73 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

It has nothing to do with what materials an intelligent entity is made of.

Lock two self-interested beings in a room together and they will eventually find something to fight about.

I find this idea that synthetics and organics can get along laughable. Organics can't even get along with each other, there's no reason to believe any differently about intelligent machines.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:54 .

[JudgeQwerty]

Tali has a long rant if you discuss it with her. I suspect they villify the Geth because the alternative is admitting they put the galaxy in danger and THEN the flotilla fleet would even more unpopular.



However, its mentioned that artificial intelligence was already banned before the Geth. Anyone know why?

[sirisaacx]

@Lucid: Lets be fair though - If you discovered a sentient race living in some remote corner of earth - primitive, but capable of advancing beyond you in population and technology in 50 years, would you wipe them out? I certainly would. It's human [quarian] nature. They wrote off the geth as incapable of reasoning to justify their genocide, but I feel almost every organic would have done the same.

Edit: @Marsh: and kill each other over 

Modifié par sirisaacx, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:52 .

[LucidStrike]

marshalleck wrote...

It has nothing to do with what materials an intelligent entity is made of.

Lock two self-interested beings in a room together and they will eventually find something to fight about.

...Because we don't agree on everything...we should destroy one another...? *inches away slowly*

[RyuKazuha]

It's just the same reason Terra Firma has to hate Aliens. They are different, it's at last, just a move of xenophobia.

[LucidStrike]

sirisaacx wrote...

@Lucid: Lets be fair though - If you discovered a sentient race living in some remote corner of earth - primitive, but capable of advancing beyond you in population and technology in 50 years, would you wipe them out? I certainly would. It's human [quarian] nature. They wrote off the geth as incapable of reasoning to justify their genocide, but I feel almost every organic would have done the same.

Edit: @Marsh: and kill each other over 

Don't assume everyone's as egocentric as that. The only static thing about human nature is dynamicism, change. Don't try rigidly defining it as this or that. I'm probably very diffeent from what you call human nature. No, I wouldn't.

[sirisaacx]

Personally, I'd love to see the Mass Effect story go in that direction. The premise is already set up for it, and it would make for a pretty deep game, exploring the elements that define being alive. I mean Shep is already as much machine than man.

[marshalleck]

LucidStrike wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It has nothing to do with what materials an intelligent entity is made of.

Lock two self-interested beings in a room together and they will eventually find something to fight about.

...Because we don't agree on everything...we should destroy one another...? *inches away slowly*

It happens all the time. Wring your hands over it and deny reality all you want, it won't change anything.

When people (read: organics) can't even coexist with each other peacefully, why do you think machines would be treated any differently?

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:57 .

[Delta426]

sirisaacx wrote...

@Lucid: Lets be fair though - If you discovered a sentient race living in some remote corner of earth - primitive, but capable of advancing beyond you in population and technology in 50 years, would you wipe them out? I certainly would. It's human [quarian] nature. They wrote off the geth as incapable of reasoning to justify their genocide, but I feel almost every organic would have done the same.

Edit: @Marsh: and kill each other over 

Carefull man... Although your argument is quite true, and has historic evidence, it might end poorly. There was a very good discussion on "first contact genocide" in the previous forums. As soon a some one mentioned human nature, some God boy showed up spouting creationism and space demons and the thread got locked. I would hate to see that here.

[Schneidend]

marshalleck wrote...

It happens all the time. Wring your hands over it and deny reality all you want, it won't change anything.

When people (read: organics) can't even coexist with each other peacefully, why do you think machines would be treated any differently?

Pretty much this. The simple fact that the A.I. are machines, and thus different from them, would be enough for most people, including those in charge of launching the nukes.

[Taiko Roshi]

LucidStrike wrote...

I'll be pissed if the story is written so the Geth lose. I want a just, peaceful resolution to this conflict.

A just and peaceful resolution would be the annihilation of the Geth. Or, at the bear minimum a total overhaul of their programming so that they have a memory wipe and once again become subservient. I thought it was fairly clear in ME 1 that at this stage of the conflict it is either them or us. Unless you would enjoy being transformed into a Husk?

