217 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aveline explicitly says otherwise to Merrill. 

What does she say precisely? And why doesn't the game actually back it up with Alienages that actually are stables and outbuildings? 

I explained above, since I was addressing elves in human villages... in response to a line about elves living in human villages.

EntropicAngel wrote...

And why doesn't the game actually back it up with Alienages that actually are stables and outbuildings? 

Because you clearly ignored the post I was responding to - that's why.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 16 octobre 2013 - 03:26 .

[myahele]

On the 1st floor o the cult of andraste church they habe that weird statue that you only see in the fade or other anciente establishments....

Otherwise, everything else is usual chantry statues.

It was also stated by brother givenchy that there cult predates the chantry...

[Fardreamer]

Br3ad wrote...

I couldn't careless one way or the other. The Chantry and it's doctrine matter almost nothing to me. If we learn anything, I hope that it's very insignificant.

Every post you make is how you don't care about something or how you think someone's ideas are stupid.  Get over yourself, champ.

On Topic:

I'm in the camp that Andraste was actually an immensly powerful mage.  If that's ever revealed somehow, it would turn the Templars and Chantry on its head.  Whether or not the Maker is real is a non-issue for me.  Having something that created all the denizens of the Fade and Thedas seems a little far fetched.  It seems more likely, that whatever is known as the Maker is an immensely powerful Spirit.

[Jaison1986]

Fardreamer wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I couldn't careless one way or the other. The Chantry and it's doctrine matter almost nothing to me. If we learn anything, I hope that it's very insignificant.

Every post you make is how you don't care about something or how you think someone's ideas are stupid.  Get over yourself, champ.

On Topic:

I'm in the camp that Andraste was actually an immensly powerful mage.  If that's ever revealed somehow, it would turn the Templars and Chantry on its head.  Whether or not the Maker is real is a non-issue for me.  Having something that created all the denizens of the Fade and Thedas seems a little far fetched.  It seems more likely, that whatever is known as the Maker is an immensely powerful Spirit.

Now that you mentioned, there is this really interesting theory people cooked up that not only Andraste was an mage, but that also, the Maker is actually an very powerfull fade spirit, and either he tricked her into thinking he was an deity or she knew the spirit was just an spirit and tricked her followers into thinking they had god himself at their side (wich would help rallying people more easily). And the powers that the chantry said the Maker gave to Andraste in order to fight the Tevinter, was in fact the spirit making Andraste an spirit healer. It makes a lot of sense, since spirit healers aways had this "holy" feel behind them.

[MisterJB]

Personally, I don't like the idea that Andraste was a mage. Not because of what it would do the Chantry but because of what it would do to the spirits of every non-mage in Thedas. As of now, Andraste stands as proof that they do not need to be ruled and opressed by mages, that they can fight back.
If Andraste was a mage, it would suddenly become another case of the poor, defenseless, defective non-mages being helped by a good mage who lowered herself to do it.
And, frankly, mages already have a big enough role in the games; there is no need to make yet another famous figure a mage.

Could Andraste have been a mage? It's possible but it's just as possible she was simply a charismatic and intelligent normal woman who rallied her people and took advantage of natural disasters striking the Imperium. It's probrably better if they keep it ambiguous.

And no, I don't actually care about the implications it would have for the Chantry since I never supported the Templars out of faith but out of rationality. Even if Andraste was a mage, it doesn't change the fact restrictions are necessary for the mages of today

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 octobre 2013 - 12:40 .

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I don't like the idea that Andraste was a mage. Not because of what it would do the Chantry but because of what it would do to the spirits of every non-mage in Thedas. As of now, Andraste stands as proof that they do not need to be ruled and opressed by mages, that they can fight back.
If Andraste was a mage, it would suddenly become another case of the poor, defenseless, defective non-mages being helped by a good mage who lowered herself to do it.

And, more tellingly, that if the Imperium had put her in one of their Circles, she never would have risen to begin with... it makes you think, I daresay. Or it would if you A. thought, and B. hadn't blocked me.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 octobre 2013 - 12:47 .

[Wulfram]

I'd find Andraste being a mage a bit of a cheap way of subverting the mage/templar debate. And I say that as someone who is fairly firmly on the Mage side of the argument.

[Xilizhra]

Wulfram wrote...

I'd find Andraste being a mage a bit of a cheap way of subverting the mage/templar debate. And I say that as someone who is fairly firmly on the Mage side of the argument.

Personally, I think it helps in balancing the rather wonky historical perspective, as well as taking any wind out of the sails of that idiotic "mages are still being blamed because of the Black City thing" mindset.

[MisterJB]

Wulfram wrote...

I'd find Andraste being a mage a bit of a cheap way of subverting the mage/templar debate. And I say that as someone who is fairly firmly on the Mage side of the argument.

This too.
"Oh, the prophet of the Templars was actually a mage. WHAT A TWIST."

[azarhal]

What if in the time of Andraste everyone was less-or-more a mage? Merrill did say that there was a time where all elves had the gift, why not humans?

