368 réponses à ce sujet

[TurretSyndrome]

Mr.House wrote...

There's nothing allegedly about it. Whatever this cuased the darkspawn is up for debate, however the old gods sending mages to the "golden city" has been comfirmed, you can however debate if it was the true cause of the darkspawn or not. That does not change the fact old gods got mages to commit na act that passes the evi line that then twisted said mages into power monsters.

It's weird how in the codices and the Wikia say that Dumat was the one who first taught the Archon Thalsius, Blood Magic. But then, throughout Origins you hear that demons were the ones who made deals with Mages in return for teaching Blood Magic. 

So I don't know which one to take. Maybe both...

[Seboist]

My Warden wanted to live and get laid.

Easiest choice in the game.

[Steelcan]

Didn't the the magisters say that they likely learned the stuff from the elves?

[Nefla]

Gwydden wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

What happens to it after conception is anything but. I only wished I could have driven her out of the room when she made the proposal, instead of just letting her walk out.

The "child" that just got formed doesn't have a soul. It isn't a person yet. You're basically putting Urthemiel into a soulles body.

I strongly disagree.

No way we'll agree then. Thanks for listening anyway.

I am literally stunned by the civility of that exchange. Is this the internet or isn't it?

[Mr.House]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

There's nothing allegedly about it. Whatever this cuased the darkspawn is up for debate, however the old gods sending mages to the "golden city" has been comfirmed, you can however debate if it was the true cause of the darkspawn or not. That does not change the fact old gods got mages to commit na act that passes the evi line that then twisted said mages into power monsters.

It's weird how in the codices and the Wikia say that Dumat was the one who first taught the Archon Thalsius, Blood Magic. But then, throughout Origins you hear that demons were the ones who made deals with Mages in return for teaching Blood Magic. 

So I don't know which one to take. Maybe both...

To be fair, that is the Chantry. Taking what the Chantry says to heart is like drinking acid and thinking it will give you power.

What Cory said already destroys what the Chantry says even about that event.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Gwydden wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not only do I not want to die, I don't want Urthemiel to die either. The Old Gods are as much victims of the Blight as we are; just because it's a big scary dragon thing doesn't mean I won't save a soul from annihilation if possible.

You do realize that it is very likely the old gods not only started the blight, but are the ones directing the taint from their prisons.

Sooooo... they planned to get tainted and killed? How masochistic is that?

They get released, and direct their horde to wipe out all life. Why is it thst the darkspawn are so obsessed with the old gods? Why do the freed darkspawn claim the old gods are calling and compelling them to release them? Why does the only witness for what happened with the black city specifically name the old gods telling them to go to the "golden city"? How is it that these dragons are placed as leaders of the blight by the taint, enough to actively command their minions through it, rather than simply acting as everything else under the taints influence acts?

There is a lot more evidence pointing to the old gods being evil and using thr blight, than being victims.

[Gallimatia]

Gwydden wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

What happens to it after conception is anything but. I only wished I could have driven her out of the room when she made the proposal, instead of just letting her walk out.

The "child" that just got formed doesn't have a soul. It isn't a person yet. You're basically putting Urthemiel into a soulles body.

Doubtful, we know the embryo can hold a soul as it can hold Urhemiel's soul. Why does it have a soul holder if it doesn't have a soul? Nature is seldom impratical like that. 

[Gwydden]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

For your heavily biased view maybe. Easy to claim the old gods aren't even when you decide to remove it from the possibility in favor of the old gods having brain damage or being impersonated. 

If they wanted the magisters to get screwed, which I agree is a reasonable possibility, then they're either stupid or didn't know what would happen, since they were the ones who suffered the most for the magisters breaking into the Black City.

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why the need to defend them?

The argument arose from the question of whether the OGB would be inherently evil. I don't think a lot of his Urthemiel persona would survive, but I wanted to prove that even if it does, he wouldn't have to be evil by default, even though he could.

Plus, I see no point in thinking the OG are evil when they never did anything to suggest this, though once again, I admit they could be.

[TurretSyndrome]

Seboist wrote...

My Warden wanted to live and get laid. 

Easiest choice in the game.

I'll drink to that! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Mr.House wrote...

To be fair, that is the Chantry. Taking what the Chantry says to heart is like drinking acid and thinking it will give you power.

What Cory said already destroys what the Chantry says even about that event.

Not really. If anything Corypheas' existence and words reinforce what the Chantry preaches about the Darkspawn and the Taint. They may also be in the right, when they say that Blood Magic originates from demons.

One example would be the Desire demon which wanted to possess Connor. She offers to teach you Blood Magic in return for letting her go and allowing her to possess him at a later time. 