[Novacain999]

I'll tell you why. Because any creature capable of advanced thought can be negotiated with in hte right circumstances. The Geth who do not consider the Reapers gods (and there are ones who think that) would probably recognize that they would wipe them out or use them as slaves, something they would most likely do anything to avoid. Under those circumstances, I wouldn't be stunned if the Geth realize that in order to increase their chances of survival making alliances with meatbags would be a wise investment.



I will say, how the Geth would respond afterwards would be interesting. But that's not what goes with the question in this case, I guess.

[LucidStrike]

marshalleck wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It has nothing to do with what materials an intelligent entity is made of.

Lock two self-interested beings in a room together and they will eventually find something to fight about.

...Because we don't agree on everything...we should destroy one another...? *inches away slowly*

It happens all the time. Wring your hands over it and deny reality all you want, it won't change anything.

When people (read: organics) can't even coexist with each other peacefully, why do you think machines would be treated any differently?

The fallacy is in supposing that that's the way things have to be. It isn't.

It's always strange to be told that humans are "naturally" violent, greedy, hateful warmongers, when I myself am not. I thought I was human.

[sirisaacx]

Schneidend wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It happens all the time. Wring your hands over it and deny reality all you want, it won't change anything.

When people (read: organics) can't even coexist with each other peacefully, why do you think machines would be treated any differently?

Pretty much this. The simple fact that the A.I. are machines, and thus different from them, would be enough for most people, including those in charge of launching the nukes.

Especially since AI is inherently superior. It takes millions of years for a species to evolve to support a vastly new enviornment. For a synthetic it might require a hardware upgrade or a firmware update.

@Delta: Point taken. Wouldn't want things to get out of hand. I remember on the old forums when a gay romance thread became a holocaust denier debate.

[LucidStrike]

Taiko Roshi wrote...

A just and peaceful resolution would be the annihilation of the Geth. Or, at the bear minimum a total overhaul of their programming so that they have a memory wipe and once again become subservient. I thought it was fairly clear in ME 1 that at this stage of the conflict it is either them or us. Unless you would enjoy being transformed into a Husk?

You sound like Fox News. Keep your fear-mongering to yourself. I subscribe to reason. Thanks.

[marshalleck]

LucidStrike wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It has nothing to do with what materials an intelligent entity is made of.

Lock two self-interested beings in a room together and they will eventually find something to fight about.

...Because we don't agree on everything...we should destroy one another...? *inches away slowly*

It happens all the time. Wring your hands over it and deny reality all you want, it won't change anything.

When people (read: organics) can't even coexist with each other peacefully, why do you think machines would be treated any differently?

The fallacy is in supposing that that's the way things have to be. It isn't.

It's always strange to be told that humans are "naturally" violent, greedy, hateful warmongers, when I myself am not. I thought I was human.

No Lucid, the fallacy is you once again assuming things about people you don't know. I never said anything about "well that's the way it's always been done, so it always has to be done that way."  I said I have no reason to believe that a fundamental shift in human nature to pure altruism will ever really come about. Star Trek, as someone else cited, is in my opinion merely wish-fulfillment. Enjoyable wish-fullfilment sure, but ultimately that's what it is.

Could middle ground be found? Probably, but as I said earlier I think it has less to do with "ZOMG they're machines!" and more to do with self-interested bodies coming into conflict. It happens.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:05 .

[Schneidend]

LucidStrike wrote...
The fallacy is in supposing that that's the way things have to be. It isn't.

It's always strange to be told that humans are "naturally" violent, greedy, hateful warmongers, when I myself am not. I thought I was human.

Given the violence you encourage against authorities on a fairly regular basis, I'd say you're plenty violent and hateful, despite claims to the contrary. That you pretend you aren't violent or hateful only further evidences just how similar you are to the rest of us violent, hateful humans.

[Taiko Roshi]

LucidStrike wrote...


It's always strange to be told that humans are "naturally" violent, greedy, hateful warmongers, when I myself am not. I thought I was human.

That may be true, but if you have a room full of individuals such as yourself, and only one of them is greedy or ambitious, then your utopia is ruined from the start. That one individual will take advantage of your good will for his/her own personal gain, thus starting a cycle of resentment and retribution amongst the other people in the room.

Modifié par Taiko Roshi, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:09 .

[sirisaacx]

I doubt a middle ground could be found. Everyone wants to be the top dogs, or be damned to hell. For instance, assuming Saren was right, and the reapers took organics as slaves, I would have still either fought in futility to the end (assuming I was Shepard), or (more likely) cowered in fear. But for two unequal civilizations to coexist peacefully? I'm just not convinced it could happen.

