355 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

No, not really. The Anti-Sue is still a Mary Sue but with the perfect traits replaced by hideous imperfection.

Plenty of people still talk up Hawke's accomplishments and level of skill, and the plot never bends over backwards to accomodate Hawke. If anything, Hawke is merely swept up in events beyond their control.

This is what I meant earlier by people mis-applying the "Mary Sue" label.

Considering Hawke is an utter failure in almost everything he or she does to an often ridicuolous degree. I think that qualifies them.

So Anti-Sue is the same as Fail-Sue then.

[Face of Evil]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Considering Hawke is an utter failure in almost everything he or she does to an often ridicuolous degree. I think that qualifies them.

I'm not sure where people get this notion that Hawke is a failure. Hawke pulls off some pretty major successes over the course of DA2, like striking it rich in the Deep Roads or singlehandedly defeating the qunari. He even killed the first darkspawn, for Christ's sake.

Sure, Hawke can't stop a lot of the major conflicts that envelop Kirkwall before they start, but heroes are defined by tragedy. For there to be a dragon-slayer, there must first be a dragon. The person who saves a family of five from a burning building gets a medal, but nobody writes epic poems about the guy who remembers to douse his campfire after a weekend at the lake, even if he theoretically prevented a forest fire that would have destroyed hundreds of acres of woodland.

"In a time of myths and legends, when sorceror-kings ruled with impunity and ancient beasts stalked the land, out of the savage north rose a hero named BILL, who remembered to cut his six-pack rings before it could pose a choking hazard for small birds ..."

Likewise, Hawke wouldn't be the Champion of Kirkwall if he was successful in averting every crisis before it started. He can't stop the fire before it starts, but he does a good job of putting it out.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 octobre 2013 - 12:22 .

[The Hierophant]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

No, not really. The Anti-Sue is still a Mary Sue but with the perfect traits replaced by hideous imperfection.

Plenty of people still talk up Hawke's accomplishments and level of skill, and the plot never bends over backwards to accomodate Hawke. If anything, Hawke is merely swept up in events beyond their control.

This is what I meant earlier by people mis-applying the "Mary Sue" label.

Considering Hawke is an utter failure in almost everything he or she does to an often ridicuolous degree. I think that qualifies them.

Hawke's inability to fight or clue Elthina/Arishok in on Petrice after she tried to set them up was facepalm worthy, while the conclusions of Corypheus' and Tallis' quests seemed like a slap to Hawke's face.

[Direwolf0294]

Every single sue label has enitrely lost its meaning at this point because more often than not calling a character a sue, whether mary or other, translates into "I didn't like that character".

[khariuade]

I LOVE AMELLS!

[Shadow Fox]

Face of Evil wrote...

I'm not sure where people get this notion that Hawke is a failure. Hawke pulls off some pretty major successes over the course of DA2, like striking it rich in the Deep Roads or singlehandedly defeating the qunari.

Sure, Hawke can't stop a lot of the conflicts in their tracks, but heroes are defined by tragedy. For there to be a dragon-slayer, there must first be a dragon. The person who saves a family of five from a burning building gets a medal, but nobody writes epic poems about the guy who remembers to douse his campfire after a weekend at the lake, even if he theoretically prevented a forest fire that would have destroyed hundreds of acres of woodland.

Hawke can't stop the wildfire from starting, but he succeeds in putting it out.

Well....the Deep Roads was mostly Anders,Varric,Bartrand and blind luck.And Meredith and Orsino did most of the work in dealing with the Qunari.

[cjones91]

Face of Evil wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Considering Hawke is an utter failure in almost everything he or she does to an often ridicuolous degree. I think that qualifies them.

I'm not sure where people get this notion that Hawke is a failure. Hawke pulls off some pretty major successes over the course of DA2, like striking it rich in the Deep Roads or singlehandedly defeating the qunari. He even killed the first darkspawn, for Christ's sake.

Sure, Hawke can't stop a lot of the major conflicts that envelop Kirkwall before they start, but heroes are defined by tragedy. For there to be a dragon-slayer, there must first be a dragon. The person who saves a family of five from a burning building gets a medal, but nobody writes epic poems about the guy who remembers to douse his campfire after a weekend at the lake, even if he theoretically prevented a forest fire that would have destroyed hundreds of acres of woodland.

"In a time of myths and legends, when sorceror-kings ruled with impunity and ancient beasts stalked the land, out of the savage north rose a hero named BILL, who remembered to cut his six-pack rings before it could pose a choking hazard for small birds ..."

Likewise, Hawke wouldn't be the Champion of Kirkwall if he was successful in averting every crisis before it started. He can't stop the fire before it starts, but he does a good job of putting it out.

Hawke just happend to be at the right place at the right time.Also Corypheus isn't dead and is now roaming the world so Hawke screwed up on that one.

[cjones91]

Morocco Mole wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Hawke's inability to fight or clue Elthina/Arishok in on Petrice after she tried to set them up was facepalm worthy, while the conclusions of Corypheus' and Tallis' quests seemed like a slap to Hawke's face.

Don't forget Anders. Probably one of the most painful and forced bits of railroading ever seen in one of Bioware's RPGs

It still sticks in my craw that you could'nt turn Anders in after having multiple witnesses including the Guard Captain that know he's about to plan something.

[Face of Evil]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Well....the Deep Roads was mostly Anders,Varric,Bartrand and blind luck.And Meredith and Orsino did most of the work in dealing with the Qunari.

lolwut 

How did Meredith and Orsino do most of the work dealing with the qunari? They provided a distraction while you dealt with the Arishok. Big effin' whoop. Technically, one of your party members could have done the same thing with some fireworks.

