512 réponses à ce sujet

[Dieb]

Yes, it's very interesting indeed. But that's not what my point is about.

If the developers say it's not there, and the hints that once had a meaning canonically end up not having one after all, then that's that. If the dark energy plot were the one to be included, then we'd end up noticing hints about other possible story constructs; and maybe a fully fleshed out, hypothetical version of the dark energy plot would make even less sense after a third game is released with it as the primary theme.

It remains but speculation. Like a beautiful girl you've never actually spoken with. The prominent features are factually amazing, but you have no idea what else is there that may or may not ruin everything.

As much as I love Mass Effect, it was made up as they went. That's why we could have this discussion ad infinitum.

[tevix]

ME2 & 3 are supposedly both canon. That doesn't actually work, though, as far as the reaper line is concerned, since ME3 disregards pretty much everything in 2 and almost acts as if it never happened.

ME2 was written with the intention of connecting dots, ME3 was not. ME3 was written to be self-contained so as to be more accessible. Both of these games cannot exist in the same universe. If you accept ME3 as canon, ME2 essentially didn't happen. If you accept ME2 as canon, then ME3 essentially didn't happen.

To use your analogy: In one moment you have learned a great deal about this girl, and decided to talk to her about what you've learned about her. Then immediately when you go to talk, you decide not to because you know nothing about her.

Both cannot be true, unless you've had an incredibly sudden bout of amnesia.

[Dieb]

Well, I would never argue that major events in ME2 are never spoken of in ME3, but aside from people acting slightly different up to out of character (which subjectively is a more or less dubious fact depending on every single instance) it is hardly ever outright contradicted by it, as far as I can recall. So yes, they bullshat their way through quite obviously at times, but always just on the verge of actual contradiction.

But as much as I enjoy a non-hostile discussion, we're derailing the thread quite a bit here...

Modifié par Baelrahn, 15 octobre 2013 - 12:51 .

[KaiserShep]

tevix wrote...

ME2 & 3 are supposedly both canon. That doesn't actually work, though, as far as the reaper line is concerned, since ME3 disregards pretty much everything in 2 and almost acts as if it never happened.

ME2 was written with the intention of connecting dots, ME3 was not. ME3 was written to be self-contained so as to be more accessible. Both of these games cannot exist in the same universe. If you accept ME3 as canon, ME2 essentially didn't happen. If you accept ME2 as canon, then ME3 essentially didn't happen.

To use your analogy: In one moment you have learned a great deal about this girl, and decided to talk to her about what you've learned about her. Then immediately when you go to talk, you decide not to because you know nothing about her.

Both cannot be true, unless you've had an incredibly sudden bout of amnesia.

There's still the little matter of lots of references to the previous game all over the place. Even the Omega DLC brings up Mordin's recruitment mission, where Shepard will mention Mordin's fate (if you finished Tuchanka). The dark energy thing was tossed out, but just about everything else remained.

[Cainhurst Crow]

15 pages are you kidding me?

[TheMyron]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

15 pages are you kidding me?

Who exactly are those two guys in your avatar?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

TheMyron wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

15 pages are you kidding me?

Who exactly are those two guys in your avatar?

*eye twitch*

[CynicalShep]

TheMyron wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

15 pages are you kidding me?

Who exactly are those two guys in your avatar?

Malgus and Vindican from this video

Edit: oops, wrong trailer. I'm on my phone, just look up the SWTOR trailer on YouTube.

*paragon interrupt* There it is

Modifié par CynicalShep, 15 octobre 2013 - 07:06 .

[tevix]

The shadow broke saw a conclusion, and a logical follow-through from 1, to 2, to 3.

You don't introduce dark energy the way it was and then just drop it. You don't have to spend 8 hours talking about it for it to be clear it was put there for a reason. It was dropped because drew left, and supermac wanted speculayshuns for everyone with hudson.

As I mentioned earlier, the dark energy plotline they WERE developing (and remember, there was more information about it in interviews than what made it into the game cause...that would have been revealed in 3) connects the dots I mentioned earlier quite nicely.

Without that plotline, ME2's reaper "advancement" seems pointless, because it was made so by 3. Not because it was pointless to begin with.

[AlanC9]

tevix wrote...

You don't introduce dark energy the way it was and then just drop it. You don't have to spend 8 hours talking about it for it to be clear it was put there for a reason. It was dropped because drew left, and supermac wanted speculayshuns for everyone with hudson.

Or it was dropped bacause the dark energy plot was just bad.

[tevix]

Please, elaborate on why you think it was bad.

[dreamgazer]

tevix wrote...

Please, elaborate on why you think it was bad.

http://www.escapistm...ed-Ending-Ideas

"Then we thought, well, let's take it to the next level, maybe the Reapers are looking at a way to stop this. Maybe there's an inevitable descent into the opposite of the big bang, like the big crunch, the end of the universe, and they realize that the only way to stop it is through using biotics, and since they can't do it, that's sort of why they keep rebuilding society. They're trying to find the perfect group to use biotics," he continued. "The Asari were close but they weren't quite right, the Proteans maybe were close, and they kept trying again and again, where all of it's sort of a giant experiment, as they're trying to find the right mix of mental fortitude and biotic ability and whatever else in the genetic code that allows a particular species to use biotics to stop the end of the universe, or maybe ascend into Reaperhood and still keep this biotic power."

