217 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
How is it cheating? How does Andraste being a mage take away the dangers of magic? It's already established that demons prey on mages more often than they do non-mages (not that they don't prey on them, they do, just nowhere near as often.)

All it would mean is that the Chantry was either wrong about something, or actively covered the truth up, at least at the beginning, and they may not know now.

Sister Petrine alludes to this attitude in Origins, talking about how she questions the authenticity of some of the Chantry's most holy artifacts, and believes there's a seduction of the Divine going on.

Andraste being a mage wouldn't change anything regarding the dangers of magic. Honestly, I can come up with arguments against it on the spot.
"Andraste was one good mage, the Magisters of Tevinter numbered in the hundreds. Therefore, we shouldn't risk mages becoming like the Magisters and not Andraste."

But it's inevitable that pro-mages would latch on this and it is simply one easy way of solving the debate without actually...well, solving it because if Andraste was a mage, the writers can simply write that this made the thedosians reconsider their stance even if, realistically and logically, there would be no reason for them to instead of, say, having to actually come up with ways the mages and normals can coexist.
It would be cheating, plain and simple.

Why on earth would it be belittling? Say the Maker did choose her to be his prophet, and his bride, and that story is true. Why would her being a mage change the truth about what the Chant of Light already teaches? It wouldn't be belittling. Instead, it would a pill very hard to swallow by those who hate mages, but it still wouldn't change the truth of the doctrine.

Non-mages worshipping a mage for a thousand years much like the Magisters wish to be worshipped. Non-mages being unable to free themselves without the help of a mage.
I'm not sure how to be more clear than this.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The statue I showed is directly over her urn of Ashes. The ashes is directly in front of that particular statue. Who can that statue be BUT Andraste?

And who knows, why can't she have been a mage AND aided by the Maker?

I'm sure it is Andraste but it doesn't necessarely mean that it is meant to represent out she could conjure fire. It is suggesting, I'll give you that much, but it's not irrefutable evidence. There is a lot of fire in the Andrastean religion.

And I think that the whole point of making Andraste a mage would be; besides Pro-mages "sticking it" to the Chantry; to neatly explain why she had powers and why the Maker didn't just save her from burning and why the Maker didn't just snap His holy and omnipotent fingers and bring Tevinter down.

Possibly. I actually would prefer it if the truth remained ambiguous.

Me too.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 octobre 2013 - 04:40 .

[Johnny_TYS38]

@MisterJB

It can also prove to people that mages can be like andraste, helping other people and standing up against the tevinter imperium. Not all mages will become like the magister, dangerous and corrupted 

Modifié par Johnny_TYS38, 16 octobre 2013 - 04:46 .

[dragonflight288]

But it's inevitable that pro-mages would latch on this and it is simply one easy way of solving the debate without actually...well, solving it because if Andraste was a mage, the writers can simply write that this made the thedosians reconsider their stance even if, realistically and logically, there would be no reason for them to instead of, say, having to actually come up with ways the mages and normals can coexist.
It would be cheating, plain and simple.

Now that's simply being dismissive. I never once claimed Andraste being a mage would solve the problems. I simply have stated that there is evidence of her being a mage, and if she is then it would make the Chantry and templars look bad considering their attitudes towards mages.

Her being a mage doesn't really remove the risk of demons wanting to prey on mages, nor does it remove the need that mages need to learn to control their powers, which seem to be largely governed by their emotions if the training we see enchanters putting apprentices through in the mag origin is anything to go by.

[wcholcombe]

I really don't think people would find Andraste being a mage as being that earth shattering. There has probably always been supposition that she was a mage based off of the affects of her singing. The core tenant of the Chantry is still the same, Magic is meant to serve man not rule over him. It doesn't matter that Andraste could use magic. Now, I do think some of the current interpretation of more hard line templars does jive with that, but there are plenty of templars we have seen that were fair minded about mages and doing their jobs, as opposed to the hate filled caracatures we often get as antagonists.

[dragonflight288]

wcholcombe wrote...

I really don't think people would find Andraste being a mage as being that earth shattering. There has probably always been supposition that she was a mage based off of the affects of her singing. The core tenant of the Chantry is still the same, Magic is meant to serve man not rule over him. It doesn't matter that Andraste could use magic. Now, I do think some of the current interpretation of more hard line templars does jive with that, but there are plenty of templars we have seen that were fair minded about mages and doing their jobs, as opposed to the hate filled caracatures we often get as antagonists.

