Is it not enough to agree to disagree? Paragon Shepard comes off like he won't even consider it, and wants to dismember TIM for ever even making a suggestion.

... these are further re-inforced by the general "feel good" nature of the Paragon path. You're made to feel good about: freeing David, undermining Cerberus, saving the refinery works, helping Kenn, choosing to destroy the 'base... and it's mostly ignored that Shepard was rather prickish about all these things. At least with the Renegade path, acts of intimidation and brutality are tempered by not leading to the most happy and feel-good outcomes.


tl;dr: well-intentioned as the Paragon morality path in ME may be, it is spoiled by promoting those ideals through unsavory methods of intimidation and even violence, then ignoring those actions in favor of making you feel good on them.

I really think Bioware's writing and developing teams need to be careful with things like this going forward -- not only what values they promote, but how they promote them. There's a fine line between an idealist and an ideologue.

[Deverz]

You bring up some interesting points.

I saw the Gavin Archer interrupt not as acting as a thug, but more like pacifying the guy who's pointing a gun at you by a non-lethal takedown.

What makes Shepard's distrust of Cerberus more valid than that of Jacob's to Thane is that Cerberus has a very bad track record, Thane is an unknown and Jacob is deeming him untrustworthy simply on the basis of him being an assassin.

I don't know, I might be wrong. I agree with you on the rest though.

[jtav]

I've been waiting for someone to make a thread like this. Shep judges but he rarely forgives. He treats a genuinely reformed Archer like crap. It feels like he has no empathy and not much capacity for self-reflection.He does good but doesn't feel like a good person.

[Iakus]

I play majorly paragon Shepards, and after seeing what Gavin did to his brother, I wish I could pistol-whip him twice.

And again when you meet him in ME3.

[Arcian]

jtav wrote...

I've been waiting for someone to make a thread like this. Shep judges but he rarely forgives. He treats a genuinely reformed Archer like crap. It feels like he has no empathy and not much capacity for self-reflection.He does good but doesn't feel like a good person.

Yes but this is writing BS. If you blame Shepard for what's coming out of his/her mouth, you're validating the writer's blunders.

[Kataphrut94]

The hate for Cerberus is definitely more justified than Jacob's hate for Thane. While Jacob is judging Thane sight-unseen purely for being an assassin, Shepard has seen (and possibly been party to) enough of Cerberus' hare-brained schemes to form a pretty accurate view of them.

Most of these are cases of paying evil unto evil, and aren't exactly 'tyrannical'. They certainly pale in comparison to what Renegade Shepard gets up to.

[cap and gown]

iakus wrote...

I play majorly paragon Shepards, and after seeing what Gavin did to his brother, I wish I could pistol-whip him twice.

And again when you meet him in ME3.

You can get him to kill himself.

At any rate, I'm just a little surprised the OP didn't mention the looters on Omega. Man I hate talking to those guys, but I don't want to miss out on the morality points. What is Shepard doing, after all, if not looting from the dead? Hypocricy, much?

[essarr71]

1) Shep pistol-whips after getting shot at. It's not the paragon response. It's the response to Archer's reaction to Shep's decision. Shep could have just killed Gavin, yet doesn't. This makes Shep a thug?

2) Yet Shep DOES cooperate with TIM. Further, Shep says during the Jack/Miranda confrontation that they don't care what they do to each other after the mission. It's quite clear Shep's concern is only on success. The times you can be confrontational with TIM is when the success is put under pressure (ex: being set up).

3) Watch the scene again.. it starts with Shep pointing the gun at Zaeed and ends with Shep holding the grip toward Zaeed. It's meant to put emphasis on the idea that they could work together or die. Also, since when has it been called Charm actions after ME1?

4) Threatening Harrot as opposed to telling him to run Ken out of business IS paragon from the perspective that you're there to help the Quarian.

5) This doesn't make Shep a tyrant. Potentially an idiot, sure, but it's hardly contradictory.

[Jorji Costava]

This is an interesting topic. I'd suggest that the reason why Paragon Shep seems so schizophrenic is because of the actions Shepard is forced into, regardless of whether he or she is paragon or renegade. I just don't think Paragon Shepard would agree to working with Cerberus at all, so given that you have no choice in the matter, Paragon Shepard is bound to engage in "Do as I say, not as I do" behaviors.

As pointed out in the OP, Jacob's reaction to Thane is another good example. Again, I think the issue is that Paragon Shepard is pretty unlikely to recruit a professional assassin. A soldier who's been trained in many of the skills an assassin would use, sure, but not an actual person who's carried out political assassinations for money. Jacob's reaction is exactly the reaction Paragon Shepard should have.

