217 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Garahel was an elf, and he ended the fourth blight.

City-elves have tried leaving the alienages to build up shops, but racist humans burn down their homes and drive them back to the alienages.

Elves haven't been given many opportunities to do great things. With all the chaos going on, now is the perfect opportunity.

Garahel was a Grey Warden who transcended his Elfness.  It isn't a uniquely elf thing, like the Arlathan Mirrors.

And yet they're accepted without question into the City Guard. 

They've had plenty of time, over 700 years, actually. 

And the humans go out of their way to keep them in their place.

Vauhn: They sometimes get the ideas that they're people. We have to put them back into their place.
Tallis: At least in the Qun, we are treated as equals.
Elf in mage origin: Most humans think we can't be anything more than servants.

[Volus Warlord]

I wouldn't mind two or more conflicting accounts. That way, some fans would accept one as gospel, laugh at fans who accept the other as gospel, and refuse to acknowledge what they are actually doing.

[dragonflight288]

Volus Warlord wrote...

I wouldn't mind two or more conflicting accounts. That way, some fans would accept one as gospel, laugh at fans who accept the other as gospel, and refuse to acknowledge what they are actually doing.

I think that both sides have their fair share of dirty laundry. I simply think that the humans have the most to benefit if the elves stay where they are, and don't want the elves to advance.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And the humans go out of their way to keep them in their place.

Vauhn: They sometimes get the ideas that they're people. We have to put them back into their place.
Tallis: At least in the Qun, we are treated as equals.
Elf in mage origin: Most humans think we can't be anything more than servants.

Some humans, yes.  Others allow them to rise up to being personal servants of nobility (that Ferelden Noble in HN Origin, Orlais' Empress).

Yup, to become Qunari is quite an attractive prospect for the City Elves.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
And the humans go out of their way to keep them in their place.

Vauhn: They sometimes get the ideas that they're people. We have to put them back into their place.
Tallis: At least in the Qun, we are treated as equals.
Elf in mage origin: Most humans think we can't be anything more than servants.

Some humans, yes.  Others allow them to rise up to being personal servants of nobility (that Ferelden Noble in HN Origin, Orlais' Empress).

Yup, to become Qunari is quite an attractive prospect for the City Elves.

It is. Shame really, that most human cultures would drive their elves to the Qunari, and then ask why that happened because they've got the Maker.

As for that servant, in the end, she was still just a servant.

the elves can't become shopkeepers, traders, smiths. Heck, they aren't even allowed to have weapons in the alienage.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It is. Shame really, that most human cultures would drive their elves to the Qunari, and then ask why that happened because they've got the Maker.

As for that servant, in the end, she was still just a servant.

the elves can't become shopkeepers, traders, smiths. Heck, they aren't even allowed to have weapons in the alienage.

Eh, the Qunari have a better thing going for them anyway.

Oh, wait, I ripped out that part from my post, lol.

City Elves are perfectly capable of becoming City Guards in Ferelden though, no one bats an eye.

Also, the Female Tabris' Fiance is a smith; he made the wedding bands, if I recall correctly, and one of the elves is a shopkeeper.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

It is. Shame really, that most human cultures would drive their elves to the Qunari, and then ask why that happened because they've got the Maker.

As for that servant, in the end, she was still just a servant.

the elves can't become shopkeepers, traders, smiths. Heck, they aren't even allowed to have weapons in the alienage.

Eh, the Qunari have a better thing going for them anyway.

Oh, wait, I ripped out that part from my post, lol.

City Elves are perfectly capable of becoming City Guards in Ferelden though, no one bats an eye.

Depending on the nation they live in. Ferelden's alienage banned elves from even possessing weapons. Orlais' alienage is considered one of the worst places to live in all of Thedas, and elves there are treated absolutley atrociously.

In fact...in the games themselves, I have yet to see an elf join the city-guard. There's that armed and armored elf helping the Tevinters, but that's Tevinter. It seems to me that everywhere under the White Chantry, elves aren't allowed to rise above servant.

Also, the Female Tabris' Fiance is a smith; he made the wedding bands, if I recall correctly, and one of the elves is a shopkeeper.

