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So what is your reasoning behind the Ultimate Sacrifice choice made by your Warden, Bioware?


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#251
Silfren

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TurretSyndrome wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...

The Freeholders indeed elect their ruler but that depends on how much support the person gathers from them. If it's not enough or at half way, it will almost always come to a civil war. You can check out Fereldan history and law and you'll understand it's all about the size of your army and the support you have. Even if you become king, your rule is not absolute, that is how Ferelden is, and is also why it makes it the most interesting place to me, compared to others in Thedas.

Alistair is the bastard son of Maric, who barely ever knew any nobles apart from his two uncles, yet his blood allowed him to challenge both Anora and Loghain. The unlikely heir to the throne was then made the King of Ferelden overnight. My point is, anything could happen. My Warden now brought in a new card to the table, that is all I'm saying. I'm not denying he's making a significant gamble with a lot of variables, but there you go.


It is stated that after Maric's dissapearence a lot of people considered Bryce Cousland a better option for king than Cailan. For all we know, the only reason he wasn't elected was that he was too much of a royalist to partake in it, not to mention that Anora, though almost a commoner, proved a capable enough ruler to balance out Cailan's incompetence. Alistair was a reasonable candidate not only for his blood, but also because he had Eamon's and the Grey Warden's support, while Anora was the daugther of the man who started the civil war in the middle of an invasion. The proof is that Alistair cannot succeed without the Warden's support. So I don't think blood has as much weight in Ferelden as you might believe.


You sure about that? Go check out some youtube videos where Eamon talks to the Warden and Alistair about whose got a bigger claim to the throne. Anora isn't "almost a commoner". She's born nobility(since Loghain was made a noble after the war with Orlais and Maric's coronation).

Not to mention she was the queen at the time of the Landsmeet. Eamon also clearly states that the reason Alistair is the right contender against Anora or Loghain as he has a better claim than Eamon, who is equivalent to Loghain. Not anyone can become king. This is proven especially when you try to be king, and only end up being prince or princess-consort.


Don't forget that Eamon personally has a vested interest in having Alistair on the throne instead of Anora.  It's quite likely that his words reflect his own ambitions and little else.  We can see from talking with some of the nobles that they are fine with Anora's rule and have been all along--at least one questions the wisdom of Eamon's Theirin bastard when Anora is doing a perfectly acceptable job.  It's also important to note that Eamon acknowledges his claim through marriage, but cites the fact that if he vied for the throne, he'd be viewed as an opportunist.  I suspect that this is true--he doesn't go for this notion because he doesn't expect any such bid to be successful, but had the circumstances been favorable for his election, I think he'd have gone for it. 

No, not just anyone can be the monarch, but your argument kind of falls flat for your purpose here, because it is actually true that any member of the nobility with the right support could be considered for it.  Despite the fact that the Theirins have held the throne through inheritance, election by the Landsmeet is the law--and yes, it is true that Bryce Cousland was considered as an alternative to Cailan.

#252
Dave of Canada

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Eamon's name makes me froth at the mouth.

He's such a good manipulator and I'm not even sure the writers intended for him to be one.

#253
Silfren

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Gwydden wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...

You sure about that? Go check out some youtube videos where Eamon talks to the Warden and Alistair about whose got a bigger claim to the throne. Anora isn't "almost a commoner". She's born nobility(since Loghain was made a noble after the war with Orlais and Maric's coronation).

Not to mention she was the queen at the time of the Landsmeet. Eamon also clearly states that the reason Alistair is the right contender against Anora or Loghain as he has a better claim than Eamon, who is equivalent to Loghain. Not anyone can become king. This is proven especially when you try to be king, and only end up being prince or princess-consort.


Blood is very important, that can't be argued. However, in Alistair's case, it wasn't the only factor. If he didn't have the Warden's (by his own admission leader of the order in Ferelden) support, he would fail. The same was true for Anora, since her possition was weak after her father being brought fort and challenged for his crimes.

The Warden can't become king, but that is just, I believe, because he only becomes ruler by extension. He is a stranger to most in the Landsmeet, and therefore wouldn't have a good claim as a candidate. Alistair, however, has Theirin blood, which automatically enables him to be a candidate in the eyes of the Bannorn, but doesn't necessarily means he'll be chosen. Anora was Cailan's wife and is a capable ruler, so for that along she was quite popular, despite her image being tarnished a bit in the Landsmeet and therefore giving Alastair and edge.