[Medhia Nox]

@Morocco Mole: Don't forget dwarven.

The story of the Ash Warriors tell you about Luthias Dwarfson is VERY similar.

Including a character who bears a nearly identical name to the modern (in game terms) Morrigan.

Scaea - is a feisty female who marries an Alamarii warlord and teaches him a great secret.

Morrighan'an - chieftess that seduces Luthias away from Scaea

Luthias - betrays Scaea for this Morrighan'an chick

------

Andraste - the wife of an Alamarri warlord who learns a great secret and shares it with the world.

The Maker (would be Morrighan'an in this tale - now THAT would be a twist) - loves Andraste (by evidence of bending to her will). Curses Mefarath when he betrays Andraste.

Mefarath - loves Andraste and betrays her.

----

And now... for the legend of Flemeth:

Flemeth: Harbors a "secret talent for magic" Curses Connabar.

Connabar: Bann who falls in love with her. "Curses" her when she betrays him.

Osen: Captures Flemeth's heart.

====

Methinks there's a game being played across Thedas.

Flemeth even acknowledges it openly - and mocks the warden for playing into Morrighan'an... err... Morrigan's plot.

She is so much MORE intrigued - when you say you're not playing.

NOTE: Anyone want to help me with an elf story that mirrors these three? I can't stand the elves - so I don't read most of their stuff.

The story would require these universal themes:

Three characters. 
One character is loved by the other two.
A betrayal.
Secret knoweldge of some form.
Probably a battle, or war.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 16 octobre 2013 - 02:22 .

[wcholcombe]

Why does there have to be a secret history to the chantry? It isn't like recorded history doesn't exist from that time period. The Tevinter imperium at the very least has written records from those times. It has only been about a thousand years, and we have a pretty good record of what was going on in the world a 1000 years ago.

[Dave of Canada]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Example: How many of you were truly satisfied by the Reaper reveal in ME3?

I was.

Everyone was clamoring and hoping they'd discover the origins of the Reapers but their tunes changed as soon as ME3 hit, it was pretty funny.

[Fardreamer]

I dunno, a lot of plot twists are actually things people see coming a long way away. Like Harry is the 7th Horocrux type of thing. That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. Just because the writers couldn't completely blindside you with a satisfying twist doesn't discredit it. The Andraste was a mage thing just seems to fit very well, and would be the answer to a lot of the current problems facing the Chantry and Mages. Andraste's main teaching of "Magic is meant to serve mankind, and never to rule over him." makes much more sense coming from the lips of a mage.

I don't think it belittles people who weren't mages either. There's plenty of heroes in Thedas who aren't mages. Shartaan, Dane, the heroes of the previous blights, and the Qunari are completely apart from the Chantry and they despise magic.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'd find Andraste being a mage a bit of a cheap way of subverting the mage/templar debate. And I say that as someone who is fairly firmly on the Mage side of the argument.

This too.
"Oh, the prophet of the Templars was actually a mage. WHAT A TWIST."

It wouldn't be that big of a twist considering there's already a lot of evidence that supports the theory. A book in Orzammar that appears to have survived an attempt to be burnt, detailing that Andraste could have been a mage. The riddle game in the Gauntlet mentions Andraste would meditate for days on end, and we have an item in the game that details a mage who would go into the Fade for days on end, and ended up getting buried alive because some people saw his body and thought he was dead.

And, in the temple of Andraste, built by those who knew her personally, the statue they built of her did not have her holding a bowl or holding a sword like all the statues the Chantry erects of her. Nope. They had this.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-10.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-11.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-12.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-13.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-14.png....my blasted computer isn't letting me upload the picture, so I'll simply provide a link.

http://images4.wikia...acred_Ashes.jpg

Those who knew her personally (and if your cunning is high enough, you can get the Guardian to admit he was one of those followers who brought her up the mountain, and he knew her personally) built the statue to have the flame in her hand in a rather convenient place....for mages.
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-4.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-5.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-6.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-7.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-8.pngfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Wildcat/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-9.png

[dragonflight288]

blasted computer....

Double post.

Here's a link to the picture of Andraste holding a flame in her hand standing over her own ashes.

http://images4.wikia...acred_Ashes.jpg

EDIT: I'm trying again.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 16 octobre 2013 - 03:57 .

[MisterJB]

Fardreamer wrote...

I dunno, a lot of plot twists are actually things people see coming a long way away. Like Harry is the 7th Horocrux type of thing. That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. Just because the writers couldn't completely blindside you with a satisfying twist doesn't discredit it. The Andraste was a mage thing just seems to fit very well, and would be the answer to a lot of the current problems facing the Chantry and Mages.

