217 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Except that it is. That's the twist.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except that it is. That's the twist.

But it's not. The Chantry lied about Shartan's existence.

[LobselVith8]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I hope it's not the case because it sounds like a lot of people (including you-- "That just happened too many times throughout history, and I bet it's the case here too") are projecting real-world bias into this issue.

Ditto. 

If anything, the team so far seems to have gone to some lengths to make the Chantry's description of events the most accurate one - such as Anders being floored that Corypheus really was a Tevinter magister. 

Anders already believed in the fable of the Golden City in Awakening and the main narrative of Dragon Age II. And I don't see how that's an example of the Chantry version of events being the most 'accurate'.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...
But it's not. The Chantry lied about Shartan's existence.

Considering two random Sisters on the street are capable of confirming him, it isn't so much they lied as much as they made political changes to the common prayers.  Where did they "lie" about his existence?

Such is the twist!

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
But it's not. The Chantry lied about Shartan's existence.

Considering two random Sisters on the street are capable of confirming him, it isn't so much they lied as much as they made political changes to the common prayers.  Where did they "lie" about his existence?

Such is the twist!

Aside from the fact that Bioware has made it clear they want to maintain the ambiguity and NOT to come down on one side or the other, confirming any one thing to be the full truth of the matter, you mean?

Having the Chantry turn out to be 100% correct would make all the effort they've spent building the case that there is more to the story than the official Chantry doctrine, to suddenly come out with the idea that the Chantry was absolutely correct all along would invalidate all of that effort, and it would amount to very cheap, very bad, writing.

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I hope it's not the case because it sounds like a lot of people (including you-- "That just happened too many times throughout history, and I bet it's the case here too") are projecting real-world bias into this issue.

Real-world bias is practically inevitable. To avoid it, you'd need someone who had literally no strong feelings one way or the other about religion, or at least Abrahamic ones. Don't try to make it seem like you're less biased than anyone else here personally, either.

As for the OP... Drakon created the Chantry practically ex nihilo without even the slightest input from the long-dead Andraste, so it's reasonably clear that you're rightish already.

It may be possible we may come across another Andrastian Cult that predates the Chantry, and has records of that time. They wouldn't be associated with the Chantry and would point out its faults, while teaching about Andraste from another perspective.

If that happens, I hope they aren't corrupted as the Haven Chantry was over time.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
But it's not. The Chantry lied about Shartan's existence.

Considering two random Sisters on the street are capable of confirming him, it isn't so much they lied as much as they made political changes to the common prayers.  Where did they "lie" about his existence?

Such is the twist!

They confirm that the Canticle of Shartan was put into the Dissonent Verses, the verses the Chantry refuses to teach that were originally part of the Chant of Light, because they are considered too heretical or they don't agree with the doctrine taught in those verses.

The Chantry picks and chooses what parts of the Chant they want to believe, and the Dissonent Verses are proof of this.

[Medhia Nox]

If they reveal the truth of the Chantry - I hope it is close to, exactly or better than presented currently.

It would be the only stance that would take any real "courage" to write.

Anything else I'll just perceive as pandering to the uneducated secular materialist.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 octobre 2013 - 04:31 .

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If they reveal the truth of the Chantry - I hope it is close to, exactly or better than presented currently.

It would be the only stance that would take any real "courage" to write.

Anything else I'll just perceive as pandering to the uneducated secular materialist.

One way that would tie into origins, would actually be ingenius. The writings of Mafarath taken from the Temple of Andraste. Sister Petrine cares a great deal about the truth, and is the one interpreting the cipher. That account could be quite illuminating.

[Navasha]

I personally am not biased for or against the Chantry. However, I also know that history is inevitably written by the "victors". There are two sides to almost every story or point of view, and when you only hear one side, it is invariably skewed. Its not necessarily done with malicious intent, but simply a matter of only one side being preserved through time.

[dragonflight288]

Navasha wrote...

I personally am not biased for or against the Chantry. However, I also know that history is inevitably written by the "victors". There are two sides to almost every story or point of view, and when you only hear one side, it is invariably skewed. Its not necessarily done with malicious intent, but simply a matter of only one side being preserved through time.

Or some things in the history taken out by the victors, things that would paint them in a negative light. The Dwarves did this concerning the survivors of Arlathan they housed, but then killed and didn't put it into the memories. The Chantry did this with the Canticle of Shartan and the Qunari can't admit their practices are amoral.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 14 octobre 2013 - 04:44 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Navasha: Don't take every popular quote at face value. That famous quote is actually often not true.

The victor is quite often maligned in history. I can provide many examples if required.

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

Aside from the fact that Bioware has made it clear they want to maintain the ambiguity and NOT to come down on one side or the other, confirming any one thing to be the full truth of the matter, you mean?

Having the Chantry turn out to be 100% correct would make all the effort they've spent building the case that there is more to the story than the official Chantry doctrine, to suddenly come out with the idea that the Chantry was absolutely correct all along would invalidate all of that effort, and it would amount to very cheap, very bad, writing.

The topic is about "the true past of the Chantry being revealed" or whatnot. 