But can he set up outside of the alienage and expand his market?

No. Their customer bases are quite limited to fellow elves or the odd human/dwarf who comes into the alienage for whatever reason.

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Aside from the fact that Bioware has made it clear they want to maintain the ambiguity and NOT to come down on one side or the other, confirming any one thing to be the full truth of the matter, you mean?

Having the Chantry turn out to be 100% correct would make all the effort they've spent building the case that there is more to the story than the official Chantry doctrine, to suddenly come out with the idea that the Chantry was absolutely correct all along would invalidate all of that effort, and it would amount to very cheap, very bad, writing.

The topic is about "the true past of the Chantry being revealed" or whatnot. 

It would be brilliant, though.

No, it wouldn't be brilliant at all.  It would be a cop-out after all their effort in writing things to be ambiguous.  Cheap and bad writing, like I said.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't know what "truth" you are expecting to find. The Chantry itself was formed 200 years after Andraste was executed. The Chant of Light was written by Andraste's followers after her death and existed long before that. Shartan was in the Chant of Light and in Chantry canon for over a century, but was removed later. That still doesn't mean he's been forgotten, Chantry priests and scholars openly talk about him in their work. Sister Petrine, a member of the Chantry herself, is even critical of the Chantry policy of removing him from their history in her writings that make up the codex entry on him. She even goes as far as to say "some of us still remember."

There are many different dissonant verses, not all removed for the same reason. I don't think there would be any secret Chantry archive about "the truth," by the time it was formed every version of the Cult of Andraste thought their interpretation was the best one.

The "no men in the clergy" thing is something the White Chantry came up with because it's absent in the Imperial Chantry. Supposedly women are considered the purer sex because men are judged by Maferath's actions.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 octobre 2013 - 06:44 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In my eyes, the only bad thing the magisters did there was to sacrifice hundreds of slaves to get the power to physically enter the Fade. Reaching the Golden City was an ambitious goal, but ambition is not evil, as I cannot repeat often enough, and I see much virtue in the attempt to emancipate humans from their erstwhile deities by claiming powers once thought to be reserved for them. 

If anything, I wish the story to be open to this latter interpretation.

Endless ambition and stealing power, without regards for anything or anyone. Not evil?
Aha....suuuuuurrrrrrre.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except the Magisters thought they were serving their own deities by claiming the power that was allegedly there. Or at least that it was something that the Old Gods themselves were offering them.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 octobre 2013 - 06:57 .

[Reznore57]

Well , the Chantry is obviously biased ,but I also try to see it as a product of its time.
Back when it was created , things seem to have been way different and chaotic.
The Tevinter empire falling to pieces , the Blight ravaging the land with a giant dragon leading an army of monsters etc...

The first to embrace Andraste faith after her death were people from Tevinter , they even went on a witch hunt and killed their most powerful magisters.
The rise of an Inquisition also points at a very chaotic time.
So the whole "stop with the magic " attitude is understandable , it may not be 100% truth but it was probably needed at a time where magisters pushed every limits by mass murdering people to power up their spells.

[Taleroth]

Clearly what Dragon Age needs is to have all the mystery and ambiguity of the setting eliminated.

But only if it conforms to my preferred interpretation.

Modifié par Taleroth, 14 octobre 2013 - 08:10 .

[wcholcombe]

Well, Drakon just formalized everything under an official form that had been practiced by the cult of Andraste since her death. Technically speaking the Imperial Chantry predates the Chantry.

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't know what "truth" you are expecting to find. The Chantry itself was formed 200 years after Andraste was executed. The Chant of Light was written by Andraste's followers after her death and existed long before that. Shartan was in the Chant of Light and in Chantry canon for over a century, but was removed later. That still doesn't mean he's been forgotten, Chantry priests and scholars openly talk about him in their work. Sister Petrine, a member of the Chantry herself, is even critical of the Chantry policy of removing him from their history in her writings that make up the codex entry on him. She even goes as far as to say "some of us still remember."

There are many different dissonant verses, not all removed for the same reason. I don't think there would be any secret Chantry archive about "the truth," by the time it was formed every version of the Cult of Andraste thought their interpretation was the best one.