That is the thing. It's not a matter of whether people saw it coming or not. It's a matter of it being used to introduce a new topic into the templar/mage debate that, ideally, should have no influence on it.
It's just like solving this conflict by making everyone a mage or destroying magic; it's cheap. How do we make thedosians like mages? Simple, we make Andraste a mage even tough, realistically, whether she was a mage doesn't change the fact magic is dangerous and should be controlled.
The current problems facing the Chantry and the Mages should be solved by methods that apply to Thedas today and answer the needs of both sides which would make for good, realistic storytelling; having it be decided because someone a thousand years dead had one particular genetic code is just cheating.

Andraste's main teaching of "Magic is meant to serve mankind, and never to rule over him." makes much more sense coming from the lips of a mage.

Why?
If you want to shut up the Chantry or something by making Andraste a mage that wanted to help people, that is something I can understand.
But it doesn't make any more sense for those words to come from a mage.

I don't think it belittles people who weren't mages either. There's plenty of heroes in Thedas who aren't mages. Shartaan, Dane, the heroes of the previous blights, and the Qunari are completely apart from the Chantry and they despise magic.

Of course it does; if so, it would mean that non-mages had been worshipping a mage for a millenia. What is more belittling than that? 

[Reznore57]

I was thinking ...the first to really go wild with Andraste teaching was Hessarian , he also went on a witch trial , and give non mage a place in Tevinter society.

He is seen as a disciple of Andraste , (when all he did was kill her , kind of strange...).
The Archon could have made up the whole "magic is ment to serve blablabla " because he wanted to get rid of the magisters back then?
It just could have been a political move , really.

[dragonflight288]

That is the thing. It's not a matter of whether people saw it coming or not. It's a matter of it being used to introduce a new topic into the templar/mage debate that, ideally, should have no influence on it.
It's just like solving this conflict by making everyone a mage or destroying magic; it's cheap. How do we make thedosians like mages? Simple, we make Andraste a mage even tough, realistically, whether she was a mage doesn't change the fact magic is dangerous and should be controlled.
The current problems facing the Chantry and the Mages should be solved by methods that apply to Thedas today and answer the needs of both sides which would make for good, realistic storytelling; having it be decided because someone a thousand years dead had one particular genetic code is just cheating.

How is it cheating? How does Andraste being a mage take away the dangers of magic? It's already established that demons prey on mages more often than they do non-mages (not that they don't prey on them, they do, just nowhere near as often.)

All it would mean is that the Chantry was either wrong about something, or actively covered the truth up, at least at the beginning, and they may not know now.

Sister Petrine alludes to this attitude in Origins, talking about how she questions the authenticity of some of the Chantry's most holy artifacts, and believes there's a seduction of the Divine going on.

ips of a mage.


Why?
If you want to shut up the Chantry or something by making Andraste a mage that wanted to help people, that is something I can understand.
But it doesn't make any more sense for those words to come from a mage.

Perhaps. But some templars and the Chantry do have a history of overdoing it, and keeping mages out of helping out with anything.

Of course it does; if so, it would mean that non-mages had been worshipping a mage for a millenia. What is more belittling than that?

Why on earth would it be belittling? Say the Maker did choose her to be his prophet, and his bride, and that story is true. Why would her being a mage change the truth about what the Chant of Light already teaches? It wouldn't be belittling. Instead, it would a pill very hard to swallow by those who hate mages, but it still wouldn't change the truth of the doctrine.

[MisterJB]

If we assume that the Guardian built that particular statue in that particular way in order to symbolize a power Andraste actually possessed; that of creating fire; because he has insight into her that we do not, then we must also consider the possiblity that the Maker is 100% real because the Guardian; who, like you said, has met Andraste; believes that it was Him who aided Andraste.
Plus, there are also statues of women in robes holding shields who might represent Andraste.

So, what does this mean? Maybe everything, maybe nothing.
Maybe the Guardian just built it in that way because Andraste was burned and fire is an important part of the Andrastean religion; maybe the Maker was a spirit that gave Andraste magic like what happened with Lady Harriman; maybe Andraste was a mage all along and the people around her came up with the Maker because they couldn't accept receiving help from one of the hated magic-users.

Who knows?

[dragonflight288]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

If we assume that the Guardian built that particular statue in that particular way in order to symbolize a power Andraste actually possessed; that of creating fire; because he has insight into her that we do not, then we must also consider the possiblity that the Maker is 100% real because the Guardian; who, like you said, has met Andraste; believes that it was Him who aided Andraste.
Plus, there are also statues of women in robes holding shields who might represent Andraste.[/quote]

The statue I showed is directly over her urn of Ashes. The ashes is directly in front of that particular statue. Who can that statue be BUT Andraste?

And who knows, why can't she have been a mage AND aided by the Maker?

[quote]So, what does this mean? Maybe everything, maybe nothing.
Maybe the Guardian just built it in that way because Andraste was burned and fire is an important part of the Andrastean religion; maybe the Maker was a spirit that gave Andraste magic like what happened with Lady Harriman; maybe Andraste was a mage all along and the people around her came up with the Maker because they couldn't accept receiving help from one of the hated magic-users.

Who knows?[/quote][/quote]

Possibly. I actually would prefer it if the truth remained ambiguous.