Having said that, I won't be surprised if it turns out that demons merely became keepers of old knowledge, such as Blood Magic, while it truly may have originated from the Old Gods themselves, assuming ofcourse that the Old Gods did communicate with the Magisters of the old. 

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 15 octobre 2013 - 02:18 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Gwydden wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

For your heavily biased view maybe. Easy to claim the old gods aren't even when you decide to remove it from the possibility in favor of the old gods having brain damage or being impersonated. 

If they wanted the magisters to get screwed, which I agree is a reasonable possibility, then they're either stupid or didn't know what would happen, since they were the ones who suffered the most for the magisters breaking into the Black City.

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why the need to defend them?

The argument arose from the question of whether the OGB would be inherently evil. I don't think a lot of his Urthemiel persona would survive, but I wanted to prove that even if it does, he wouldn't have to be evil by default, even though he could.

Plus, I see no point in thinking the OG are evil when they never did anything to suggest this, though once again, I admit they could be.

So your taking your personal opinion, and shoving it into a discussion that isn't related to baby boy, mainly the nature of the other old gods, who are still trapped, and probably very resentful towards everyone for living while they remain trapped, unlike baby boy, just so you can win an argument about how baby boy isn't evil by nature.

[Gwydden]

Gallimatia wrote...

Doubtful, we know the embryo can hold a soul as it can hold Urhemiel's soul. Why does it have a soul holder if it doesn't have a soul? Nature is seldom impratical like that. 

We're told the Archdemon's and the Warden's souls mutually destroy each other because a single body can't hold two souls. If so, why would it be different with a child, if not because being just conceived, he doesn't have one?

Also, the appendix is evidence that often nature is not perfect in its designs. It only causes problems. At least a "soul holder" would be of some use. Not to mention that we know you can put souls even into inanimate objects, aka golems.

[TurretSyndrome]

Gwydden wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

Doubtful, we know the embryo can hold a soul as it can hold Urhemiel's soul. Why does it have a soul holder if it doesn't have a soul? Nature is seldom impratical like that. 

We're told the Archdemon's and the Warden's souls mutually destroy each other because a single body can't hold two souls. If so, why would it be different with a child, if not because being just conceived, he doesn't have one?

Also, the appendix is evidence that often nature is not perfect in its designs. It only causes problems. At least a "soul holder" would be of some use. Not to mention that we know you can put souls even into inanimate objects, aka golems.

We can also look at the other possibility. Maybe the ritual allowed for fusion of the two souls? I mean, it happens when a mage is possessed by a demon, so why not here?

[Gwydden]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So your taking your personal opinion, and shoving it into a discussion that isn't related to baby boy, mainly the nature of the other old gods, who are still trapped, and probably very resentful towards everyone for living while they remain trapped, unlike baby boy, just so you can win an argument about how baby boy isn't evil by nature.

I'm sorry, but I'd say "baby boy" it's pretty relevant to a US vs DR discussion. I didn't intend to win an argument by making stuff up, and I apologize if that's what it looked like. Yeah, it's possible that the OG are just leading the Blights as a form of revenge or something, but evidence in the games actually seems to suggest that they're actually victims. I can dig for the exact quotes later if you would have it, and I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong if it is so.

My opinion is merely speculation ,which is all any of us can really do until BioWare sorts it out. It was never meant to be any more than that, and frankly I believe speculation is all we really have when it comes to the OG and the beginnings of the darkspawn.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not only do I not want to die, I don't want Urthemiel to die either. The Old Gods are as much victims of the Blight as we are; just because it's a big scary dragon thing doesn't mean I won't save a soul from annihilation if possible.

Lol

I just

Man, look. This reminds me of when I still had to attend religious school, and there were always these hafiz-claiming, hyper-pious students who would ask things like, "But who prays...for Satan?" Always got me heated, like, "My g, according to this nonsense book we are out here on this wretched dunya instead of living lavish in Jennat-ul-Firdous because of him so what do I look like wasting precious minutes making dua for him and his team. Nah, I light him up with whatever incantations, I'll say min ash-shaytaan i'r-rajeem and laugh as he goes up in smoke."

F*ck a "big scary dragon thing." Save it indeed. Yeah okay sis, but when the big scary dragon comes to kill ME, who gon help me out? Who gon save...me?

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 15 octobre 2013 - 02:36 .

[Gwydden]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

We can also look at the other possibility. Maybe the ritual allowed for fusion of the two souls? I mean, it happens when a mage is possessed by a demon, so why not here?