Speaks for itself, really. 

[tevix]

So what? The details weren't flushed out? I never claimed they were. I said the basic idea behind the original concept that was considered earlier makes sense.

The idea that dark energy was a threat (of what kind exactly obviously needed work. That's sort of how writing happens.), and they were essentially out of time. That desperation drove them to create and deploy the collectors to try to sample the galaxy, find the best group. With sovereign dead and the humans having piqued their interest, harbinger steps them up to try to create their last-ditch-effort reaper in secret.

Not to try to open the relay, but to pool the extra intelligence and try to stop the problem.

Let's be honest, any ending to the reaper plotline is going to divide people. Something like the reapers cannot be handled in a way that appeases everyone, probably not even most. I like a DE based plotline because it could have at least kept the dots connected, even if it wasn't that great.

What we got was an ending that kind of sucked, AND connected no dots. IMO, that's worse.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

tevix wrote...

You don't introduce dark energy the way it was and then just drop it. You don't have to spend 8 hours talking about it for it to be clear it was put there for a reason. It was dropped because drew left, and supermac wanted speculayshuns for everyone with hudson.

Or it was dropped bacause the dark energy plot was just bad.

I fail to see how it's any better or worse than what we got.  What we've been told is nothing more than the skeleton of an idea.  Nothing more.

[Mr.House]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

tevix wrote...

You don't introduce dark energy the way it was and then just drop it. You don't have to spend 8 hours talking about it for it to be clear it was put there for a reason. It was dropped because drew left, and supermac wanted speculayshuns for everyone with hudson.

Or it was dropped bacause the dark energy plot was just bad.

I fail to see how it's any better or worse than what we got.  What we've been told is nothing more than the skeleton of an idea.  Nothing more.

The fact that Chris, one of the best writers Bioware had outright bashed the idea and was happy to see it canned says alot.

[Mr.House]

tevix wrote...

ME2 & 3 are supposedly both canon. That doesn't actually work, though, as far as the reaper line is concerned, since ME3 disregards pretty much everything in 2 and almost acts as if it never happened.

ME2 was written with the intention of connecting dots, ME3 was not. ME3 was written to be self-contained so as to be more accessible. Both of these games cannot exist in the same universe. If you accept ME3 as canon, ME2 essentially didn't happen. If you accept ME2 as canon, then ME3 essentially didn't happen.

To use your analogy: In one moment you have learned a great deal about this girl, and decided to talk to her about what you've learned about her. Then immediately when you go to talk, you decide not to because you know nothing about her.

Both cannot be true, unless you've had an incredibly sudden bout of amnesia.

Um no. ME2 was also written as a self contained story for new players. Get your fan boy glasses off. ME2 didn't connect nay dots, at least ME3 CONTINUED from what MEs ending forshadowed. What did ME2 continue? ME2 ends the same way as ME, ya that's connecting the dots alright.

ME3 with all it's flaws at least continued the story unlike ME2 which was a big waste of time and money. Sadly you and other don't see that because pretty explosions and butload characters to make you feel good.

[dreamgazer]

ME2 was (interesting) lore padding without a relevant forward-moving plot.

I still enjoy the experience and the self-contained writing, but it definitely has issues.

[Seboist]

dreamgazer wrote...

ME2 was (interesting) lore padding without a relevant forward-moving plot.

I still enjoy the experience and the self-contained writing, but it definitely has issues.

ME2 did have some interesting self-contained bits like Mordin's LM which is one of the few actual genuine sci-fi moments and one of the best written ones in the series. Legion's LM is another such example.

Unfortunately, as a complete package it's a dud on it's own and as a middle entry.

[Mr.House]

Mordin is undoubtedly the best thing that came out of ME2.

[Sir DeLoria]

Mr.House wrote...

Mordin is undoubtedly the best thing that came out of ME2.

I doubt that, your statement is incorrect.

[KwangtungTiger]

Mr.House wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

tevix wrote...

You don't introduce dark energy the way it was and then just drop it. You don't have to spend 8 hours talking about it for it to be clear it was put there for a reason. It was dropped because drew left, and supermac wanted speculayshuns for everyone with hudson.

Or it was dropped bacause the dark energy plot was just bad.

I fail to see how it's any better or worse than what we got.  What we've been told is nothing more than the skeleton of an idea.  Nothing more.

The fact that Chris, one of the best writers Bioware had outright bashed the idea and was happy to see it canned says alot.

Where is this at? I dont remember hearing about it.

[Iakus]

StreetMagic wrote...

It's better to tell people who don't like ME2 to simply **** off. And then move on. Don't get lost in some delusion that you'll convince them of anything - or they will convince of anything in turn. Just embrace the hate. Everyone wins. I think.

ME2:  

Good characters

weak RPG elements

Nonexistant story.

Better ending than ME3