The decission falls on the PC, who by all effects is the Warden Commander. He's proven the Blight is a top priority and that the GW are indispensable to fight it, and everyone thinks he/she is the best one to decide which ruler will do better against it, since the playing ground has been evened between Alastair (with no references but good forebearers) and Anora (with excellent references but her father having falled in disgrace). That is if you win the Landsmeet to your side of course. If you don't, the Warden just takes over and technically becomes and usurper, chosing the next ruler by virtue of strength.

That's why Alistair can get chosen, not just by his blood. And the Warden is not a candidate by him/herself because he/she doesn't have the benefit of neither popularity or blood, and the people of Ferelden wouldn't stand an usurper for long. Just look at what happened to Meghren.


This last is a bit of a stretch.  The only Warden who can become a candidate is the Human Noble, and they would hardly be unknown by the Landsmeet, given that the Cousland family is second only to the monarch in terms of power.  Within Highever Cousland is QUITE popular, and them ascending to the throne wouldn't necessarily be viewed as usurpation...certainly not on the same scale as a Meghren, who was the puppet ruler of the invading Orlesians.

#254
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Eamon's name makes me froth at the mouth.

He's such a good manipulator and I'm not even sure the writers intended for him to be one.


With that voice it is a distinct possibility.

#255
Silfren

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Eamon's name makes me froth at the mouth.

He's such a good manipulator and I'm not even sure the writers intended for him to be one.


I don't much like him myself.  It's so disgusting the way he wants to use Alistair after treating the poor guy like sh*t most of his life, and then blathering on about responsibilities...after all that time spent beating it into Alistair's head that he would never, ever be eligible for royal responsibilities in the first place!

#256
Reznore57

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I don't think Anora is a good ruler , at all.
First thing to happen when her husband die is a civil war ,riot at the alienages and she let her father cut off the Wardens from Ferelden.
She's lucky she still have a country to rule by the end of DA:O.

#257
Silfren

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Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think Anora is a good ruler , at all.
First thing to happen when her husband die is a civil war ,riot at the alienages and she let her father cut off the Wardens from Ferelden.
She's lucky she still have a country to rule by the end of DA:O.


Well, I'd rather not get into this discussion too deeply.  What we think of Anora is kind of irrelevant.  The game tells us that she was an extremely popular leader, well liked by both the common folk and the nobility, for being a capable administrator.  I would agree that the game kind of contradicts this at various points, but again, this is kind of beside the point.  Also, what happened after the Battle of Ostagar was a unique situation Anora had not had to deal with, it doesn't necessarily reflect how capable she was under normal circumstances--even good rulers can find themselves facing an uphill battle when the nation is falling apart before their very eyes.

Modifié par Silfren, 15 octobre 2013 - 11:05 .


#258
Xilizhra

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Silfren wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Eamon's name makes me froth at the mouth.

He's such a good manipulator and I'm not even sure the writers intended for him to be one.


I don't much like him myself.  It's so disgusting the way he wants to use Alistair after treating the poor guy like sh*t most of his life, and then blathering on about responsibilities...after all that time spent beating it into Alistair's head that he would never, ever be eligible for royal responsibilities in the first place!

I might dislike him, were it not for the fact that Alistair has far more right to and yet doesn't. And he may have made mistakes in the past, but he's right enough about how Alistair could make a bid for the throne.

#259
Magdalena11

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I had a warden who refused the DR because she felt it was too much like blood magic. I had one who refused because he didn't trust Morrigan. I had one who believed the OGB would be a tainted creature despite what Morrigan told her.

I had a warden who accepted the ritual because she wanted to take no chances on Anora staying queen. I had one who was deeply in love with Morrigan and trusted her implicitly. I had one who accepted because he was rather power hungry and wanted to take no chances and wanted to make sure he got to be prince consort.

#260
dragonflight288

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Silfren wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think Anora is a good ruler , at all.
First thing to happen when her husband die is a civil war ,riot at the alienages and she let her father cut off the Wardens from Ferelden.
She's lucky she still have a country to rule by the end of DA:O.


