50 réponses à ce sujet

[Kirchroa Alaaf]

N7didacus wrote...

Recharge speed is overrated.

Indeed, this was one of the first things I found out. I was really obsessed with getting the 200%, but at the end you gain so much destruction by dropping 30 or 40% cooldown by gaining more damage output.

[capn233]

Power Recharge Speed limits are set at +200%, -200% in coalesced.

PRS is only one part of the cooldown formula. If you were limited, than Tech Armor would have no effect on cooldown when you are sitting at -200% PRS, for example.

Dynamic bonuses to cooldown, rank bonuses from power evolutions, and bonuses from armor mods, gear, or intel in XP, all add separately from PRS in the cooldown calculation.

Modifié par capn233, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:33 .

[Deerber]

TMB903 wrote...

It's so negligible that it's not even worth it TBH.

Fortack wrote...

Accept the Claymore as your Lord and Savior to cleanse yourself from this cooldown madness.

Any real good player will tell you this.

Modifié par Deerber, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:52 .

[NuclearTech76]

capn233 wrote...

Power Recharge Speed limits are set at +200%, -200% in coalesced.

PRS is only one part of the cooldown formula. If you were limited, than Tech Armor would have no effect on cooldown when you are sitting at -200% PRS, for example.

Dynamic bonuses to cooldown, rank bonuses from power evolutions, and bonuses from armor mods, gear, or intel in XP, all add separately from PRS in the cooldown calculation.

Are the numbers represented in the builders accurate without taking into account the weight glitches on mods, and global game speed modifiers for Plat and Gold?

[Alfonsedode]

capn233 wrote...

Power Recharge Speed limits are set at +200%, -200% in coalesced.

PRS
is only one part of the cooldown formula. If you were limited, than
Tech Armor would have no effect on cooldown when you are sitting at
-200% PRS, for example.

Dynamic bonuses to cooldown, rank bonuses
from power evolutions, and bonuses from armor mods, gear, or intel in
XP, all add separately from PRS in the cooldown calculation.

What part of the PRS formula is limited to +200% -200 % ? Is it : no more than divided by 3 ?

As for the negative part, nothing in the formula can gave U a longer PRS, or am I misunderstanding what U R talking about ? (I dont see where the tech armor penalty type R going in the formula either)

What are the Dynamic bonuses to cooldown ?

Modifié par alfonsedode, 14 octobre 2013 - 06:33 .

[NuclearTech76]

alfonsedode wrote...

capn233 wrote...

Power Recharge Speed limits are set at +200%, -200% in coalesced.

PRS
is only one part of the cooldown formula. If you were limited, than
Tech Armor would have no effect on cooldown when you are sitting at
-200% PRS, for example.

Dynamic bonuses to cooldown, rank bonuses
from power evolutions, and bonuses from armor mods, gear, or intel in
XP, all add separately from PRS in the cooldown calculation.

What part of the PRS formula is limited to +200% -200 % ? Is it : no more than divided by 3 ?

As for the negative part, nothing in the formula can gave U a longer PRS, or am I misunderstanding what U R talking about ? (I dont see where the tech armor penalty type R going in the formula either)

What are the Dynamic bonuses to cooldown ?

Perhaps toggleable abilities like HM and Ascension mode? Maybe?

[jamdjedi]

I play my Slayer, Fury and Sentinel with the Eagle and play with 200% cool down; I use the 12% tech damage and cooldown on my Sentinel.. call me n00b I like to be able to BC almost every second on my Slayer and be able to deplete my Shield from PS in 5 seconds with 5 shots..

whenever I go ever 200% on any of the abovementioned classes I 'feel' the powers are coming up slower

[NuclearTech76]

Ganglok3 wrote...

I play my Slayer, Fury and Sentinel with the Eagle and play with 200% cool down; I use the 12% tech damage and cooldown on my Sentinel.. call me n00b I like to be able to BC almost every second on my Slayer and be able to deplete my Shield from PS in 5 seconds with 5 shots..

whenever I go ever 200% on any of the abovementioned classes I 'feel' the powers are coming up slower

A wise Geth once told me before nuking a swarmer: There is no kill like overkill.