[Iakus]

cap and gown wrote...

iakus wrote...

I play majorly paragon Shepards, and after seeing what Gavin did to his brother, I wish I could pistol-whip him twice.

And again when you meet him in ME3.

You can get him to kill himself.

At any rate, I'm just a little surprised the OP didn't mention the looters on Omega. Man I hate talking to those guys, but I don't want to miss out on the morality points. What is Shepard doing, after all, if not looting from the dead? Hypocricy, much?

Death means his suffering ends.

ALso, you realize you don't have to take the money, right? 

[KaiserShep]

If it was possible, I would've had Shepard simply shoot Archer after he fired on him/her. Heck, people get shot for less by the NYPD.

[ThinkSharp]

Your examples bring up good points, but they're the exceptions to the rule. I think your moral expectations of a Paragon Shepard are too high. Look at it this way: it's not that a Paragon Shepard always does the perfectly right and good thing in every situation--we know that's not true--but that noble idealism is what motivates a Paragon Shep's actions. Obviously that has its own extremes too and frankly it's good that even a paragon sometimes loses his ****. It's called being human.

Is Renegade Shep always called out for his aggressive and violent choices? They get the job done, too. And, honestly, Renegade Shep gets away with it too. Sure they aren't feel-good in the same way "peace for everyone" is, but that doesn't mean they don't still feel good. Hell, I mean don't tell me there's not some pleasure in giving someone what they've got coming (and sometimes more) while still getting what you want?

Pure Paragon and Pure Renegade Shepard may not end up having a universe with the same outcomes, but they're still both the universe-saving heroes at the end of the day.

[DeinonSlayer]

Let's not forget lying to the arms dealer in ME2 on Illium (Conrad Verner's side-quest). At least rene!shep is direct about it, instead of manipulative.

That's why I say, screw paragon and renegade. Ignore it. Do what you think is right, not what the dialogue wheel tells you you should think is right.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 12 octobre 2013 - 03:24 .

[dreamgazer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

That's why I say, screw paragon and renegade. Ignore it. Do what you think is right, not what the dialogue wheel tells you you should think is right.

You mean ... actually roleplay? A shocking concept! 

[Xilizhra]

If you're taking a stand against Gavin Archer, what message are you sending when you then grant the player an interrupt to pistol-whip the man in defense of that decision -- that it's okay to act like a thug yourself if the morals are on *your* side?

IIRC, he had a gun on you.

How about telling everyone you recruit in ME2 that they must put differences aside in the name of mutual cooperation, yet you routinely bash Cerberus and TIM (Paragon dialogue options) at the same time -- do as I say, not as I do? What makes Shepard's hate for Cerberus more justified than, say, Jacob's distrust of Thane?

It's not as routine as you're remembering it; it only shows up at the very beginning of the game and doesn't come up as much in the rest of the story. Additionally, TIM isn't part of the crew and doesn't need as much cohesion with the squad.

Making Zaeed cooperative by sticking a gun to his head as "Paragon." It gets worse when paragon persuation dialogue is called "Charm." There's nothing charming about sticking a gun to someone's face. If anything, it's way more fitting of what a Renegade is said to do: Intimidate.

Charm and Intimidate stopped being descriptors in ME2. In any case, it's a point of emphasis he understands more easily. It's ultimately for his own good, given that it leads to greater psychological stability.

... as another example of ^that: dealing with Harrot's control over Kenn's store on Omega. The Paragon option is to threaten him with injury. Yep, what a charmer, that Paragon.

Well, he's a criminal tyrant himself.

Let's not forget the Paragon ending of ME2 and the eerily-similar nature of the Refuse speech as of EC. Let's face it, Shepard has no (good) plan to stop the Reapers, so why is he/she telling TIM from their high-horse that the Reapers will be stopped "their way" - ? Is it not enough to agree to disagree? Paragon Shepard comes off like he won't even consider it, and wants to dismember TIM for ever even making a suggestion.

Because Shepard considers Cerberus to be a potential future threat if they're given that much power at once... which was half right; they're a future threat either way.

I've been waiting for someone to make a thread like this. Shep judges but he rarely forgives. He treats a genuinely reformed Archer like crap. It feels like he has no empathy and not much capacity for self-reflection.He does good but doesn't feel like a good person.

I don't know. I've seen Shepard forgive a fair few times. Gavin Archer is probably the worst person Shepard hasn't killed, or among them, and he scraped up against that line in ME2. I wish the dialogue had been handled a bit better, but one can say that about many things in ME3. Also, it has nothing to do with Paragon or Renegade anyway.

Let's not forget lying to the arms dealer in ME2 on Illium (Conrad Verner's side-quest). At least rene!shep is direct about it, instead of manipulative.