[LucidStrike]

marshalleck wrote...

No Lucid, the fallacy is you once again assuming things about people you don't know. I never said anything about "well that's the way it's always been done, so it always has to be done that way."  I said I have no reason to believe that a fundamental shift in human nature to pure altruism will ever really come about. Star Trek, as someone else cited, is in my opinion merely wish-fulfillment.

Could middle ground be found? Probably, but as I said earlier I think it has less to do with "ZOMG they're machines!" and more to do with self-interested bodies coming into conflict. It happens.

marshalleck wrote...

Lock two self-interested beings in a room together and they will eventually find something to fight about.

How did I misinterpret that? Sounded to me like you're saying violent conflict between any sentient entities is inevitable.  You tell me what you meant, since I'm making unfounded assumptions.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:09 .

[Willowhugger]

I think in Mass Effect, there's serious consequences to playing God. The Geth don't experience things like pity, mercy, or fear because they aren't built to do it. Legion is trying to discover a new way that involves individuality but unless they become more organic; it'll fail. Like the Cylons, the old metal ones are machines and machines cannot love.

[Taiko Roshi]

LucidStrike wrote...

Taiko Roshi wrote...

A just and peaceful resolution would be the annihilation of the Geth. Or, at the bear minimum a total overhaul of their programming so that they have a memory wipe and once again become subservient. I thought it was fairly clear in ME 1 that at this stage of the conflict it is either them or us. Unless you would enjoy being transformed into a Husk?

You sound like Fox News. Keep your fear-mongering to yourself. I subscribe to reason. Thanks.

I subscribe to reason as well. I reasoned that I do not want to be turned into a husk, hence I have the right to fight for my and humanities survival. We are talking about the ME universe here. I also have applied logic to that reasoning. If something is shooting at me and trying to kill me, I should really shoot back, otherwise I will die. Good luck trying to use "reason" without a head.

Modifié par Taiko Roshi, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:14 .

[Vertrucio]

There is no inherent animosity between synthetics and organics. However, like in all life, there is a danger in the unknown. When two people, or civilizations meet that are vastly different, there's bound to be misunderstandings, mistakes, xenophobia, or worse as things get sorted out.



The whole situation between the Quarians and Geth was just one big giant mess of a mistake and tragedy. The Quarians overreacted, then the Geth fought for their lives.

[Lightice_av]

It's always strange to be told that humans are "naturally" violent, greedy, hateful warmongers, when I myself am not. I thought I was human.

You could be if you were constantly exposed to extreme stress and violence. Your current state of being is thanks to the good fortune of having an environment which supports peaceful resolution and punishes aggression and violence.

I doubt a middle ground could be found.

With the Reapers? Probably not - they're too set in their ways. But with the geth there is a chance. The situation doesn't have to be unequal - the geth don't evolve nearly as fast as AIs theoretically could, and the organic civilizations could keep up with them through genetic manipulation and cybernetics, if they had the will to do so - it's not like biotics aren't already a huge precedence for this possibility.

[marshalleck]

LucidStrike wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

No Lucid, the fallacy is you once again assuming things about people you don't know. I never said anything about "well that's the way it's always been done, so it always has to be done that way."  I said I have no reason to believe that a fundamental shift in human nature to pure altruism will ever really come about. Star Trek, as someone else cited, is in my opinion merely wish-fulfillment.

Could middle ground be found? Probably, but as I said earlier I think it has less to do with "ZOMG they're machines!" and more to do with self-interested bodies coming into conflict. It happens.

marshalleck wrote...

Lock two self-interested beings in a room together and they will eventually find something to fight about.

How did I misinterpret that? Sounded to me like you're saying violent conflict between any sentient entities is inevitable.  You tell me what you meant, since I'm making unfounded assumptions.

I'm not sure what you're having difficulty with. The premise of the thread, and one view which has been espoused repeatedly, is that organic beings have some intrinsic bias against synthetics. I'm rejecting that argument and stating the nature of the conflict in more realistic terms as I see it.

The reason organics and synthetics don't get along in the ME universe is the same reason any group or individual may come into conflict with another: a collision of self-interest.