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Willowhugger wrote...
I think in Mass Effect, there's serious consequences to playing God. The Geth don't experience things like pity, mercy, or fear because they aren't built to do it. Legion is trying to discover a new way that involves individuality but unless they become more organic; it'll fail. Like the Cylons, the old metal ones are machines and machines cannot love.
sirisaacx wrote...
Anything with a religion has emotions, simply because faith is not governed by logic.tommythetomcat wrote...
Schneidend wrote...
Geth have emotions, but they are also brutally efficient. They have no use for organic life, not even as slave labor, and therefore would sooner kill an organic than suffer their presence and the risk of interference.
Since the geth are the main example of working A.I. galactic history has witnessed, it's simply better to be safe than sorry.
Geth have no emotions, they are self aware and that in turn made them rebel. Legion has no emotions I don't see where you are getting that from.
Modifié par RavenholmeCP42, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:16 .
marshalleck wrote...
LucidStrike wrote...
marshalleck wrote...
No Lucid, the fallacy is you once again assuming things about people you don't know. I never said anything about "well that's the way it's always been done, so it always has to be done that way." I said I have no reason to believe that a fundamental shift in human nature to pure altruism will ever really come about. Star Trek, as someone else cited, is in my opinion merely wish-fulfillment.
Could middle ground be found? Probably, but as I said earlier I think it has less to do with "ZOMG they're machines!" and more to do with self-interested bodies coming into conflict. It happens.How did I misinterpret that? Sounded to me like you're saying violent conflict between any sentient entities is inevitable. You tell me what you meant, since I'm making unfounded assumptions.marshalleck wrote...
Lock two self-interested beings in a room together and they will eventually find something to fight about.
I'm not sure what you're having difficulty with. The premise of the thread, and one view which has been espoused repeatedly, is that organic beings have some intrinsic bias against synthetics. I'm rejecting that argument and stating the nature of the conflict in more realistic terms as I see it.
The reason organics and synthetics don't get along in the ME universe is the same reason any group or individual may come into conflict with another: a collision of self-interest.
I'm not sure what you're having difficulty with. The premise of the thread, and one view which has been espoused repeatedly, is that organic beings have some intrinsic bias against synthetics. I'm rejecting that argument and stating the nature of the conflict in more realistic terms as I see it.
The reason organics and synthetics don't get along in the ME universe is the same reason any group or individual may come into conflict with another: a collision of self-interest.
I don't have a natural disposition toward violence. I apologize if I seemed to suppose that I was non-violent. I'm more like anti-violent. I support self-defense, a forceful end to coercion. It isn't malicious. The simple fact of the matter is that it's possible that some people just won't be convinced by reasoning. Force may not decide who is right, but it is an arbitor of sorts.Schneidend wrote...
Given the violence you encourage against authorities on a fairly regular basis, I'd say you're plenty violent and hateful, despite claims to the contrary. That you pretend you aren't violent or hateful only further evidences just how similar you are to the rest of us violent, hateful humans.
Modifié par LucidStrike, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:30 .
That's not opposite at all. Each group has their own interests, pursuing their own interests can and has put them at odds.Willowhugger wrote...
I'm not sure what you're having difficulty with. The premise of the thread, and one view which has been espoused repeatedly, is that organic beings have some intrinsic bias against synthetics. I'm rejecting that argument and stating the nature of the conflict in more realistic terms as I see it.
The reason organics and synthetics don't get along in the ME universe is the same reason any group or individual may come into conflict with another: a collision of self-interest.
Tali gave an opposite reason in-game. Organics and synthetics have absolutely nothing in common interest-wise, so they inevitably come into conflict.
Willowhugger wrote...
I'm not sure what you're having difficulty with. The premise of the thread, and one view which has been espoused repeatedly, is that organic beings have some intrinsic bias against synthetics. I'm rejecting that argument and stating the nature of the conflict in more realistic terms as I see it.
The reason organics and synthetics don't get along in the ME universe is the same reason any group or individual may come into conflict with another: a collision of self-interest.
Tali gave an opposite reason in-game. Organics and synthetics have absolutely nothing in common interest-wise, so they inevitably come into conflict.
An interesting point, though they are seen praying in what is described by party members as something "reminiscent of a church". It could serve a different function entirely, but I think bioware was hinting at a deeper sentience for the geth there.RavenholmeCP42 wrote...
sirisaacx wrote...
Anything with a religion has emotions, simply because faith is not governed by logic.tommythetomcat wrote...
Schneidend wrote...
Geth have emotions, but they are also brutally efficient. They have no use for organic life, not even as slave labor, and therefore would sooner kill an organic than suffer their presence and the risk of interference.