Well, I'd rather not get into this discussion too deeply.  What we think of Anora is kind of irrelevant.  The game tells us that she was an extremely popular leader, well liked by both the common folk and the nobility, for being a capable administrator.  I would agree that the game kind of contradicts this at various points, but again, this is kind of beside the point.  Also, what happened after the Battle of Ostagar was a unique situation Anora had not had to deal with, it doesn't necessarily reflect how capable she was under normal circumstances--even good rulers can find themselves facing an uphill battle when the nation is falling apart before their very eyes.


Or when the bannorn decide to start a civil war and not fall in line behind their queen and her regent...in this case, Loghain.

#261
Sherbet Lemon

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Hyrule_Gal wrote...


Although she did have a moment of weakness when Morrigan pulled the Alistair card in an attempt to emotionally coerce her . At first she hesitated but ultimately realized what Morrigan was trying to do. She didn’t care about Alistair’s well-being at all. She had lied, kept things from the warden and waited till the very last minute to present this choice. Just so the warden would feel desperate enough to agree to the offer when the truth was finally revealed (that slaying the archdemon meant one warden had to die).  

Upon this realization she no longer saw a friend in front of her but someone who could not be trusted.


The bold is key for my first completed Warden, a human Circle Mage who was an idealist in every sense of the word.  She'd gone and killed Flemeth for Morrigan, and even given her that Grimoire to which to Erato Amell's mind had all sorts of forbidden magic and betrayed her morals to do it.  She felt betrayed and manipulated by the revelation that the OG Baby was Flemeth's plan all along and Morrigan knew about it.  I think what compounded the factor for her was Morrigan's refusal to tell her why she wanted the baby and what the endgame was.  At this point, she couldn't trust her.  

I have to also say Wynne's speeches had a profound impact on her moral compass.  Erato was a Circle mage through and through.  She truly believed in the honor and duty of sacrifice and so she chose death.  This Warden romanced Alistair and so the bonus was also saving him.

#262
BlueMagitek

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In Exile wrote...

I just don't see what possible danger the OGB could actually pose if it's insane and evil. I'd have to be many times stronger than an archdemon to actually be threatening. 


The issue comes from it being sane and evil.

Also known as Neutral Evil.   :devil:

#263
Azaron Nightblade

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BlueMagitek wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I just don't see what possible danger the OGB could actually pose if it's insane and evil. I'd have to be many times stronger than an archdemon to actually be threatening. 


The issue comes from it being sane and evil.

Also known as Neutral Evil.   :devil:


Sane, evil* and Intelligent - compared to the mindless drive of an Archdemon (and the majority of the Darkspawn).
Yep, that gives it potential for a lot of mayhem. :P

On topic: I only have one Warden that made the Ultimate Sacrifice because he believed that "transferring" the old god's essence into some other vessel wasn't actually stopping it, it was just a bandaid fix and someone else was eventually going to have to deal with that abomination if he allowed the Dark Ritual to happen.

* That is of course assuming that Morrigan's purposes are evil, of which we haven't seen any real evidence so far.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 16 octobre 2013 - 12:10 .


#264
TurretSyndrome

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Silfren wrote...
No, not just anyone can be the monarch, but your argument kind of falls flat for your purpose here, because it is actually true that any member of the nobility with the right support could be considered for it.  Despite the fact that the Theirins have held the throne through inheritance, election by the Landsmeet is the law--and yes, it is true that Bryce Cousland was considered as an alternative to Cailan.


You're missing my point. If there is an heir to the throne, he/she will have that advantage, that's why I brought up Alistair's bloodline. Bryce Cousland was not considered an alternative to Cailan, it was just that a lot of people felt that he could be a better king than Cailan. Such a line of thought is only natural since Cailan is young and also acts foolish, while Bryce Cousland commands a lot of respect from the nobles and the general public. 

If Bryce Cousland wanted to stage a coup, he'd have a good bit of support, but he wouldn't as he's an honourable man and very loyal to the king.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 16 octobre 2013 - 12:12 .


#265
BlueMagitek

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I don't like Morrigan and I can deny her what she wants and give Loghain his redemption at the same time.

It is very much a win win.


Oh, you and I think far too much alike sometimes. :D


Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Sane, evil* and Intelligent - compared to the mindless drive of an Archdemon (and the majority of the Darkspawn).
Yep, that gives it potential for a lot of mayhem. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

On
topic: I only have one Warden that made the Ultimate Sacrifice because
he believed that "transferring" the old god's essence into some other
vessel wasn't actually stopping it, it was just a bandaid fix and
someone else was eventually going to have to deal with that abomination
if he allowed the Dark Ritual to happen.

