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[Phate Phoenix]

 As the default import for DAO is a female Dalish elf, you could head-canon that the Warden had been in love with Tamlen and honestly wanted to join him in the Beyond, but couldn't because she felt she had an obligation to her clan to join the Grey Wardens. Then, when the chance of death presented itself, she chose as her mother did to go meet death and be with her lost love.

At least, that's how I imagined it for when I used that import for DA2.

I have one character who (when I get to her) would be very tempted to deny Morrigan the ritual, simply because she doesn't trust Morrigan, especially with a child with the soul of an Old God. However, she's selfish and wants to live a happy life when Alistair, so she talks Alistair into it.

She will stab Morrigan in the back, though.

My others are all too fond of either Morrigan or themselves to not do it. (One will have Loghain sacrifice himself instead, but that's because she won't be able to convince him to do it.) But I do see reasons why other Wardens would.

Those that feel the Grey Wardens must know best in this, and surely if there was such a ritual, the Wardens would have heard of it by now? Or they don't trust Morrigan, or they don't trust anything with the soul of an Old God, or they don't trust magic or mages or anyone trained by the Witch of the Wilds. Maybe they're depressed. Maybe they want to die a hero. Maybe they're Casteless and feel they have no other purpose but this.

Lots and lots of reasons.

Modifié par Phate Phoenix, 14 octobre 2013 - 09:28 .

[Gwydden]

I guess there are people with a very strong sense of duty, stronger even than their self-preservation instincts. But I believe most people, given that choice, would chose either the DR or have someone else perform the US. Even if it's just coincidental, most of my Warden's do. Ironically, it's generally the ones who've had the crappier lives (human mage, dwarf commoner, human noble).

[Bfler]

I always do the ritual.

During her friendship dialog her last line, which also sounds as if she regrets, is: "I want you to know that while I may not always prove... worthy... of your friendship. I will always value it."

No person, who willingly wants to harm or betray you, would say such words in this manner.


Maybe they will change her character in Inquisition, but in Origins I rate her as trustworthy.

Modifié par Bfler, 14 octobre 2013 - 09:47 .

[TurretSyndrome]

Bfler wrote...

During her friendship dialog her last line, which also sounds as if she regrets, is: "I want you to know that while I may not always prove... worthy... of your friendship. I will always value it."

No person, who willingly wants to harm or betray you, would say such words in this manner.

An interesting point to be brought up for sure.

[The Xand]

It's because the first game offered too many character choices for them to ever put *your* Warden into Dragon Age 3. Hawke at least only comes in six varieties taking into account the gender/race/class combinations and they can all be properly condensed enough for your Hawke to make an appearance.

Personally I don't think you need much more in-game incentive than the fact that the Warden was just that, a Grey Warden, and sacrificing his own life to end a Blight and kill a corrupted Old God to save a country of people is a worthy enough cause.

Modifié par The Xand, 14 octobre 2013 - 09:48 .

[Gwydden]

However, Morrigan may not betray the Warden, just screw a lot of other people up. Not to mention that she saying that she will value his/her friendship even if she's not "worthy" sound suspicious.

Still, I stand in my view that sacrificing your life because a friend of yours maybe, someday, may do something shady is not something I would do, and as I have stated several times, neither wouldn't most of my Wardens.

[Gwydden]

The Xand wrote...

It's because the first game offered too many character choices for them to ever put *your* Warden into Dragon Age 3. Hawke at least only comes in six varieties taking into account the gender/race/class combinations and they can all be properly condensed enough for your Hawke to make an appearance.

Personally I don't think you need much more in-game incentive than the fact that the Warden was just that, a Grey Warden, and sacrificing his own life to end a Blight and kill a corrupted Old God to save a country of people is a worthy enough cause.

You're right, of course, but mose of my Wardens disliked their jobs to some extent. In that case, do you believe your interpretation still apply?

[TheBlackAdder13]

Gwydden wrote...

I was aiming towards the US in my first game but eventually I relented to Loghain's pleas. The reasoning was pretty obvius: the OGB was a loose cannon, completely unpredictable, and it would have been completely irresponsible to go that route. Most of my character chose the DR, though, since most of them are pretty selfish (and somewhat irresponsible) people.

This. I have a hard time understanding why many Darik Ritualers don't grasp the full implications as to why the dark ritual could be such a cluster ****/terrible idea, regardless of who does it.  I'm actually surprised by the number of players who did it -- I feel like a lot of people are int he mindset that something can't be a bad thing just because your hero/PC is the one who does it. Aside from the fact that Morrigan and Flemeth's motives and plans are both completely opaque, what about brining the soul of an old god back into the world seems like a good idea?

I also can't see why any devout Andrastian warden would do it. My city elf was a pretty firm Andrastian and didn't do it (but he was too afraid to die/decided the alienage needed him and that Anora would be a more practical choice for ruler so he let Alistair take the fall  -- cue life long guilt complex). 