And Paragon Shepard actually gets a criminal arrested, so...

That's why I say, screw paragon and renegade. Ignore it. Do what you think is right, not what the dialogue wheel tells you you should think is right.

Of course, the dialogue wheel is almost always right.

[DeinonSlayer]

Then there was the classic:

*Cures the Genophage in violation of every Council directive EVER*
...followed by...
*Chews out Admiral Raan for violating the Treaty of Farixen, which doesn't apply to the Quarians to begin with*

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course, the dialogue wheel is almost always right.

Great to see that independent thinking at work, Xil.

[dreamgazer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Of course, the dialogue wheel is almost always right.

The dialogue wheel frequently allows Shepard the opportunity to achieve the same results in big situations through both red and blue persuasion options.  What exactly do you mean by "almost always right"?

[Xilizhra]

Then there was the classic:

*Cures the Genophage in violation of every Council directive EVER*
...followed by...
*Chews out Admiral Raan for violating the Treaty of Farixen, which doesn't apply to the Quarians to begin with*

The former had an actual good reason behind it, in addition to not recklessly endangering civilians by virtue of its mere existence, as strapping huge guns and nothing else onto liveships did.

Great to see that independent thinking at work, Xil.

It's hardly my fault that the Paragon system matches what I believe anyway.

[spirosz]

The jokes I could make.

[spirosz]

Arcian wrote...

jtav wrote...

I've been waiting for someone to make a thread like this. Shep judges but he rarely forgives. He treats a genuinely reformed Archer like crap. It feels like he has no empathy and not much capacity for self-reflection.He does good but doesn't feel like a good person.

Yes but this is writing BS. If you blame Shepard for what's coming out of his/her mouth, you're validating the writer's blunders.

That is true to an extent.  

[Seboist]

Making Zaeed cooperative by sticking a gun to his head as "Paragon." It gets worse when paragon persuation dialogue is called "Charm." There's nothing charming about sticking a gun to someone's face. If anything, it's way more fitting of what a Renegade is said to do: Intimidate.

It's not simply a matter of pointing a gun to his face, Paragon Shepard actually makes him relive what traumatized him all these years(having it shoved in his face while held down).

Nice of the writers to have Paragon Shepard engage in the same kind of behavior as Nyarlathotep from Persona 2, LOL.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you're taking a stand against Gavin Archer, what message are you sending when you then grant the player an interrupt to pistol-whip the man in defense of that decision -- that it's okay to act like a thug yourself if the morals are on *your* side?

IIRC, he had a gun on you.

Ignore the interrupt: Archer backs down once Shepard pulls out his own gun in response.

I think it's understood that Archer's whimpy Shuriken (or Predator) was not going to do much to a fully-armored and shielded Shepard. If you really did fear for your life, you would shoot or try to disarm the guy, not backhand him (lol).

How about telling everyone you recruit in ME2 that they must put differences aside in the name of mutual cooperation, yet you routinely bash Cerberus and TIM (Paragon dialogue options) at the same time -- do as I say, not as I do? What makes Shepard's hate for Cerberus more justified than, say, Jacob's distrust of Thane?

It's not as routine as you're remembering it; it only shows up at the very beginning of the game and doesn't come up as much in the rest of the story. Additionally, TIM isn't part of the crew and doesn't need as much cohesion with the squad.

It's there in just about every squadmate's debriefing.

So Shep is literally like "Hey, yeah so our employers are pretty much all terrible human beings... but you, keep your opinions of others at the door because we need to work together!"

Making Zaeed cooperative by sticking a gun to his head as "Paragon." It gets worse when paragon persuation dialogue is called "Charm." There's nothing charming about sticking a gun to someone's face. If anything, it's way more fitting of what a Renegade is said to do: Intimidate.

Charm and Intimidate stopped being descriptors in ME2. In any case, it's a point of emphasis he understands more easily. It's ultimately for his own good, given that it leads to greater psychological stability.

Sooo you'll admit it was not a "charming" solution but a decidedly renegade-natured one?

... as another example of ^that: dealing with Harrot's control over Kenn's store on Omega. The Paragon option is to threaten him with injury. Yep, what a charmer, that Paragon.

Well, he's a criminal tyrant himself.

And ultimately, "might makes right," which Shepard holds over the powerless elcor cigar smoker.