The "no men in the clergy" thing is something the White Chantry came up with because it's absent in the Imperial Chantry. Supposedly women are considered the purer sex because men are judged by Maferath's actions.[

I actually always got the impression that it was originally part of the Imperial Chantry's doctrine, too, but was changed at some later point for unspecified reasons.

Modifié par Silfren, 14 octobre 2013 - 07:59 .

[Silfren]

wcholcombe wrote...

Well, Drakon just formalized everything under an official form that had been practiced by the cult of Andraste since her death. Technically speaking the Imperial Chantry predates the Chantry.

Did it, though?  We know that the Tevinter Archon Hessarian (supposedly) accepted Andraste's teachings, but that doesn't mean a Chantry sprung up whole cloth immediately thereafter.  All the codices indicate that the Chantry was formed by Emperor Drakon of Orlais, and speaks of later schisms between that Chantry and the Imperial one.  That sounds more like an organization that was of one accord at some early point, not two separate organizations that arose independently of one another.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Depending on the nation they live in. Ferelden's alienage banned elves from even possessing weapons. Orlais' alienage is considered one of the worst places to live in all of Thedas, and elves there are treated absolutley atrociously.

In fact...in the games themselves, I have yet to see an elf join the city-guard. There's that armed and armored elf helping the Tevinters, but that's Tevinter. It seems to me that everywhere under the White Chantry, elves aren't allowed to rise above servant.

But can he set up outside of the alienage and expand his market?

No. Their customer bases are quite limited to fellow elves or the odd human/dwarf who comes into the alienage for whatever reason.

That's because if you give an elf a weapon they'll end up hurting themselves with it.  Look at Tabris; that elf went and got itself killed at Fort Drakon.

Tabris is certainly capable of joining the guard, as are the Dwarves.  The Ferelden Guard do not appear to discriminate on applicants.

I don't believe that question is answered, actually.  And no human tries to stop the Elf family from leaving the Alienage going to Ostagar.

[Senya]

Taleroth wrote...

Clearly what Dragon Age needs is to have all the mystery and ambiguity of the setting eliminated.

But only if it conforms to my preferred interpretation.

You win this thread.

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

No, it wouldn't be brilliant at all.  It would be a cop-out after all their effort in writing things to be ambiguous.  Cheap and bad writing, like I said. 

Everything that was revealed to you was done by malcontents and people who could shape the truth to their will, feeding on your own previous judgments on the situation.

Mmmm, dat potential Bioshock reveal.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well World of Thedas seems to say that one of the earliest issues of contention between the Tevinter and Orlais Chantries was that the Orlesian Chantry refused to recognize the Imperial Grand Clerics because they included men. Tevinter was the first Andrastian nation, and they already seemed to include men in their clergy's ranks by the time Drakon became Emperor of Orlais.

The Imperial Chantry (or what would become the Imperial Chantry) did predate the White Chantry. Apparently the Imperium was the first nation to have organized Andrastianism because of Hesserion's conversion.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 octobre 2013 - 08:18 .

[Reznore57]

Silfren wrote...

Did it, though?  We know that the Tevinter Archon Hessarian (supposedly) accepted Andraste's teachings, but that doesn't mean a Chantry sprung up whole cloth immediately thereafter.  All the codices indicate that the Chantry was formed by Emperor Drakon of Orlais, and speaks of later schisms between that Chantry and the Imperial one.  That sounds more like an organization that was of one accord at some early point, not two separate organizations that arose independently of one another.

Hessarian converted to the cult of Andraste/the Maker .(wasn't named Chantry back then i guess , it seems Andraste disciples were still busy writing the Chant of Light )
Anyway a lot of old god priest and powerful magisters were killed , some  proto circle were created , and non mage had access to priesthood etc...It just lasted a few generation though and the most powerful mages were back to rule Tevinter.

But yeah from the World of Thedas , it's pretty clear the Chantry was born in Tevinter and a century later Drakon took matter in his own hands , putting a female divine in power and spreading the faith everywhere when he conquered lands.