I agree with this.

Like I said earlier, if Andraste actually was a mage, it would be a very hard pill for some of the more extremist factions of the Chantry to swallow, and it may affect the interpretation of the line "magic is meant to serve man" but it does nothing to change the core principles of the Chant or the truth of its doctrine...should the story be true. *shrug*

[MisterJB]

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

@MisterJB

It can also prove to people that mages can be like andraste, helping other people and standing up against the tevinter imperium. Not all mages will become like the magister, dangerous and corrupted 

Assuming that Andraste was a mage, she was still just one mage. There were hundreds of Magisters.
Those are not very encouraging numbers regarding the morality of mages.

[wcholcombe]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But it's inevitable that pro-mages would latch on this and it is simply one easy way of solving the debate without actually...well, solving it because if Andraste was a mage, the writers can simply write that this made the thedosians reconsider their stance even if, realistically and logically, there would be no reason for them to instead of, say, having to actually come up with ways the mages and normals can coexist.
It would be cheating, plain and simple.

Now that's simply being dismissive. I never once claimed Andraste being a mage would solve the problems. I simply have stated that there is evidence of her being a mage, and if she is then it would make the Chantry and templars look bad considering their attitudes towards mages.

Her being a mage doesn't really remove the risk of demons wanting to prey on mages, nor does it remove the need that mages need to learn to control their powers, which seem to be largely governed by their emotions if the training we see enchanters putting apprentices through in the mag origin is anything to go by.

How would it make them look bad considering their attitudes on Magic.  They could simply state that Andraste served her people against the Tevinter Magisters in the same way that magic is meant to serve and not rule.  The chantry has never claimed that mages haven't been beneficial to Thedas, just that mages and the people need to be protected from the dangers magic presents.

[Johnny_TYS38]

MisterJB wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

@MisterJB

It can also prove to people that mages can be like andraste, helping other people and standing up against the tevinter imperium. Not all mages will become like the magister, dangerous and corrupted 

Assuming that Andraste was a mage, she was still just one mage. There were hundreds of Magisters.
Those are not very encouraging numbers regarding the morality of mages.

'
Then how can you assume that the newborn mages will end up being exactly like the magisters? Given the history of the tevinter imperium, of course mages born there will most likely become what the magister used to be. On the other hand, there are also mages that are not born in the imperium. So you cannot really tell if those mages will end up become like the magisters. 

[MisterJB]

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...
Then how can you assume that the newborn mages will end up being exactly like the magisters? Given the history of the tevinter imperium, of course mages born there will most likely become what the magister used to be. On the other hand, there are also mages that are not born in the imperium. So you cannot really tell if those mages will end up become like the magisters. 

I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that even if Andraste was a mage, that doesn't change the fact that the number of mages who chose to be Magisters vastly outnumber her.
This means that magic and its users should be regulated through special restrictions.

[Johnny_TYS38]

MisterJB wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...
Then how can you assume that the newborn mages will end up being exactly like the magisters? Given the history of the tevinter imperium, of course mages born there will most likely become what the magister used to be. On the other hand, there are also mages that are not born in the imperium. So you cannot really tell if those mages will end up become like the magisters. 

I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that even if Andraste was a mage, that doesn't change the fact that the number of mages who chose to be Magisters vastly outnumber her.
This means that magic and its users should be regulated through special restrictions.

What I am trying to say is that assuming if andraste is a mage, it will just show that the chantry as a whole is a hypocritical organisation. Why are they afraid of revaling such an improtant information to public? Because it will contridicate with what the chantry have been doing for many years, keeping mages under their thumb. The various quote of andrsate might have a different meaning and it was twisted to suit the chantry's agenda 

[dragonflight288]

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...
Then how can you assume that the newborn mages will end up being exactly like the magisters? Given the history of the tevinter imperium, of course mages born there will most likely become what the magister used to be. On the other hand, there are also mages that are not born in the imperium. So you cannot really tell if those mages will end up become like the magisters. 

I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that even if Andraste was a mage, that doesn't change the fact that the number of mages who chose to be Magisters vastly outnumber her.
This means that magic and its users should be regulated through special restrictions.