[Deerber]

Ganglok3 wrote...

I play my Slayer, Fury and Sentinel with the Eagle and play with 200% cool down; I use the 12% tech damage and cooldown on my Sentinel.. call me n00b I like to be able to BC almost every second on my Slayer and be able to deplete my Shield from PS in 5 seconds with 5 shots..

whenever I go ever 200% on any of the abovementioned classes I 'feel' the powers are coming up slower

Don't worry, you'll learn. We all did.

[jamdjedi]

Deerber wrote...

Ganglok3 wrote...

I play my Slayer, Fury and Sentinel with the Eagle and play with 200% cool down; I use the 12% tech damage and cooldown on my Sentinel.. call me n00b I like to be able to BC almost every second on my Slayer and be able to deplete my Shield from PS in 5 seconds with 5 shots..

whenever I go ever 200% on any of the abovementioned classes I 'feel' the powers are coming up slower

Don't worry, you'll learn. We all did.

won't I lose out on power damage since those are power heavy classes? since I rock the power damage amp on my pistol? so I'm losing out on 20% damage from that amp alone?  I usually do ok with damage numbers on the 3 classes-usually 1-2 host or non-host Gold, unless there are two people with 13000+ N7 ratings that have all IV consumables in the lobby with me.

With the Fury I barely use the weapon since throw or the DOT power are almost ALWAYS up-unless I got hit by a swarmer and on a fury that's usually a recipe for death anyway.. on a Slayer I don't use the weapon much unless I got gated and need to hide..

I figure if my powers are up all the time I'll have no need to use a weapon-on these classes- I use the gun more often on the Sentinel

[Deerber]

Ganglok3 wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Ganglok3 wrote...

I play my Slayer, Fury and Sentinel with the Eagle and play with 200% cool down; I use the 12% tech damage and cooldown on my Sentinel.. call me n00b I like to be able to BC almost every second on my Slayer and be able to deplete my Shield from PS in 5 seconds with 5 shots..

whenever I go ever 200% on any of the abovementioned classes I 'feel' the powers are coming up slower

Don't worry, you'll learn. We all did.

won't I lose out on power damage since those are power heavy classes? since I rock the power damage amp on my pistol? so I'm losing out on 20% damage from that amp alone?  I usually do ok with damage numbers on the 3 classes-usually 1-2 host or non-host Gold, unless there are two people with 13000+ N7 ratings that have all IV consumables in the lobby with me.

With the Fury I barely use the weapon since throw or the DOT power are almost ALWAYS up-unless I got hit by a swarmer and on a fury that's usually a recipe for death anyway.. on a Slayer I don't use the weapon much unless I got gated and need to hide..

I figure if my powers are up all the time I'll have no need to use a weapon-on these classes- I use the gun more often on the Sentinel

Well, there's no *need* to use anything in this game over anything else, pretty much. Almost all the things you can do, be it fire a weapon or use a power, will end up with the death of your enemy anyway.

The point which people around here usually try to follow is: what can I do to kill stuff in the fastest way possible? And that question has a different answer, and it's an answer that combines both the use of powers and of a good gun. There is absolutely no exception to that. There might be some kits that use powers more than others, but if you see someone playing a kit and almost never firing his gun, you can be 100% sure that he's not maximizing his killing speed.

That said, I'm not saying that you should actively try not to stay on 200% CDs. What I'm saying is that you should not give up the chance to use a good gun because it takes you lower than 200%. For example, I use a Talon on the Slayer and that gives me 200% CDs, but that's just because I find that gun to fit him perfectly and I wouldn't use a heavier one even if they had the same weight. If the "right" gun gave me 120% CD instead of 200%, I wouldn't waste a single second thinking about which one I should use - it would be the "right" one. Because, even if I lost something on power damage output, I would more than make up for it with the better gun.

Modifié par Deerber, 14 octobre 2013 - 08:09 .

[Wizard of Ox]

Why the hell would you need a 200% recharge speed on the Fury?

[jamdjedi]

KroGan_eRRanT wrote...

Why the hell would you need a 200% recharge speed on the Fury?