[wcholcombe]

Reznore57 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Did it, though?  We know that the Tevinter Archon Hessarian (supposedly) accepted Andraste's teachings, but that doesn't mean a Chantry sprung up whole cloth immediately thereafter.  All the codices indicate that the Chantry was formed by Emperor Drakon of Orlais, and speaks of later schisms between that Chantry and the Imperial one.  That sounds more like an organization that was of one accord at some early point, not two separate organizations that arose independently of one another.

Hessarian converted to the cult of Andraste/the Maker .(wasn't named Chantry back then i guess , it seems Andraste disciples were still busy writing the Chant of Light )
Anyway a lot of old god priest and powerful magisters were killed , some  proto circle were created , and non mage had access to priesthood etc...It just lasted a few generation though and the most powerful mages were back to rule Tevinter.

But yeah from the World of Thedas , it's pretty clear the Chantry was born in Tevinter and a century later Drakon took matter in his own hands , putting a female divine in power and spreading the faith everywhere when he conquered lands.

Yeah I believe Archons were originally the head of the faith in Tevinter and than they changed it.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Depending on the nation they live in. Ferelden's alienage banned elves from even possessing weapons. Orlais' alienage is considered one of the worst places to live in all of Thedas, and elves there are treated absolutley atrociously.

In fact...in the games themselves, I have yet to see an elf join the city-guard. There's that armed and armored elf helping the Tevinters, but that's Tevinter. It seems to me that everywhere under the White Chantry, elves aren't allowed to rise above servant.

But can he set up outside of the alienage and expand his market?

No. Their customer bases are quite limited to fellow elves or the odd human/dwarf who comes into the alienage for whatever reason.

That's because if you give an elf a weapon they'll end up hurting themselves with it.  Look at Tabris; that elf went and got itself killed at Fort Drakon.

Tabris is certainly capable of joining the guard, as are the Dwarves.  The Ferelden Guard do not appear to discriminate on applicants.

I don't believe that question is answered, actually.  And no human tries to stop the Elf family from leaving the Alienage going to Ostagar.

I cannot tell if you're trolling or not. Elves are just as capable as humans and dwarves are. Give an elf a sword, you have as much chance of them hurting themselves with it as a human or a dwarf. I also dislike you referring to Tabris as an 'it' and not a person.

Tabris isn't allowed to join the guard, despite his/her capability, because of his hertiage as an elf.

As for Ostagar, not a single elf fought. Not one. They were there as servants and messengers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Cult of Andraste existed throughout Thedas but Tevinter was the first place where it was an organized state religion. At the time the Archon was the head of the church. A century later Drakon declared Divine Justina the head of the Chantry. The Imperial Clerics weren't happy about this but they went along with it until the schism. The Archon's role was reduced in deference to the Divine and the Grand Clerics tried to gain recognition from Val Royeaux but failed. A couple centuries of tension later, the Black Divine and thus the Imperial Chantry was born in the schism.

[aries1001]

Didn't the Tevinter Magisters enter the Fade in order to achieve the power of the gods - promised to them from (the old god) Dumat? At least that what I learned during my playthrough of Legacy (DA2 DLC) and the thing Corypheus says at the end suggest that the Golden City in the Sky was already balck when they got there. Why it already was black is a guess we'd have to make; my favorite reasons are these:

1) The tevinter magisters used so much blood magic to open up the fade that the golden city turned black
2) The Maker (whomever he or she is) built the Golden City in the Fade, but over time it corrupted into Blackness, and became the Black City. And then the Maker left the Fade
3) The Maker is really an old God, maybe even Dumat?, or The Maker is Fen'Harel who out of spite or just because he/she got bored one day decided to make the Fade and a Golden City, then someone or something he/she didn't anticipate happens. And the Golden City goes black and Fen'Harel tries to repair the damage, but in the process the elven City of Arlathan sinks (or possibly is liffted into the Fade? and becomes the Golden/Black City). Anyone else notice the similarities to the Wizard of Oz here, Emerald City, Golden Brick Road etc. etc. and the torn veil? If this is so, we're back to one of the more humorous explanations, also one of the most overused
ones, though: A wizard did it....

And the wizard (mage) could be Flemeth, Corypheus or maybe even Sandal...

We shall see, we shall see...