What I am trying to say is that assuming if andraste is a mage, it will just show that the chantry as a whole is a hypocritical organisation. Why are they afraid of revaling such an improtant information to public? Because it will contridicate with what the chantry have been doing for many years, keeping mages under their thumb. The various quote of andrsate might have a different meaning and it was twisted to suit the chantry's agenda 

The Dissonent Verses prove this. The Dissonent Verses are verses that were originally in the chant of light, written by Andraste, but they are not taught by the Chantry because they are considered too radical or heretical for their idealogy.

[wcholcombe]

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...
Then how can you assume that the newborn mages will end up being exactly like the magisters? Given the history of the tevinter imperium, of course mages born there will most likely become what the magister used to be. On the other hand, there are also mages that are not born in the imperium. So you cannot really tell if those mages will end up become like the magisters. 

I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that even if Andraste was a mage, that doesn't change the fact that the number of mages who chose to be Magisters vastly outnumber her.
This means that magic and its users should be regulated through special restrictions.

What I am trying to say is that assuming if andraste is a mage, it will just show that the chantry as a whole is a hypocritical organisation. Why are they afraid of revaling such an improtant information to public? Because it will contridicate with what the chantry have been doing for many years, keeping mages under their thumb. The various quote of andrsate might have a different meaning and it was twisted to suit the chantry's agenda 

I don't think the Chantry has a history of abusing mages. I think there are some hard liners that have come to the front recently, and I am sure the Schism with the Imperial Chantry hasn't helped matters in this regard.  However, mages still recieve better education than all but the richest nobles, they have access to a wealth of knowledge and research, and until recently enjoyed quite a bit of freedom to come and go between different towers once they became a circle mage.  The idea that the mages have always been treated in the manner of DA2 and Asunder is ridiculous.  It is a recent developement.  Also, the circle towers and such don't exist because of Tevinter Magisters, Tevinter invinted the circles for crying out loud.  The Circle towers exist because hedge wizards/wildlings/apostates were going crazy/becoming abominations/ wreaking havoc on the people of thedas.  Also, the circle towers were created to give mages a safe place where they wouldn't be killed by the general populace afraid they would become an abomination.

There are a lot of things associated with the fear of Magic in Thedas and its dangers that have all of jack to do with the Chantry.  The general public of thedas is an uneducated illiterate mass, they don't need to hear more than once about the kid who became a mage and burned his family alive before they fear magic.  Also, being the uneducated superstitious lot they are, they blame bad events--famine drought crop failure--on magic.

[azarhal]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Dissonent Verses prove this. The Dissonent Verses are verses that were originally in the chant of light, written by Andraste, but they are not taught by the Chantry because they are considered too radical or heretical for their idealogy.

The Dissonent Verses were not written by Andraste. Some were written by Shartan (removed after the war with the Dales), some by Maferath (not hard to tell when they were removed) and their might be others we haven't heard of yet...

[Reznore57]

I don't think Andraste wrote anything , no?
From what I gather her disciples wrote them after her death .
Usualy prophets just ...well...talk a lot.(though I guess maybe she sang ^^ , maybe The Chant of Light used to be a musical . )

[wcholcombe]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...
Then how can you assume that the newborn mages will end up being exactly like the magisters? Given the history of the tevinter imperium, of course mages born there will most likely become what the magister used to be. On the other hand, there are also mages that are not born in the imperium. So you cannot really tell if those mages will end up become like the magisters. 

I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that even if Andraste was a mage, that doesn't change the fact that the number of mages who chose to be Magisters vastly outnumber her.
This means that magic and its users should be regulated through special restrictions.

What I am trying to say is that assuming if andraste is a mage, it will just show that the chantry as a whole is a hypocritical organisation. Why are they afraid of revaling such an improtant information to public? Because it will contridicate with what the chantry have been doing for many years, keeping mages under their thumb. The various quote of andrsate might have a different meaning and it was twisted to suit the chantry's agenda 

The Dissonent Verses prove this. The Dissonent Verses are verses that were originally in the chant of light, written by Andraste, but they are not taught by the Chantry because they are considered too radical or heretical for their idealogy.

Careful here, we don't actually know what all the dissonent verses say.  The only two we even know of don't contradict anything else in the Chantry.  One is the canticle of Shartan which was stricken after the elves sacked Val Royale, and the other is Canticle of Silence which we don't know when was stricken, but again doesn't contradict anything the chantry teaches it just talks about the old gods being inprisoned dragons.