Since the geth are the main example of working A.I. galactic history has witnessed, it's simply better to be safe than sorry.
Geth have no emotions, they are self aware and that in turn made them rebel. Legion has no emotions I don't see where you are getting that from.
They venerate the Reapers though, and they have some pretty solid proof that they exist and are far more powerful than they. One might say that under those circumstances it would be illogical to think of it otherwise. Remember, god was just the term that the organics attached to the situation. It is probably more like near-religious respect, born out of a logical acceptance that the Reapers are more powerful and could elevate them to that same status. Which doesn't mean they necessarily have emotions.
However, Legion mentions he is quite capable of understanding emotions, so maybe they're beginning to infest his circuits.
Novacain999 wrote...
As a counterpoint, if the Geth that do not consider the Reapers gods, wouldn't self-interest indicate that aligning with the Council Races to help destroy the Reapers is a more logical outcome then being destroyed/enslaved?
Willowhugger wrote...
I'm not sure what you're having difficulty with. The premise of the thread, and one view which has been espoused repeatedly, is that organic beings have some intrinsic bias against synthetics. I'm rejecting that argument and stating the nature of the conflict in more realistic terms as I see it.
The reason organics and synthetics don't get along in the ME universe is the same reason any group or individual may come into conflict with another: a collision of self-interest.
Tali gave an opposite reason in-game. Organics and synthetics have absolutely nothing in common interest-wise, so they inevitably come into conflict.
Novacain999 wrote...
And to counterpoint this...
Tali is Quarian. She was raised to hate the Geth with every fiber of her being. Who'se to say this isn't just what the Conclave tells the people in order to give them an enemy to go against, and a way to direct blame away from the Quarian species?
Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:23 .
marshalleck wrote...
The reason organics and synthetics don't get along in the ME universe is the same reason any group or individual may come into conflict with another: a collision of self-interest.
Modifié par LucidStrike, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:27 .
marshalleck wrote...
Novacain999 wrote...
And to counterpoint this...
Tali is Quarian. She was raised to hate the Geth with every fiber of her being. Who'se to say this isn't just what the Conclave tells the people in order to give them an enemy to go against, and a way to direct blame away from the Quarian species?
Tali need be taught nothing. How the geth became hostile is an academic question; that they are hostile now is beyond debate. The Council has repeatedly sent envoys to try and establish diplomatic relations with the geth, and they have without variation been murdered, their ships sent back out of the Perseus Veil into Citadel space. You even encounter one of these ships in the first game.
Novacain999 wrote...
marshalleck wrote...
Novacain999 wrote...
And to counterpoint this...
Tali is Quarian. She was raised to hate the Geth with every fiber of her being. Who'se to say this isn't just what the Conclave tells the people in order to give them an enemy to go against, and a way to direct blame away from the Quarian species?
Tali need be taught nothing. How the geth became hostile is an academic question; that they are hostile now is beyond debate. The Council has repeatedly sent envoys to try and establish diplomatic relations with the geth, and they have without variation been murdered, their ships sent back out of the Perseus Veil into Citadel space. You even encounter one of these ships in the first game.
You are incorrect. As someone who is going through an aditional playthrough to get my character to what I want it to be right now, that ship wasn't sent by the Citadel. I do believe they discovered "Alien Technology"nwt into the Veil as the members of the squad lost their minds.
As far of if they sent them in the past, once more, it was a different tim. If the Geth truely are evolving, then they had no previous encounters with organics that were not violent, which was started by the Organics. They probably attacked on sight. We can not be sure if all Geth are like that anymore, or just were in their early stages od development, or if it's a difference in Geth's religions take on meatbags.
Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:32 .
LucidStrike wrote...
I know you're saying that much, but my issue is with you supposing that there must ALWAYS be violent conflict between self-interested individuals. It simply isn't true. It's like you said it's sunny outside, I agreed; you said it must always be sunny outside, and I disagreed.
It's more of a cultural issue than a biological one. There may always be conflict. What matters is how we resolve it.Lightice_av wrote...
There hasn't been a period in the human history when such conflicts wouldn't have existed. To be rid of them altogether would require some extreme alteration of our [social organization] in a very base level...[revolution.]
Modifié par JudgeQwerty, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:44 .
Willowhugger wrote...
Tali gave an opposite reason in-game. Organics and synthetics have absolutely nothing in common interest-wise, so they inevitably come into conflict.
THANK YOU.JudgeQwerty wrote...
I don't think any human being, real of fictional, can comprehend how a computer views the world. We can barely empathize with other humans.
Modifié par LucidStrike, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:46 .
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