... but that's kind of the problem I'm having here. It's good to stand for something, but Para!Shep seems to contradict the things he stands for through the very means he often uses to reach those desired ends. I get that sometimes there are truly no other, better options, but in the list of "Paragon" options/dialogue I listed above, I don't think that can be argued.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 12 octobre 2013 - 04:38 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

While the renegade choice of NOT putting out the refinery fire makes a hell of a lot more sense from a role playing aspect.... what the hell does an adept Shepard know about putting out refinery fires anyway? Let's go kill Vido.... it is considered the "evil" choice, but it's so much better watching Zaeed do that unflinching walk.

In before David says "That's just stupid."

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 octobre 2013 - 04:39 .

[Xilizhra]

Ignore the interrupt: Archer backs down once Shepard pulls out his own gun in response.

I think it's understood that Archer's whimpy Shuriken (or Predator) was not going to do much to a fully-armored and shielded Shepard. If you really did fear for your life, you would shoot or try to disarm the guy, not backhand him (lol).

Then chalk it up to at the moment being morally outraged.

It's there in just about every squadmate's debriefing.

So Shep is literally like "Hey, yeah so our employers are pretty much all terrible human beings... but you, keep your opinions of others at the door because we need to work together!"

Well, both of those are true.

Sooo you'll admit it was not a "charming" solution but a decidedly renegade-natured one?

The charm/intimidate distinction is no more. That persuasion option is angry, but with a Paragon sentiment behind it.

And ultimately, "might makes right," which Shepard holds over the powerless elcor cigar smoker.

... but that's kind of the problem I'm having here. It's good to stand for something, but Para!Shep seems to contradict the things he stands for through the very means he often uses to reach those desired ends. I get that sometimes there are truly no other, better options, but in the list of "Paragon" options/dialogue I listed above, I don't think that can be argued.

No one respects any other law on Omega, so why would Shepard be forced to do something ineffectively differently? Although it's not like I ever talk to Harrot anyway, I just pay for Kenn's departure.
And I see no philosophical contradictions, just one or two flashes of anger.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 In the interest of time, this is my final word of the night...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

The hate for Cerberus is definitely more justified than Jacob's hate for Thane. While Jacob is judging Thane sight-unseen purely for being an assassin, Shepard has seen (and possibly been party to) enough of Cerberus' hare-brained schemes to form a pretty accurate view of them.

Purely being an assassin says A LOT about a guy. It's a job you cannot hold without being merciless, or selfish.

At least Cerberus can claim to have the interests of others in mind and perhaps justify the costs later.

Most of these are cases of paying evil unto evil, and aren't exactly 'tyrannical'. They certainly pale in comparison to what Renegade Shepard gets up to.

Unprofessional, IMO. It's easy to hate and be ruthless to the perceived "bad guys."

The true test of balls is to look those people in the eye, and show restraint, if you ask me.

That clearly was not the idea behind the Renegade path. Sadly, the Paragon isn't always it, either. 

essarr71 wrote...

1) Shep pistol-whips after getting shot at. It's not the paragon response. It's the response to Archer's reaction to Shep's decision. Shep could have just killed Gavin, yet doesn't. This makes Shep a thug?

It's a paragon-interrupt on the screen, why should it be exempt from being called "paragon."

Killing him would have been the right response if you genuinely fear for your life. The fact Shepard doesn't makes implies that he/she knows Dr. Archer is not a threat to him. I mean, when is pistol-whipping ever the best course of action?

And lastly, YES, pistol-whipping is for thugs. It was provably unnecessary violence to do it in that moment.

2) Yet Shep DOES cooperate with TIM. Further, Shep says during the Jack/Miranda confrontation that they don't care what they do to each other after the mission. It's quite clear Shep's concern is only on success. The times you can be confrontational with TIM is when the success is put under pressure (ex: being set up).

That's just as bad.

3) Watch the scene again.. it starts with Shep pointing the gun at Zaeed and ends with Shep holding the grip toward Zaeed. It's meant to put emphasis on the idea that they could work together or die.

That's stupid. Who the hell holds a gun that way? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] ... more likely, it's just a bug. Like the invisible rock.

Also, since when has it been called Charm actions after ME1?

I'm fairly certain it's on the ME2 loading screens, if not other material (guide books).

4) Threatening Harrot as opposed to telling him to run Ken out of business IS paragon from the perspective that you're there to help the Quarian.

That side-quest really doesn't make sense anyway. He needs 1000 creds to get off Omega, and says every credit spent in purchasing his goods will help him get off the planet... and you can spend well over 1000 but he still doesn't have enough for some reason -- WTF. And, what, did Harrot buy him out for less than the 1000 he needed?

I guess it's just turtles all the way down.

Idiotic turtles.

5) This doesn't make Shep a tyrant. Potentially an idiot, sure, but it's hardly contradictory.

Tyranny kind of starts with identifying dissidents as their enemies. Again, not enough to just agree to disagree?