* That is of course assuming that Morrigan's purposes are evil, of which we haven't seen any real evidence so far.


I'm certain Morrigan's child will be intelligent.  Otherwise the OGB wouldn't be a problem at all!  Unless she bodyhops into it.

#266
Guest_Challenge Everything_*

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TurretSyndrome wrote...

 This is also a question I asked myself, when I first decided my Warden should do it. The only reasoning I could come up with was that it felt epic and wanted to thwart atleast one of the plans of the mysterious Flemeth and her daughter. 

But for obvious reasons, it never felt right for me. Why would anyone kill him/herself simply out of suspicion of some sorceress.? The implications of what castastrophe we might bring onto the world of Thedas always remained vague, atleast to me, as I played the game. Whatever they were, I was never able to feel that they justify a self sacrifice.

So, I'm really curious. What was going on in Bioware's canon Warden's head, when he/she decided they take such a drastic choice? What was going on through your(Bioware) heads when you opted for this ending, especially since you were the ones that introduced the Dark Ritual backdoor in the first place? 

Oh and I would welcome the community's own point of view on this as well, especially from those who chose the ending and still abide by it even after all these years, like me. :lol:



I think not trusting Morrigan is a fairly good reason. Plus, a lot of Wardens have really crappy pasts. My Dalish Waren had Tamlen tell her that he loved her and then he died right in front of her. She kind of wanted to die after that. She was kind of beggin Riordan to let her take the final blow.

Reasoning -
Cousland: all your family is dead (as far as you know)
Mage: all/most of your friends at the tower are dead; Jowan, you're best friend, is gone; a mage sacrificing themselves to save everyone will prove to people that mages aren't bad
Dalish: your clan is gone; Tamlen is gone; you had to kill Tamlen/watch him die, potentially after confessing love to you if you're female and chose certain dialogue options earlier on
Dwarf: In addition to your crappy life, dwarves would probably have the biggest prejudice and suspicion out of any of the other potential Warden's when it comes to Morrigan's ritual. My casteless dwarf certainly did. My casteless dwarf also wanted to do something. Prove he wasn't worthless. Rica was happy, and he was willing to die for her.
City elf: guilt over sparking the riot in the alienage that got many people killed (sure, it technically wasn't their fault, but it could totally be seen that way); guilt over not saving Valendrian in time; same as the mage reason, wanting to prove that they can good things, too; you're family is practically fallen apart - Soris is spiteful and distant, your father upset that you couldn't live the life he wanted for you, and there's always a sense of guilt when around Shianni

#267
TurretSyndrome

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Gwydden wrote...
That's why Alistair can get chosen, not just by his blood. And the Warden is not a candidate by him/herself because he/she doesn't have the benefit of neither popularity or blood, and the people of Ferelden wouldn't stand an usurper for long. Just look at what happened to Meghren.


He can't get chosen if he's not Maric's son, that's the point I was trying to make. His blood is the minimum requirement to have a chance at ascending the throne, and he serves as a plot device in various scenarios mostly to due to this.

Anyway, back to the topic. When I chose to perform the Dark Ritual, I thought the boy might have a use if he's Alistair's son, rather than mine. That's it. If this was my sole or primary reason for performing the ritual, I agree that it would be stupid, not to mention I'd be contradicting myself since throughout the thread, I was going on about how it's unnecessary to foolishly sacrifice myself or Alistair because the child may someday become a threat.

The god-child bearing Theirin blood is a sort of a perk to me, if anything.

#268
Karlone123

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Regardless of the outcoms of whatever happened with the Dark Ritual, it has been an interesting subject for the last four years, and five when DAI comes out.

#269
Gwydden

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Silfren wrote...

This last is a bit of a stretch.  The only Warden who can become a candidate is the Human Noble, and they would hardly be unknown by the Landsmeet, given that the Cousland family is second only to the monarch in terms of power.  Within Highever Cousland is QUITE popular, and them ascending to the throne wouldn't necessarily be viewed as usurpation...certainly not on the same scale as a Meghren, who was the puppet ruler of the invading Orlesians.


I was talking mostly about the other origins. However, even the human noble is suposed to be a neutral party and putting himself forward as candidate wouldn't have been a smart move. Bryce Cousland was very popular, yes, but his son is not widely known outside of Highever.

