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[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chant of Light says that magic is a gift from the Maker that mages shouldn't abuse like the Tevinter Magisters. It does not say that Mages are inherently cursed and evil. Andraste was the Bride of the Maker, at least in the Chantry's eyes, so if she were a mage she could just as easily be considered the exception to the rules.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 octobre 2013 - 02:56 .

[dragonflight288]

Fardreamer wrote...

The Chantry currently teaches that magic is a curse of the Maker. If it was revealed that Andraste was actually a mage that would remove the stigma that all mages are cursed, evil creatures. It would reform the Circle. No longer would the Templars view the mages as hated, dangerous prisoners, but they would fulfill the duty the Order was originally created for: to both protect the mages from Demons and protect others from mages who have trouble controlling their power.

In an ideal world, certainly.

But the templars have centuries of dogma ingrained in them from birth, and many of them have come to accept that they have authority over mages by divine right, and fully expect that power over mages. Others are so paranoid at what the concept of what a free mage may represent that they cannot fathom any other system, and react violently to any talks of change or granting mages more rights.

If it were revealed Andraste was a mage, I have a feeling those templars/chantry priests would reject the news out of hand, even if undeniable proof was given, because it would mean that everything they have come to believe about their authority over mages and magic is in need of serious reconsideration. Not everyone would be able to handle it maturely or accept it.

Many, I believe, would riot or seek to destroy any and all evidence of it.

I also think that many mages would use this fact as a rallying cry (libertarians) to completely remove any need of a Circle at all, and would also revolt against any sort of Circle system in place (although that's already happened, with the mages declaring independence.) Many mages would try to use that to say they are blessed. Some, like Tahrone, would feel justified to recreate Tevinter in their own way, saying they are following Andraste's way of waging war.

If Andraste were revealed to be a mage, I think what ultimately would happen is far more chaos than there already is.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Chant of Light says that magic is a gift from the Maker that mages shouldn't abuse like the Tevinter Magisters. It does not say that Mages are inherently cursed and evil. Andraste was the Bride of the Maker, at least in the Chantry's eyes, so if she were a mage she could just as easily be considered the exception to the rules.

And the Bride of the Maker, acting as his prophet.

In an ideal world, many would consider her the exception to the rule, or an exceptional individual.

Unfortunately, centuries of chantry dogma and templars believing themselves superior to mages, I feel many, not all mind you, but many within the Chantry itself would never accept that as truth, as it would mean bending knee and revering a mage.

Granted, many others may just as easily accept it, but I don't see the extremist factions of the Seekers or Templars ever believing Andraste to be a mage, and would just as likely try to murder anyone preaching it or destroy any evidence of it, if they could get away with it.

[Former_Fiend]

I don't want the truth revealed one way or the other.

I think one of the more interesting things about Dragon Age is the ambiguity regarding it's mythology. I don't want to see the series lose that.

[Dayze]

I wouldn't say the Chantry is out and out lying most of the time, aside from some kind of secret shame they have hidden deep in the archives or something, but inregards to Lore they probably just tell pretty much what they know, they just do it from their perspective.

Its why they thought the Tevinter Mages were trying to force their way into the city instead of them having been "invited"/tricked there to see the Old Gods and not the Maker. But the basic idea of what seems to have happened, certainly seems to be correct.

Beyond that; everybody seems to be right on some level and I mean "everbody", there are as pointed out strange similarities between the various religions and myths, sometimes even down to names of modern day individual(s) existing as gods in the old ones.

Than throw in whatever manipulation is being done by Flemeth and whoever.....

Also Gods are kill-able in dragonage, powerful yes but the general indication of Dragonage seems to be that basically everyone in Thedas is kind of like Kolgrim.....worshiping something powerful for something much more than it actually is.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nothing would change.

The templars view of mages is a product of circumstance and the reality of living and working with mages.

Tempalrs do have authority over the mages - it matters little if that autohrity is by divine right or a kings order, or even if there is no single individual granting authority. A templar coudl easily believe that common sense or the Greater Good grant him the authority and nothing would change.

[azarhal]

Dayze wrote...

Its why they thought the Tevinter Mages were trying to force their way into the city instead of them having been "invited"/tricked there to see the Old Gods and not the Maker. But the basic idea of what seems to have happened, certainly seems to be correct.