Maybe, but Fade spirits are pretty unique. And in the case of possession, it isn't a fussion, at least not always.

Also, about Corypheus tale reinforcing the Chantry's version: yes and no. Corypheus seems to claim the Black City was already black when they arrived, for example, which openly contradicts the Chantry version.

Modifié par Gwydden, 15 octobre 2013 - 02:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not only do I not want to die, I don't want Urthemiel to die either. The Old Gods are as much victims of the Blight as we are; just because it's a big scary dragon thing doesn't mean I won't save a soul from annihilation if possible.

What?

What do you mean, what? Does that need elaboration?

If I must, my two Wardens have different reasons for doing so. My mage is driven by academic curiosity and the drive to seek forgotten lore; she sacrificed the Anvil of the Void and the chance to drink dragons' blood because both would make Leliana sad, but having a perserved, non-imprisoned Old God is just too potentially impressive to throw away. She'd have done the ritual even without the threat of death hanging over her (although she has no intention of dying, ever, if she can avoid it anyway).

My Dalish also doesn't want to die, nor does she want to kill Alistair. She also has no stake in the Old Gods vs. Maker business that the Chantry speaks of; all she knows is that they're powerful imprisoned dragon things that seem to be sapient, and I genuinely think that she'd do anything to save any being from the darkspawn taint; having felt it herself, and worse, seeing what it eventually did to Tamlen... she would never want to see another being die forever in that state, if salvation was at all possible.

This reminds me of when I still had to attend religious school, and
there were always these hafiz-claiming, hyper-pious students who would
ask things like, "But who prays...for Satan?"

I think that kid was literally me, except my religious education thing was Catholic and I just thought Satan had gotten a raw deal.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 octobre 2013 - 02:31 .

[Direwolf0294]

Sacrifice yourself to save the world verse selfishly ensuring your own life by bringing the anti-christ into the world. It seems a pretty simple decision for any hero to make.

[Gwydden]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Sacrifice yourself to save the world verse selfishly ensuring your own life by bringing the anti-christ into the world. It seems a pretty simple decision for any hero to make.

And yet again, that of "hero" is a very subjective term.

It's rather easy to ask sacrifice of other people.

Modifié par Gwydden, 15 octobre 2013 - 02:33 .

[Xilizhra]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Sacrifice yourself to save the world verse selfishly ensuring your own life by bringing the anti-christ into the world. It seems a pretty simple decision for any hero to make.

There's no reason to automatically assume it'd be evil.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that kid was literally me, except my religious education thing was Catholic and I just thought Satan had gotten a raw deal.

I also went to Catholic school. It was the same deal too, except the nuns slapped the devils out of the offenders before they could finish the sentence o jare.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Gwydden wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So your taking your personal opinion, and shoving it into a discussion that isn't related to baby boy, mainly the nature of the other old gods, who are still trapped, and probably very resentful towards everyone for living while they remain trapped, unlike baby boy, just so you can win an argument about how baby boy isn't evil by nature.

I'm sorry, but I'd say "baby boy" it's pretty relevant to a US vs DR discussion. I didn't intend to win an argument by making stuff up, and I apologize if that's what it looked like. Yeah, it's possible that the OG are just leading the Blights as a form of revenge or something, but evidence in the games actually seems to suggest that they're actually victims. I can dig for the exact quotes later if you would have it, and I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong if it is so.

My opinion is merely speculation ,which is all any of us can really do until BioWare sorts it out. It was never meant to be any more than that, and frankly I believe speculation is all we really have when it comes to the OG and the beginnings of the darkspawn.

I would like that, very much. I feel that while the old god baby may or may not be a blank slate and therefore have room for being good or evil, the actual old gods probably have gone too long to be redeemed.

[TurretSyndrome]

Gwydden wrote...

Maybe, but Fade spirits are pretty unique. And in the case of possession, it isn't a fussion, at least not always.

Also, about Corypheus tale reinforcing the Chantry's version: yes and no. Corypheus seems to claim the Black City was already black when they arrived, for example, which openly contradicts the Chantry version.

Well, I was only talking about the entering the Black City and bringing the Taint to the world parts. But, my bad for not being specific. 

[Br3admax]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

Sacrifice yourself to save the world verse selfishly ensuring your own life by bringing the anti-christ into the world. It seems a pretty simple decision for any hero to make.

This statement makes no sense. Especially because of the way it works. Stop talking.

Anyway, I always do the Dark Ritual. I usually romance Morrigan, so at that point there is really no reason not to, 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I don't like Morrigan and I can deny her what she wants and give Loghain his redemption at the same time.

It is very much a win win.