BE's Galore! I tend to play her 'in your face' thus spamming throw while the baddies on within the AF helps

[Wizard of Ox]

Ganglok3 wrote...

KroGan_eRRanT wrote...

Why the hell would you need a 200% recharge speed on the Fury?

BE's Galore! I tend to play her 'in your face' thus spamming throw while the baddies on within the AF helps

I understand that but you still need to re-prime a target and finish off those who haven't died from the BEs. And for that you need a good weapon. And, as the cooldown on Throw is very short and AF is constantly activated, you don't need a very low recharge speed. As long as you're above 100%, you'd able to detonate BEs frequently. 

[Fortack]

Ganglok3 wrote...

KroGan_eRRanT wrote...

Why the hell would you need a 200% recharge speed on the Fury?

BE's Galore! I tend to play her 'in your face' thus spamming throw while the baddies on within the AF helps

AF only primes those baddies for one BE > so you (or they) have to move around to refresh the AF's effect if you wanna blow them up again > which takes more time than Throw's cooldown > and therefore makes said cooldown more or less irrelevant to the number of BEs you can pull off each game playing a Fury.

[edit]

Modifié par Fortack, 14 octobre 2013 - 08:43 .

[Simba501]

Deerber wrote...

Ganglok3 wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Ganglok3 wrote...

I play my Slayer, Fury and Sentinel with the Eagle and play with 200% cool down; I use the 12% tech damage and cooldown on my Sentinel.. call me n00b I like to be able to BC almost every second on my Slayer and be able to deplete my Shield from PS in 5 seconds with 5 shots..

whenever I go ever 200% on any of the abovementioned classes I 'feel' the powers are coming up slower

Don't worry, you'll learn. We all did.

won't I lose out on power damage since those are power heavy classes? since I rock the power damage amp on my pistol? so I'm losing out on 20% damage from that amp alone?  I usually do ok with damage numbers on the 3 classes-usually 1-2 host or non-host Gold, unless there are two people with 13000+ N7 ratings that have all IV consumables in the lobby with me.

With the Fury I barely use the weapon since throw or the DOT power are almost ALWAYS up-unless I got hit by a swarmer and on a fury that's usually a recipe for death anyway.. on a Slayer I don't use the weapon much unless I got gated and need to hide..

I figure if my powers are up all the time I'll have no need to use a weapon-on these classes- I use the gun more often on the Sentinel

Well, there's no *need* to use anything in this game over anything else, pretty much. Almost all the things you can do, be it fire a weapon or use a power, will end up with the death of your enemy anyway.

The point which people around here usually try to follow is: what can I do to kill stuff in the fastest way possible? And that question has a different answer, and it's an answer that combines both the use of powers and of a good gun. There is absolutely no exception to that. There might be some kits that use powers more than others, but if you see someone playing a kit and almost never firing his gun, you can be 100% sure that he's not maximizing his killing speed.

That said, I'm not saying that you should actively try not to stay on 200% CDs. What I'm saying is that you should not give up the chance to use a good gun because it takes you lower than 200%. For example, I use a Talon on the Slayer and that gives me 200% CDs, but that's just because I find that gun to fit him perfectly and I wouldn't use a heavier one even if they had the same weight. If the "right" gun gave me 120% CD instead of 200%, I wouldn't waste a single second thinking about which one I should use - it would be the "right" one. Because, even if I lost something on power damage output, I would more than make up for it with the better gun.

Well said.

[DocDAM]

alfonsedode wrote...

What part of the PRS formula is limited to +200% -200 % ? Is it : no more than divided by 3 ?

As for the negative part, nothing in the formula can gave U a longer PRS, or am I misunderstanding what U R talking about ? (I dont see where the tech armor penalty type R going in the formula either)

What are the Dynamic bonuses to cooldown ?