Anders and Bartrand only provided the maps to the Primeval Thaig. And while Varric was there for the whole journey, he quite frankly would have died if Hawke hadn't been there.

By that line of thinking, Flemeth is the true hero of Dragon Age: Origins, since she provided the Warden the treaties necessary to recruit the armies to defeat the darkspawn AND rescued the Warden from the Tower of Ishal. The rest of the game wouldn't be possible without her.

cjones91 wrote...

Hawke just happend to be at the right place at the right time.Also Corypheus isn't dead and is now roaming the world so Hawke screwed up on that one.

That's all most heroes are. Also, if and when Corypheus shows up again, then you can say he's alive. Until that day, all you have to prove he pulled off some body-swapping trick is some ominous music and some unusual syntax.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 octobre 2013 - 12:51 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Don't give them any more ideas FOE.

[AresKeith]

Face of Evil wrote...

That's all most heroes are. Also, if and when Corypheus shows up again, then you can say he's alive. Until that day, all you have to prove he pulled off some body-swapping trick is some ominous music and some unusual syntax.

If you wanna ignore the obvious signs of them then sure

[Xilizhra]

To call Hawke a failure is a bit ridiculous, given that even surviving for seven years through all of that crap, and keeping everyone else alive as well, is a major achievement. Sure, she couldn't fix everything herself like some other video game protagonists, but compared to the general population, she's remarkably impressive.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

To call Hawke a failure is a bit ridiculous, given that even surviving for seven years through all of that crap, and keeping everyone else alive as well, is a major achievement. Sure, she couldn't fix everything herself like some other video game protagonists, but compared to the general population, she's remarkably impressive.

A crappy hero in a crappy city 

[Face of Evil]

AresKeith wrote...

If you wanna ignore the obvious signs of them then sure

And if he never shows up again? What then?

Just because you want a thing to happen is not proof that a thing actually happened.

[Xilizhra]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To call Hawke a failure is a bit ridiculous, given that even surviving for seven years through all of that crap, and keeping everyone else alive as well, is a major achievement. Sure, she couldn't fix everything herself like some other video game protagonists, but compared to the general population, she's remarkably impressive.

A crappy hero in a crappy city 

Being a hero is a lot harder when you can't just kill your problems like the Warden could. How do you kill a city that turns everything horrible? It's coming out of the very walls; you'd need to demolish the whole thing.

[AresKeith]

Face of Evil wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

If you wanna ignore the obvious signs of them then sure

And if he never shows up again? What then?

Just because you want a thing to happen is not proof that a thing actually happened.

He never shows up again then meh, but he most likely will show up again

That bolded part is flipped on you, since Bioware put the signs that he's very much alive after possessing one of the Wardens

[cjones91]

Face of Evil wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

If you wanna ignore the obvious signs of them then sure

And if he never shows up again? What then?

Just because you want a thing to happen is not proof that a thing actually happened.

They could'nt make Cory's survival more obvious if there was big neon sigh on the screen that said 'Hey Corypheus is alive stupid!"What ever happend to people reading between the lines instead of having to be spoonfed twists in a story?

[Ianamus]

I see Hawke as something resembling the opposite of a Mary Sue protagonist. Where Mary Sue protagonists have the world revolve around them Hawke is often so displaced and unable to act upon the world that they almost don't seem to be a part of it themselves, only a window for the player to watch stuff happening between other people.

Modifié par EJ107, 13 octobre 2013 - 01:09 .

[cjones91]

AresKeith wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

If you wanna ignore the obvious signs of them then sure

And if he never shows up again? What then?

Just because you want a thing to happen is not proof that a thing actually happened.

He never shows up again then meh, but he most likely will show up again

That bolded part is flipped on you, since Bioware put the signs that he's very much alive after possessing one of the Wardens

It suprises me how some people just ignore the fact that Larius all of sudden started walking upright and talking normally after making eye contact with Corypheus.I don't know whether those people are just dense or willfully ignorant because they want to cling to their headcanon.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To call Hawke a failure is a bit ridiculous, given that even surviving for seven years through all of that crap, and keeping everyone else alive as well, is a major achievement. Sure, she couldn't fix everything herself like some other video game protagonists, but compared to the general population, she's remarkably impressive.

A crappy hero in a crappy city 

Being a hero is a lot harder when you can't just kill your problems like the Warden could. How do you kill a city that turns everything horrible? It's coming out of the very walls; you'd need to demolish the whole thing.

That's basically what Hawke did

[TheKomandorShepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

To call Hawke a failure is a bit ridiculous, given that even surviving for seven years through all of that crap, and keeping everyone else alive as well, is a major achievement. Sure, she couldn't fix everything herself like some other video game protagonists, but compared to the general population, she's remarkably impressive.

Hawke is dumb muscle and pawn to most characters isabela told him truth he is respected errand boy nothing more he screwd up in every line and if anything that hawke keep alive alive are characters from side quests. Hawke was mostly unimportant and things would go that same or even better without him.To be honest he reminds me Gilderoy Lockhart from HP and only thing what he did is killing arishok rest of stories when he is painted as a hero or villain he was only pawn and guy to throw fault at him.

[Cainhurst Crow]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To call Hawke a failure is a bit ridiculous, given that even surviving for seven years through all of that crap, and keeping everyone else alive as well, is a major achievement. Sure, she couldn't fix everything herself like some other video game protagonists, but compared to the general population, she's remarkably impressive.

A crappy hero in a crappy city