The Chantry is right about the Tevinter Magisters goal for entering the city: Corypheus said it itself, they were seeking the power of the gods. The only difference is that the Chantry consider the Golden City as the house of the Maker and that the Magisters tried to "usurp heaven", while the Magisters believed it was the house of the Old Gods and that they were invited to take the power there (but where tricked in the end).

The two point-of-views aren't mutually exclusive, because the Magisters were lied to (or delusional*). Whatever lied to the Magisters made them force entry to the Golden City to steal the power of the Maker.

* The dragon cults codex entry mention that some cultists turn up crazy and keep on talking about godhood (last paragraph).

[Star fury]

I want an opportunity to burn all heretics and punish those who would question Chantry as a chief inquisitor.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Andraste was nothing more than a powerful mage with a silver tongue. She was able to convince a horde of barbarians that there was a 'Maker' and that he loved and supported her. Nothing more.

[Memengwa]

I can see a lot of things here...

It is stated in the mage origin, that similarly to spirits in the Fade, in the real world mages can create things with their mind, just by wishing them to be. Their power to shape things to their will isn't as strong as the power of the Fade spirits, but the analogy is still there... This whole thing lends itself to believe that the Maker indeed is just one of the spirits of Fade, and that he made Thedas, just like the Spirit of Valor can will his weapons to being, or other Spirits can bend Fade to their liking. That would mean that Thedas really is just part of the Fade *gasp*. And Andraste (being of course a mage, or at least spirit warrior) could have a connection with that said spirit.



And another funny thought to throw out there -> Andraste and Flemmeth are the same person. She does say at the beginning of Origins (just after Ostagar), that the world has done something really bad to her, she's helped the world enough already, and she's done helping it. Now it's the Grey Wardens' turn. And Andraste's ashes? Well... we have proof that Flemmeth has the way of surviving being killed.

[wcholcombe]

Flemeth's history is pretty well documented and it was plenty bad without her being Andraste.

[dragonflight288]

wcholcombe wrote...

Flemeth's history is pretty well documented and it was plenty bad without her being Andraste.

It's pretty well documented for a figure largely believed to be a myth. Cassandra nearly dismisses her involvement in DA2 because she thinks of Flemeth as a myth.

[wcholcombe]

dragonflight288 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Flemeth's history is pretty well documented and it was plenty bad without her being Andraste.

It's pretty well documented for a figure largely believed to be a myth. Cassandra nearly dismisses her involvement in DA2 because she thinks of Flemeth as a myth.

Granted, but I don't think there is any reason to think that Flemeth is Andraste.

[Reznore57]

Flemeth has many names depending on cultures , for the Dalish , she is not "Flemeth".
They may have a whole different story about her which has nothing to do with Flemeth of Highever.
Why would they open their door to a human abomination?

Besides the fact that an elven ritual for the dead can sort of "bring her back to life" is just highly suspicious.
It wouldn't work on anybody like this , so I guess she knows of elven magic beyond what the Dalish knows.

About Flemeth being Andraste , not impossible , but it would go against her goal of saving old gods/dragons.Andraste said they were false gods , before that dragons were worshipped.

I've read on the DA wiki that in Witch Hunt , Morrigan says to an Orlesian Warden , that the Wardens should go after Flemeth , and she's somehow linked to the Blight.
If somebody can confirm this ?

But anyway I would say she is really , really old.
She's probably from the time before the veil , Yavana talks about.

[LobselVith8]

Reznore57 wrote...

I've read on the DA wiki that in Witch Hunt , Morrigan says to an Orlesian Warden , that the Wardens should go after Flemeth , and she's somehow linked to the Blight.
If somebody can confirm this ? 

I know Morrigan advises The Warden to hunt Flemeth, if he hunts anyone, and that she was wrong about her mother. I'm curious what "gift" Morrigan left behind, and if the Dalish could be tied to it (since Ariane would, conceivably, receive the Dalish book and Morrigan's mysterious "gift" if The Warden departed Ferelden with her).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 octobre 2013 - 05:39 .

[Former_Fiend]

Reznore57 wrote...

Flemeth has many names depending on cultures , for the Dalish , she is not "Flemeth".
They may have a whole different story about her which has nothing to do with Flemeth of Highever.
Why would they open their door to a human abomination?

Besides the fact that an elven ritual for the dead can sort of "bring her back to life" is just highly suspicious.
It wouldn't work on anybody like this , so I guess she knows of elven magic beyond what the Dalish knows.

About Flemeth being Andraste , not impossible , but it would go against her goal of saving old gods/dragons.Andraste said they were false gods , before that dragons were worshipped.