[Wulfram]

The dissonant verses are a pretty direct shout out to the apocryphal gospels, I think.

Most obviously the Canticle of Maferath and the Gospel of Judas

[Reznore57]

I think the Maferath verses sort of points out that the death of Andraste was more or less plan as a divine scheme.

[LobselVith8]

Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think Andraste wrote anything , no? 

Some verses of the Chant of Light are credited by Andraste, which I think was Dragon's point.

As for the revelation that Andraste might be a mage (from "The Search for the True Prophet "), I think it would have ramifications with the dominant anti-mage religion that's vilified magic and mages for the better part of a millennia. The contrast with non-Andrastian societies where magic is accepted (like it is among the Dalish and the Rivaini) makes it clear to me that the Chantry plays a part in the perception of magic and mages among religious Andrastians, from labeling magic as a 'curse' (as some Andrastian characters do in both games) to blaming mages for the Blights (their version of original sin).

I'm not sure how the Circle mages would react to the news. Things seemed bleak for them with the Chantry controlled Circles. Mages committing suicide (as Anders mentioned from his experience at the Circle of Ferelden) or running away, even at the risk of being killed gave me a grim look at the institutions. Perhaps it would be received positively by the faithful who wield magic.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 16 octobre 2013 - 05:46 .

[azarhal]

Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think Andraste wrote anything , no?
From what I gather her disciples wrote them after her death .
Usualy prophets just ...well...talk a lot.(though I guess maybe she sang ^^ , maybe The Chant of Light used to be a musical . )

There are verses writtten in first person called Andraste, but she is also a Christ allegory, so...

I'm voting for most of the Chant to have been written 30+ years after her death. A good example is Transfigurations section. The period when Hessarian transformrf the Tevinter Imperium (by banning the Old God worshiping violently) is called Transfiguration.

As for being a musical, Threnodies.

[Wulfram]

Reznore57 wrote...

I think the Maferath verses sort of points out that the death of Andraste was more or less plan as a divine scheme.

Well it makes that claim.  There's no particular reason to believe it.

[Reznore57]

Wulfram wrote...


Well it makes that claim.  There's no particular reason to believe it.

Sure .
But there's also no reason to believe that a God was talking to Andraste.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think Andraste being a mage really changes anything about the message of the Chant of Light. Magic is dangerous, and it was never the Chantry's perspective that all mages are evil. For a while I'd actually thought that she was a mage even in Chantry dogma. To the Chantry she's their prophet first and whatever else second.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 16 octobre 2013 - 05:56 .

[dragonflight288]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think Andraste wrote anything , no? [/quote]

Some verses of the Chant of Light are credited by Andraste, which I think was Dragon's point. [/quote]

It was. Thanks.

[quote]As for the revelation that Andraste might be a mage (from "The Search for the True Prophet "), I think it would have ramifications with the dominant anti-mage religion that's vilified magic and mages for the better part of a millennia. The contrast with non-Andrastian societies where magic is accepted (like it is among the Dalish and the Rivaini) makes it clear to me that the Chantry plays a part in the perception of magic and mages among religious Andrastians, from labeling magic as a 'curse' (as some Andrastian characters do in both games) to blaming mages for the Blights (their version of original sin).

I'm not sure how the Circle mages would react to the news. Things seemed bleak for them with the Chantry controlled Circles. Mages committing suicide (as Anders mentioned from his experience at the Circle of Ferelden) or running away, even at the risk of being killed gave me a grim look at the institutions. Perhaps it would be received positively by the faithful who wield magic.[/quote][/quote]

It would be fascinating to see how people react, from the faithful among the mages, to the moderate templars, to the extremist factions.

It wouldn't be prettty, but it would be revealing.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 16 octobre 2013 - 06:49 .

[Fardreamer]

The Chantry currently teaches that magic is a curse of the Maker. If it was revealed that Andraste was actually a mage that would remove the stigma that all mages are cursed, evil creatures. It would reform the Circle. No longer would the Templars view the mages as hated, dangerous prisoners, but they would fulfill the duty the Order was originally created for: to both protect the mages from Demons and protect others from mages who have trouble controlling their power.