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 14 octobre 2013 - 09:54 .

[Gwydden]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

This. I have a hard time understanding why many Darik Ritualers don't grasp the full implications as to why the dark ritual could be such a cluster ****/terrible idea, regardless of who does it.  I'm actually surprised by the number of players who did it -- I feel like a lot of people are int he mindset that something can't be a bad thing just because your hero/PC is the one who does it. Aside from the fact that Morrigan and Flemeth's motives and plans are both completely opaque, what about brining the soul of an old god back into the world seems like a good idea?

I also can't see why any devout Andrastian warden would do it. My city elf was a pretty firm Andrastian and didn't do it (but he was too afraid to die/decided the alienage needed him and that Anora would be a more practical choice for ruler so he let Alistair take the fall  -- cue life long guilt complex). 

Let's see. We have the US, which is without a doubt the most selfless and moral choice. I, personally, in that situation, wouldn't go with it when there is an alternative, because I am not that selfless. I agree with the risks of the DR, however.

About why an Andrastian would chose it... My mage was Andrastian. Not devout, mind you, since he was pretty resentfull of the Chantry. But his life in the Circle sucked, and he actually enjoyed his time as a Grey Warden. After having the best year of his life, he wasn't willing to give it up just like that. He trusted Morrigan well enough, even though he had his doubts. And eventually, he chose to pursue her to make sure she wouldn't do anything too crazy.

I wouldn't blame that guy for wanting to have a life.

[Medhia Nox]

@Gwydden: I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to have a life... but I would hold them accountable for how they secured that life.

What was the cost of the character's purchase?

You're saying your character would produce offspring to ensure his own life.

Did you kill Flemeth on Morrigan's behalf because Morrigan told you Flemeth had: "Produced offspring to ensure her own life." ?

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Gwydden: I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to have a life... but I would hold them accountable for how they secured that life.

What was the cost of the character's purchase?

You're saying your character would produce offspring to ensure his own life.

Did you kill Flemeth on Morrigan's behalf because Morrigan told you Flemeth had: "Produced offspring to ensure her own life." ?

My character never planned to possess his own child to prolong his life for longer than it would last by natural means. I'm really curious as to where do you consider to be wrong in that.

And hell, he could have had Loghain kill the Archdemon in his place. Would that be better? Or, if you're of the idea that Loghain deserves to die, say Alistair instead.

Modifié par Gwydden, 14 octobre 2013 - 10:11 .

[The Xand]

Gwydden wrote...

You're right, of course, but mose of my Wardens disliked their jobs to some extent. In that case, do you believe your interpretation still apply?

Hmm. I think it does actually. You could always not sacrifice yourself The way I see it, the Grey Wardens conscripted you and you have an obligation to them to stop the Archdemon any way you can, up to and including sacrificing yourself. It's that or have to deal with a Grey Warden jihad falling down on your head I guess.

[agonis]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I did it because I didn't trust Morrigan and because I found the Dark Ritual to be cowardice and I wasn't playing a coward... it's called "the DARK ritual".

I find using childbirth as a way to stay alive disgusting. I couldn't believe Morrigan would ever be a good mother even if somehow this turned out to be just a child. I don't use children as currency.

And... I wasn't going to ask someone else to die for those beliefs.

And... because everyone dies, not just Grey Wardens who have a perfectly long life. Choosing how you die is something I can respect.

----

@Gwydden: When someone says "life is not everything" - a lot of times they mean "my indivdual life".

So much this.

The US Ending of DA:O was glorious in many ways. I may be kind of idealistic but I live in Germany and I sometimes think of the NS Regime and some people who did crazy things at that time. (Not the killing and ignoring what is going on. Ignoring something that can harm you ist very human...) I think about those people living in constant fear of a really terrible death but still helping others survive even if it got them killed in the end. I do not know what I would do if something happens that will make me choose between surviving and doing what I believe is right.

That´s why I think the choices at the end of DA:O make it a wonderfull game.

[TurretSyndrome]

 I think a lot of people are taking it as black and white, i.e., you are either selfless if you choose the Ultimate Sacrifice, or selfish if you choose the Dark Ritual. 

To me, it's hardly that simple. Just because the Warden chooses DR over US, doesn't necessarily make him/her selfish. If he/she has atleast a passable amount of knowledge regarding the consequences of choosing the Dark Ritual(which we assume are bad), and still chose it, then he/she could be considered to be selfish. 

So, let's say I have a warden who values duty, maintains a good sense of morality, he might still go for the ritual as he might feel sacrificing his life on a mere suspicion of things is very foolish and close minded. Not to mention, he would have even more cause to go with it, if he made Alistair king and persuade him to do it, almost immediately granting an heir to the throne from the Theirin line. This has a low chance of happening if Alistair is on his own, because the older he gets, the more the taint corrupts his body and makes him unable to have a child.