I've read on the DA wiki that in Witch Hunt , Morrigan says to an Orlesian Warden , that the Wardens should go after Flemeth , and she's somehow linked to the Blight.
If somebody can confirm this ?

But anyway I would say she is really , really old.
She's probably from the time before the veil , Yavana talks about.

The Dalish open their doors to Flemeth because they are scared sh*tless of her, regardless of her origins.

[Reznore57]

I don't know about the "gift" , I just checked and there's two books .
One I guess is the Eluvian one and the other?
Or she could be talking about the piece of armor you get if you complete the DLC ( that's a bit lame but who knows?)

It could be Flemeth grimoire , well one of the two...but since Flemeth doesn't really care about both books , and Morrigan kept on saying her books were encrypted ...maybe a translation?
Could be linked to the warden disappearing anyway.

[dragonflight288]

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Flemeth's history is pretty well documented and it was plenty bad without her being Andraste.

It's pretty well documented for a figure largely believed to be a myth. Cassandra nearly dismisses her involvement in DA2 because she thinks of Flemeth as a myth.

Granted, but I don't think there is any reason to think that Flemeth is Andraste.

I have no reason to believe this either. According to Morrigan, she's lived so many centuries that she remembers a time that Ferelden wasn't called Ferelden.

We know from Chantry History that Andraste was born in Ferelden, so we know Flemeth predates Andraste.

[Former_Fiend]

dragonflight288 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Flemeth's history is pretty well documented and it was plenty bad without her being Andraste.

It's pretty well documented for a figure largely believed to be a myth. Cassandra nearly dismisses her involvement in DA2 because she thinks of Flemeth as a myth.

Granted, but I don't think there is any reason to think that Flemeth is Andraste.

I have no reason to believe this either. According to Morrigan, she's lived so many centuries that she remembers a time that Ferelden wasn't called Ferelden.

We know from Chantry History that Andraste was born in Ferelden, so we know Flemeth predates Andraste.

Well, by Flemeth's own account(as relayed through Morrigan), she would have been born early on in the Towers Age, something like three or four hundred years after Andraste's death. 

Apparently it wasn't called Ferelden back then and people just refer to it as such in the past tense, like saying France instead of Gaul.

[dragonflight288]

Former_Fiend wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Flemeth's history is pretty well documented and it was plenty bad without her being Andraste.

It's pretty well documented for a figure largely believed to be a myth. Cassandra nearly dismisses her involvement in DA2 because she thinks of Flemeth as a myth.

Granted, but I don't think there is any reason to think that Flemeth is Andraste.

I have no reason to believe this either. According to Morrigan, she's lived so many centuries that she remembers a time that Ferelden wasn't called Ferelden.

We know from Chantry History that Andraste was born in Ferelden, so we know Flemeth predates Andraste.

Well, by Flemeth's own account(as relayed through Morrigan), she would have been born early on in the Towers Age, something like three or four hundred years after Andraste's death. 

Apparently it wasn't called Ferelden back then and people just refer to it as such in the past tense, like saying France instead of Gaul.

Right. That makes sense as well.

[azarhal]

dragonflight288 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Flemeth's history is pretty well documented and it was plenty bad without her being Andraste.

It's pretty well documented for a figure largely believed to be a myth. Cassandra nearly dismisses her involvement in DA2 because she thinks of Flemeth as a myth.

Granted, but I don't think there is any reason to think that Flemeth is Andraste.

I have no reason to believe this either. According to Morrigan, she's lived so many centuries that she remembers a time that Ferelden wasn't called Ferelden.

We know from Chantry History that Andraste was born in Ferelden, so we know Flemeth predates Andraste.

Ferelden came to be a country only 400 years ago. Andraste was, apparently, born 1200+ years ago in a small village that became the Denerim of today. There was no Ferelden in her time, only a bunch of warring tribes (Chasind, Avvar and Alamarri). Note that the claim is made by Brother Genitivi as well, he's from Denerim and despite saying he's not biaised with this he might be.

There are mention of other birthplace, one is Jader in Orlais.

[Xilizhra]

Well, by Flemeth's own account(as relayed through Morrigan), she would have been born early on in the Towers Age, something like three or four hundred years after Andraste's death.

Keep in mind that this is a lie, as shown later in Witch Hunt when Morrigan reveals that Flemeth isn't human at all, nor an abomination.