#270
Gwydden

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Silfren wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think Anora is a good ruler , at all.
First thing to happen when her husband die is a civil war ,riot at the alienages and she let her father cut off the Wardens from Ferelden.
She's lucky she still have a country to rule by the end of DA:O.


Well, I'd rather not get into this discussion too deeply.  What we think of Anora is kind of irrelevant.  The game tells us that she was an extremely popular leader, well liked by both the common folk and the nobility, for being a capable administrator.  I would agree that the game kind of contradicts this at various points, but again, this is kind of beside the point.  Also, what happened after the Battle of Ostagar was a unique situation Anora had not had to deal with, it doesn't necessarily reflect how capable she was under normal circumstances--even good rulers can find themselves facing an uphill battle when the nation is falling apart before their very eyes.


I took from the game that Anora was a good ruler in times of peace, but when there was crisis/war, she was pretty much at a loss and relying on daddy, who wouldn't really pay attention to her anyway.

#271
Gwydden

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TurretSyndrome wrote...

Silfren wrote...
No, not just anyone can be the monarch, but your argument kind of falls flat for your purpose here, because it is actually true that any member of the nobility with the right support could be considered for it.  Despite the fact that the Theirins have held the throne through inheritance, election by the Landsmeet is the law--and yes, it is true that Bryce Cousland was considered as an alternative to Cailan.


You're missing my point. If there is an heir to the throne, he/she will have that advantage, that's why I brought up Alistair's bloodline. Bryce Cousland was not considered an alternative to Cailan, it was just that a lot of people felt that he could be a better king than Cailan. Such a line of thought is only natural since Cailan is young and also acts foolish, while Bryce Cousland commands a lot of respect from the nobles and the general public. 

If Bryce Cousland wanted to stage a coup, he'd have a good bit of support, but he wouldn't as he's an honourable man and very loyal to the king.


Cousland would never put himself forth as candidate. That's the point. But many thought he would make a better king than Cailan, and I'm sure many more would have supported had he taken that step. There wouldn't have been need for a coup or civil war, just a Landsmeet.

#272
Gwydden

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TurretSyndrome wrote...

Gwydden wrote...
That's why Alistair can get chosen, not just by his blood. And the Warden is not a candidate by him/herself because he/she doesn't have the benefit of neither popularity or blood, and the people of Ferelden wouldn't stand an usurper for long. Just look at what happened to Meghren.


He can't get chosen if he's not Maric's son, that's the point I was trying to make. His blood is the minimum requirement to have a chance at ascending the throne, and he serves as a plot device in various scenarios mostly to due to this.

Anyway, back to the topic. When I chose to perform the Dark Ritual, I thought the boy might have a use if he's Alistair's son, rather than mine. That's it. If this was my sole or primary reason for performing the ritual, I agree that it would be stupid, not to mention I'd be contradicting myself since throughout the thread, I was going on about how it's unnecessary to foolishly sacrifice myself or Alistair because the child may someday become a threat.

The god-child bearing Theirin blood is a sort of a perk to me, if anything.


On the DR topic, I must say I agree with earlier comments suggesting that whatever consequences it has, it's better if they aren't explicitly good or bad, but subject to interpretation. Everytime I remember Morrigan's word about change coming to the world I can't help but think that she has something to do with this Mage-Templar War, and possibly the Veil Tear.

#273
Star fury

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Silfren wrote...

I don't much like him myself.  It's so disgusting the way he wants to use Alistair after treating the poor guy like sh*t most of his life, and then blathering on about responsibilities...after all that time spent beating it into Alistair's head that he would never, ever be eligible for royal responsibilities in the first place!


Eamon is a good responsible feudal lord. He thinks about kingdom first, when Cailan was alive it was important not to have another pretender. Everything changed with Cailan's death and Loghain was ruining Ferelden, so he had to press Alistair's claim.

Modifié par Star fury, 16 octobre 2013 - 03:51 .


#274
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Eamon is a traditionalist, the thought of the daughter of a former peasant holding the throne must be almost unbearable to him.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 16 octobre 2013 - 04:00 .


#275
Fardreamer

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Eamon is a traditionalist, the thought of the daughter of a former peasant holding the throne must be almost unbearable to him.


I doubt he cares much... all he cares is that Therin's blood is still on the throne.  He fully supported Anora and Alistair ruling jointly.