We already know that Anora is barren, and if you marry him to your female warden, he would have half the chance to have a heir with the warden, as opposed to with an untainted person. 

I would definitely consider that to be worth the risk.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 14 octobre 2013 - 10:39 .

[agonis]

This is the first interesting and (polite) discussion in days...

[zqrahll]

I hated the sacrifice endings, as they felt super cheesy to me, especially the ones where the Warden & Alistair kiss. I definitely preferred the Dark Ritual ending as:

1. It allowed me access to a little epilogue with the squad and backstory important NPCs (like the return of the Human's long lost brother).

2. It set up what could hopefully be really interesting, if Bioware ever delivers on Morrigan & her demon-spawn baby mystery.

3. It felt really clumbsy to see a dramatic sacrifice thrown into the plot at the 11th hour. I would have strongly preferred the Warden (& Alistair) knowing that one of them would have to die in order to save Ferelden. It could have made their interactions a lot more dramatic.

4. I just really hated the sacrifice ending with lame speeches given around a Warden bonfire, especially since the Warden doesn't get the option to influence what will happen to the kingdom unlike the epilogue scene.

5. Sacrifice destroys the immersion of importing into Awakenings, Witch Hunt, or Golems. Playing a new character in those is lame.

[Gwydden]

The Xand wrote...

Hmm. I think it does actually. You could always not sacrifice yourself The way I see it, the Grey Wardens conscripted you and you have an obligation to them to stop the Archdemon any way you can, up to and including sacrificing yourself. It's that or have to deal with a Grey Warden jihad falling down on your head I guess.

Well, Duncan, and by extention the Grey Wardens, did save the Warden's life. Whether that means he must sacrifice himself to pay that debt is more of a matter of personal opinion. Certainly, the US is the Warden's duty. But very few people can put duty ahead of everything else all the time, and quite often those aren't even nice people. So excuse me if I'm not inclined to consider it a virtue by default. I can understand Shepard having to die in ME3. It's the only way out of the hell the galaxy's in. But the Warden has a perfectly good alternative that he/she doesn't have a reason to believe will end up terribly, specially if he/she trusts or kind of trusts Morrigan.

Seriously, having to face that choice yourself, certain death now, certain death of a friend of yours now, and a proposition that lets everyone (even Urthemiel!) out of it alive at the possible risk of a vague threat in the future... I know what I would do, and I admit is selfish. Whether is wrong, though, is arguable.

[agonis]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

 I think a lot of people are taking it as black and white, i.e., you are either selfless if you choose the Ultimate Sacrifice, or selfish if you choose the Dark Ritual. 
To me, it's hardly that simple. Just because the Warden chooses DR over US, doesn't necessarily make him/her selfish. If he/she has atleast a passable amount of knowledge regarding the consequences of choosing the Dark Ritual(which we assume are bad), and still chose it, then he/she could be considered to be selfish. 

So, let's say I have a warden who values duty, maintains a good sense of morality, he might still go for the ritual as he might feel sacrificing his life on a mere suspicion of things is very foolish and close minded. Not to mention, he would have even more cause to go with it, if he made Alistair king and persuade him to do it, almost immediately granting an heir to the throne from the Theirin line. 

I would definitely consider that to be worth the risk.

Quite a risk, if you have to track down your offspring to kill it in the end, if things don´t go as planed...

The motivation for the US doesn´t need to be selfless. It seems selfless, of course but in the end it can be all grudging teeth-grinding: "F*** this! I won´t risk it! All be damned!" *and you die in a mighty Archdemon explosion*
Perhaps there are more epic ways to quit but surely not many...

[Gwydden]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

 I think a lot of people are taking it as black and white, i.e., you are either selfless if you choose the Ultimate Sacrifice, or selfish if you choose the Dark Ritual. 
To me, it's hardly that simple. Just because the Warden chooses DR over US, doesn't necessarily make him/her selfish. If he/she has atleast a passable amount of knowledge regarding the consequences of choosing the Dark Ritual(which we assume are bad), and still chose it, then he/she could be considered to be selfish. 

So, let's say I have a warden who values duty, maintains a good sense of morality, he might still go for the ritual as he might feel sacrificing his life on a mere suspicion of things is very foolish and close minded. Not to mention, he would have even more cause to go with it, if he made Alistair king and persuade him to do it, almost immediately granting an heir to the throne from the Theirin line. 

I would definitely consider that to be worth the risk.

Thera have been comments on Morrigan and Flemeth's plot coming to a resolution or at least getting partially explained in DAI. Considering Morrigan's words in Witch Hunt ("change is coming to the world") and DAI's plot, that seems likely. I wonder whether the OGB (if he exists, of course) will appear in this game (he's likely ten years old) or later on.