It would be brilliant, though.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

They confirm that the Canticle of Shartan was put into the Dissonent Verses, the verses the Chantry refuses to teach that were originally part of the Chant of Light, because they are considered too heretical or they don't agree with the doctrine taught in those verses.

The Chantry picks and chooses what parts of the Chant they want to believe, and the Dissonent Verses are proof of this.

But you're acting like they're hiding something.  Two random Sisters let you know this information.  It isn't a secret, and most likely still taught, given that, you know, people on the street know about it.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If they reveal the truth of the Chantry - I hope it is close to, exactly or better than presented currently.

It would be the only stance that would take any real "courage" to write.

Anything else I'll just perceive as pandering to the uneducated secular materialist.

This is patently absurd. It's no more true than doing what you say is pandering to the uneducated religious theist.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

They confirm that the Canticle of Shartan was put into the Dissonent Verses, the verses the Chantry refuses to teach that were originally part of the Chant of Light, because they are considered too heretical or they don't agree with the doctrine taught in those verses.

The Chantry picks and chooses what parts of the Chant they want to believe, and the Dissonent Verses are proof of this.

But you're acting like they're hiding something.  Two random Sisters let you know this information.  It isn't a secret, and most likely still taught, given that, you know, people on the street know about it.

Every large organization is hiding something. From the nobles, to corporations, the merchant's guild, and so on. Why would the Chantry be exempt?

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Every large organization is hiding something. From the nobles, to corporations, the merchant's guild, and so on. Why would the Chantry be exempt?

Oh, they may be hiding something, but not Shartan's verses, which are common enough that two random Sisters on the street know about them.

If the Chantry is hiding anything it would probably be corruption or influence on Orlais' court. :happy:

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Every large organization is hiding something. From the nobles, to corporations, the merchant's guild, and so on. Why would the Chantry be exempt?

Oh, they may be hiding something, but not Shartan's verses, which are common enough that two random Sisters on the street know about them.

If the Chantry is hiding anything it would probably be corruption or influence on Orlais' court. :happy:

They don't teach about Shartan and how he helped Andraste. It was the Chantry that declared that elves should live in Alienages and convert after the sacking of the Dales.

It could just easily be that some higher-ups are racist against elves and don't want to call them equals.

EDIT: Wouldn't surpise me if they are hiding corruption as well. I mean, they are situated in Orlais, the home of "the Game" and the Divine's left hand is a fully trained bard...

Modifié par dragonflight288, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:19 .

[Wulfram]

The Chantry's big secret was that the Templars weren't actually all that loyal to them. And that secret is already out.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

They don't teach about Shartan and how he helped Andraste. It was the Chantry that declared that elves should live in Alienages and convert after the sacking of the Dales.

It could just easily be that some higher-ups are racist against elves and don't want to call them equals.

Instead of complete extermination*.
You're missing that part of it.

Eh, I can't imagine anyone in Dragon Age seeing elves as equals.  Their race has no standing accomplishments (Dwarves & Qunari have too many to list, while any elf accomplishment is a leftover of Arlathan) and any elf pairing with another species ends with a non-elf child.

[Xilizhra]

Instead of complete extermination*.
You're missing that part of it.

So you're saying they'd exterminate the Dalish if they could?

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

They don't teach about Shartan and how he helped Andraste. It was the Chantry that declared that elves should live in Alienages and convert after the sacking of the Dales.

It could just easily be that some higher-ups are racist against elves and don't want to call them equals.

Instead of complete extermination*.
You're missing that part of it.

Eh, I can't imagine anyone in Dragon Age seeing elves as equals.  Their race has no standing accomplishments (Dwarves & Qunari have too many to list, while any elf accomplishment is a leftover of Arlathan) and any elf pairing with another species ends with a non-elf child.

Garahel was an elf, and he ended the fourth blight.

City-elves have tried leaving the alienages to build up shops, but racist humans burn down their homes and drive them back to the alienages.

Elves haven't been given many opportunities to do great things. With all the chaos going on, now is the perfect opportunity.

[Jaison1986]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Garahel was an elf, and he ended the fourth blight.

City-elves have tried leaving the alienages to build up shops, but racist humans burn down their homes and drive them back to the alienages.

Elves haven't been given many opportunities to do great things. With all the chaos going on, now is the perfect opportunity.

Forget about pro mages and pro templars. Let's play an pro elf Inquisitor!

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Garahel was an elf, and he ended the fourth blight.

City-elves have tried leaving the alienages to build up shops, but racist humans burn down their homes and drive them back to the alienages.

Elves haven't been given many opportunities to do great things. With all the chaos going on, now is the perfect opportunity.

Garahel was a Grey Warden who transcended his Elfness.  It isn't a uniquely elf thing, like the Arlathan Mirrors.

And yet they're accepted without question into the City Guard. 

They've had plenty of time, over 700 years, actually. 

[dragonflight288]

Jaison1986 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Garahel was an elf, and he ended the fourth blight.

City-elves have tried leaving the alienages to build up shops, but racist humans burn down their homes and drive them back to the alienages.

Elves haven't been given many opportunities to do great things. With all the chaos going on, now is the perfect opportunity.

Forget about pro mages and pro templars. Let's play an pro elf Inquisitor!

Sounds like a plan!