By PRS, he means just the weapon-weight dependent part.  The one you see in your weapon screen.  So, no matter how light a weapon you choose, this number doesn't go above 200%.  No matter how heavy a combo of weapons you take (Javelin/Claymore anybody?), you can't go below "-200%".  The minus there takes a little explaining.  If these were the only bonus/penalties, this is what you'd have:
shortest cooldown = base cooldown / (100% + 200%) = base / 3
longest cooldown = base cooldown * (100% + 200% ) = base * 3
see, they "flip" the "-200%" into the numerator as a positive to make it work

But then, as Nuke wrote, there are all the other ("dynamic") bonuses.  See, for example, my post on p1.  Some include:
recharge bonus virtually all powers have on rank 2 (+25%)
Structural Ergonomics gear (up to +15%)
Power Efficiency Mod (up to +50%)
Then there are the penatlies from Tech Armor, Fortification, etc.  Typically a -50%
And the weight penalty mods (ex: AR Heavy Barrel) at -50%.  But note there's a bug which doesn't apply these penalyies to original (non-DLC) weapons.  So carry a pistol HB on your Talon!

These all add (or subtract) from the "PRS" and can thus violate the +200/-200% limits.

Modifié par DocDAM, 14 octobre 2013 - 08:52 .

[capn233]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

capn233 wrote...

Power Recharge Speed limits are set at +200%, -200% in coalesced.

PRS is only one part of the cooldown formula. If you were limited, than Tech Armor would have no effect on cooldown when you are sitting at -200% PRS, for example.

Dynamic bonuses to cooldown, rank bonuses from power evolutions, and bonuses from armor mods, gear, or intel in XP, all add separately from PRS in the cooldown calculation.

Are the numbers represented in the builders accurate without taking into account the weight glitches on mods, and global game speed modifiers for Plat and Gold?

Global game speed modifiers don't affect calculated cooldown time.  They just change the length of "game seconds."

To answer the other question, when I said dynamic cooldown modifiers, I was in fact talking about powers like Tech Armor, Fortification, etc... basically cooldown effects from powers.  You could consider armor and intel (SP) and armor module / gear bonuses as part of that as well if you want.

Rank bonuses of the powers themselves are a different term.

Elaboration:

Most everything related to cooldown is expressed in terms of "encumbrance."  This includes weapon weights, weight capacity, and cooldown penalties or bonuses.  Depending on the context, they will show up in different formats, like a "percentage" for Power Recharge Speed, an integer for Weight Capacity bonuses, or they may be somewhat hidden like actual weapon weights.

Power Rechage Speed (I will abbreviate as PRS from here on out) is just a single variable that you get, and it is clearly defined.  It is displayed in the Weapon screen, and is what is capped at -200 or +200% (-2 or 2 in terms of encumbrance).

PRS = 2.0 + StartingEncumbrance + SumWeightCapacityBonus - SumWeaponEncumbrance

StartingEncumbrance is 0.75 for Shepard ("75"), and varies by character in MP (it is at least 0.3, or "30" when written like capacity bonuses).

SumWeightCapacityBonus is basically all your weight capacity bonuses from passive.  They will be expressed in encumbrance in the formula, so a bonus of "50" from the power screen is 0.5 for the calculation.

SumWeaponEncumbrance is just the total weight of your weapons.  A Claymore X has an encumbrance of 2.0, for example.  In theory the weight adding mods would increase this number, but it is bugged.  Passive evolution bonuses to weapon weight, such as "Reduce Shotgun weight by 20%" essentially add here.  On this hypothetical character, that means that a Claymore X would be 2.0 - 0.2 or 1.8.  It is really a pure weight capacity bonus that is only added for that weapon type, not a percent weight reduction.

After the game runs that equation, it will then compare to the PRS limits.  If it is above or below the limits, it just uses -2 or +2.

Next are Rank Bonuses, which are pretty simple.  They are just the cooldown bonuses you get when you rank up a power.  Nearly every power has one at Rank 2 (+ 25%, which will be 0.25 for calculations).

Finally we can just make a catchall for Dynamic Bonuses and say it is the sum of everything else, minus penalties from powers like Tech Armor.  Specifics will differ from MP to SP (armor and intel vs armor modules and gear).  Note again that when the game says Tech Armor has a "50% cooldown penalty" that just means -0.5 in these equations.  Or when Power Efficiency Module gives you "30% faster power recharge" it is just adding 0.3 here.

TotalBonus = PRS + Rank Bonus + Dynamic Bonus

The total bonus does not have a limit, although as others have pointed out there isn't a great reason to add on more random bonuses if you are at 200% PRS.