We might get to see the consequences of the DR at long last.

Modifié par Gwydden, 14 octobre 2013 - 10:36 .

[Kashichan823]

 TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

I also can't see why any devout Andrastian warden would do it. My city elf was a pretty firm Andrastian and didn't do it (but he was too afraid to die/decided the alienage needed him and that Anora would be a more practical choice for ruler so he let Alistair take the fall  -- cue life long guilt complex). 

One of my Wardens was also very religious. And so as I understood it the soul of the warden who slays the archdemon and the soul of the archdemon annihilate each other as if they never existed.  And for someone who believes that after death the soul lives on at the makers site he was simply too afraid of sacrificing himself and he agreed on the dark ritual.

Modifié par Kashichan823, 14 octobre 2013 - 10:48 .

[The Xand]

Gwydden wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Hmm. I think it does actually. You could always not sacrifice yourself The way I see it, the Grey Wardens conscripted you and you have an obligation to them to stop the Archdemon any way you can, up to and including sacrificing yourself. It's that or have to deal with a Grey Warden jihad falling down on your head I guess.

Well, Duncan, and by extention the Grey Wardens, did save the Warden's life. Whether that means he must sacrifice himself to pay that debt is more of a matter of personal opinion. Certainly, the US is the Warden's duty. But very few people can put duty ahead of everything else all the time, and quite often those aren't even nice people. So excuse me if I'm not inclined to consider it a virtue by default. I can understand Shepard having to die in ME3. It's the only way out of the hell the galaxy's in. But the Warden has a perfectly good alternative that he/she doesn't have a reason to believe will end up terribly, specially if he/she trusts or kind of trusts Morrigan.

Seriously, having to face that choice yourself, certain death now, certain death of a friend of yours now, and a proposition that lets everyone (even Urthemiel!) out of it alive at the possible risk of a vague threat in the future... I know what I would do, and I admit is selfish. Whether is wrong, though, is arguable.

Duncan gutted that one dude who wouldn't go through with the Joining, and he was one of the nice Wardens. Imagine what the others would do if you shirked away from your duty to stop the Archdemon when you had the chance and cost a nation of people.

Modifié par The Xand, 14 octobre 2013 - 10:37 .

[Gwydden]

Kashichan823 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

I also can't see why any devout Andrastian warden would do it. My city elf was a pretty firm Andrastian and didn't do it (but he was too afraid to die/decided the alienage needed him and that Anora would be a more practical choice for ruler so he let Alistair take the fall  -- cue life long guilt complex). 

One of my Wardens was also very religious. And so as I understood it the soul of the warden who slays the archdemon and the soul of the archdemon annihilate each other as if they never existed.  And for someone who believes that after death the soul lives on at the makers site he was simply too afraid of sacrificing himself and he agreed on the dark ritual.

It wasn't me who said that xD. But that's another concern: your soul might die forever if you go on with the US.

[Gwydden]

The Xand wrote...

Duncan gutted that one dude who wouldn't go through with the Joining, and he was one of the nice Wardens. Imagine what the others would do if you shirked away from your duty to stop the Archdemon when you had the chance and cost a nation of people.

Indeed, but I wasn't talking about what the Wardens would think, but about what you and I consider right and wrong.

[TurretSyndrome]

agonis wrote...

Quite a risk, if you have to track down your offspring to kill it in the end, if things don´t go as planed...

The motivation for the US doesn´t need to be selfless. It seems selfless, of course but in the end it can be all grudging teeth-grinding: "F*** this! I won´t risk it! All be damned!" *and you die in a mighty Archdemon explosion*
Perhaps there are more epic ways to quit but surely not many...

That is a big "if", especially when you consider what Morrigan told you about the child. He is as innocent as any other child of his age. Maybe he has some power in him that makes him potentially dangerous(hmmm... killing someone for being potentially dangerous, deja vu anyone? ), still there is as much a chance of him becoming the next king of Ferelden. 

An Old God as the King of Ferelden, that would be legen-wait-for-it-dary!

[Kashichan823]

Gwydden wrote...

Kashichan823 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

I also can't see why any devout Andrastian warden would do it. My city elf was a pretty firm Andrastian and didn't do it (but he was too afraid to die/decided the alienage needed him and that Anora would be a more practical choice for ruler so he let Alistair take the fall  -- cue life long guilt complex). 

One of my Wardens was also very religious. And so as I understood it the soul of the warden who slays the archdemon and the soul of the archdemon annihilate each other as if they never existed.  And for someone who believes that after death the soul lives on at the makers site he was simply too afraid of sacrificing himself and he agreed on the dark ritual.

It wasn't me who said that xD. But that's another concern: your soul might die forever if you go on with the US.

Ups sorry... quoting failure ^^