The cooldown formula used will depend on if the TotalBonus is positive or negative.  If positive:

Cooldown = BaseCD * [ 1 / (1 + TotalBonus) ] , where BaseCD is the base cooldown of the power.

If negative:

Cooldown = BaseCD* [ 1 - TotalBonus]

Modifié par capn233, 14 octobre 2013 - 09:59 .

[capn233]

Example from SP: Level 3 Sentinel w/ default Katana I and Predator I. Tech Armor Rank 1, and Throw Rank 2.

Katana I = 1.5 encumbrance
Predator I = 0.5 encumbrance
Shep starting weight capacity = 0.75
Throw base cooldown = 4 seconds
Throw rank 2 bonus = 0.25
Tech Armor penalty = -0.5

Shepard's weapon encumbrance = 1.5 + 0.5 = 2.0

PRS = 2.0 + 0.75 - 2.0 = 0.75 (it will display "75%" in the Weapon screen).

TotalBonus = PRS + RankBonus + Dynamic Bonus

If Tech Armor is off:

DynamicBonus = 0

TotalBonus = 0.75 + 0.25 + 0 = 1.0

ThrowCooldown = BaseCD * [1/(1 + TotalBonus)]

ThrowCooldown = 4 * [1/(1 + 1)] = 4* 1/2 = 2 seconds

If Tech Armor is on:

DynamicBonus = -0.5

TotalBonus = 0.75 + 0.25 - 0.5 = 0.5

ThrowCooldown = BaseCD * [1/(1 + TotalBonus)]

ThrowCooldown = 4 * [1/(1 + 0.5)] = 2.67 seconds

Mathematically, it doesn't matter if you define PRS as part of the Dynamic Bonus or not, as long as you account for it. There are probably old posts where that is the case. I did not include it as part of that here just because I think it makes it a little more clear.

[NuclearTech76]

Are you sure on the difficulty not effecting the CD speed? Didn't someone have a thread about observed CDs being different on Silver and Gold? Pretty sure there is a reference in Godless Paladin's mechanics thread. It maybe mistaken as I also could be.

I guess I could time it on a Demolisher with an insane loadout on console but not as accurate.

[Chealec]

AaronEh wrote...

Chealec wrote...

Isn't it like a curve though with the gains lessening as you increase your recharge speed? e.g. there's a bigger difference in cooldown speed between 0 and 100 recharge speed than there is between 100 and 200.

So whilst you can go over 200% it's not really worth it... I may be completely wrong on this mind.

Yes

Heh - perfect example of a picture being worth a 1000 words Thanks for that.

[OniGanon]

You don't need 200% on a Fury. You can put a Claymore on her and she works fine, because Annilihation Field lasts so long, Throw has such a low base cooldown, and Dark Channel really isn't a power you need to spam a lot.

The ones who need really low cooldowns are those depending on two cooldown powers (eg Warp + Throw) or those using powers with a long base cooldown.

Modifié par OniGanon, 14 octobre 2013 - 11:33 .

[Cyonan]

Chealec wrote...


Heh - perfect example of a picture being worth a 1000 words Thanks for that.

The idea of power recharge becoming worse at higher numbers is not entirely true.

The cooldown gets reduced by less as you go higher, but the overall damage output will scale in a linear manner.

Basically, if your ability's base cooldown is 8 seconds then every 100% recharge speed you get will grant you 1 more cast every 8 seconds.

[capn233]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Are you sure on the difficulty not effecting the CD speed? Didn't someone have a thread about observed CDs being different on Silver and Gold? Pretty sure there is a reference in Godless Paladin's mechanics thread. It maybe mistaken as I also could be.

The game speed is increased at higher difficulties, so if you time the cooldown in real world seconds it will appear shorter than what you calculate.  This is because time is moving faster in game, not because gamespeed modifier affects calculated cooldown.

Gold and Platinum speed multiplier is 1.075x.  Time is effectively compressed by that factor.  A 2 second cooldown will still take 2 seconds of game time.  It is just that 2 seconds of game time is only 1.86 seconds of real time.

[Alfonsedode]

Bookmarked for later reading !