368 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Oh and I would welcome the community's own point of view on this as well, especially from those who chose the ending and still abide by it even after all these years, like me. 

The US is not my canon play, but the time I did do it I decided that my Warden wanted to sacrifice herself for Alistair. I have this head canon for that scene: Alistair and Warden stand there a moment after the Archdemon is brought down, they exchange a determined look and start racing to make the final blow on the Archdemon; she knocks him back with magic which he isn't expecting, and before he recovers she has made the final blow. The moment she saw Riordan fall to his death she knew what she was going to do.

I didn't describe it very well, but it's fun in my head.

Unfortunately, this can't actually be played out, because if there is no Dark Ritual, and Alistair is in love with the Warden, regardless if he is made king or not, he will take the final blow and you don't have a choice. So the only way to rig it is to leave him at the gate, which obviously doesn't fall in line with my imagined scene. *sigh* Ah well...

Modifié par nightscrawl, 15 octobre 2013 - 02:51 .

[Gwydden]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I would like that, very much. I feel that while the old god baby may or may not be a blank slate and therefore have room for being good or evil, the actual old gods probably have gone too long to be redeemed.

Here are a couple quotes. As is usual with lore in DA, is fallible, but this is where I got my earlier notion:

No one knows what it is that drives the darkspawn in their relentless
search for the sleeping Old Gods. Perhaps it is instinct, as moths will
fly into torch flames. Perhaps there is some remnant of desire for
vengeance upon the ones who goaded the magisters to assault heaven.
Whatever the reason, when darkspawn find one of these ancient dragons,
it is immediately afflicted by the taint. It awakens twisted and
corrupted, and leads the darkspawn in a full-scale invasion of the land:
a Blight.

What the Old Gods actually are and their relation to the Maker is very
mysterious. It is unknown if one predates the other. The Old Gods are
not creators and although they exist outside the Chantry’s pantheon, the
people of ancient Tevinter do attribute the creation of the world to
the Maker (although by a different name). The Chantry teaches that the Old Gods were false deities. They turned mortals from worship of the Maker, recognized as the "First Sin". As a result, the Maker imprisoned them underground. Their minds continued to roam the Fade like any other dreaming individuals' mind would, and they were able to contact the Magisters and teach them to use magic in hope that the magisters might free them. It was for this reason that the magisters entered the Golden City in a failed attempt to usurp the Maker's throne, inadvertently causing the First Blight.

The Architect, a sentient darkspawn emissary in Dragon Age: Awakening,
describes the call of the Old Gods as a "terribly beautiful sound". He
goes on to consider darkspawn existence and their pursuit for the
ancient dragons as a never-ending aspiration towards a perfection they
can never have, as it is corrupted in the instant they touch it.

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly
because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based
in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the
Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of
the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though
this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry)
the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they
were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the
Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic.
According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard
for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his
own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden
City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had
abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old
Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships
that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker
actually being absent.

Modifié par Gwydden, 15 octobre 2013 - 02:53 .

[Boycott Bioware]

My Dalish Warden did it because her boyfriend is dead, she is forced to become Grey Warden, her clan cast her away, she is short lived because of the taint, she saw how Tamlen is at his end, she will be haunted by nightmares for the rest of her life, she can't get pregnant, she's an Elf she know no matter what no one care because no one care Garahel defeat the Archdemon in the last Blight, there is nothing in the world for her anymore, so there is no reason to live, just make suicide

[Silfren]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

My US wardens pick it because it's the one tried and tested way of ending a blight. That and they don't trust Morrigan as far as they can throw Shale.

That and some of them have little else to live for (particularly the human nobles) so they see it as a means to have their legacy and family name live on despite it being nearly or completely destroyed.

Edit: Also the warden did need a army to fight the archedemon true. But the archedemon also had a army. Soloing an army is idiocy.

You're not forging a blade, you're sacrificing a life. To hear you say that you will do so as the method has been tested and verified before, is like hearing a Templar only wishing to force Tranquility on Mages just because it works.

.....Whatever you personally think, there is no comparison at all between choosing the Ultimate Sacrifice, and templars and Tranquility.  How you can think there's any correlation is mind-boggling.  Having a Warden make that killing blow is a known way of destroying the archdemon permanently and ending that season's Blight.  Of course it's a more trustworthy alternative than the DR that nobody knows anything about.

I'm in the camp that is suspicious of what Morrigan is up to.  Forget the meta about what she may or may not be planning, in the moment, she is acting more than a little suspicious given that she won't tell you what her plans are...and we are talking about an Old God.  Any Warden worth their salt would be suspicious of this.  Choosing to sacrifice yourself, or allowing Alistair or Loghain make it instead, is a noble goal.  It's not suicide for the sake of it, it's following through on the only way to kill the archdemon, and accepting that the loss of someone's life is the price to pay.  

I don't understand why this would be confusing to people.  Even if you yourself choose to take Morrigan at her word and aren't suspicious, the basis for those suspicions are obvious, I should think. Is it really that hard to fathom why someone might think it was a more worthy and honorable thing to kill the archdemon by a means that doesn't leave any possible/potential threats hanging over Thedas' collective head, rather than take a risky path that might actually do that?  The one path is a known guarantee, the other is not...and you can't understand why people think the one is more morally acceptable?

[Xilizhra]

.....Whatever you personally think, there is no comparison at all between choosing the Ultimate Sacrifice, and templars and Tranquility. How you can think there's any correlation is mind-boggling. Having a Warden make that killing blow is a known way of destroying the archdemon permanently and ending that season's Blight. Of course it's a more trustworthy alternative than the DR that nobody knows anything about.

If the DR fails, you'll die anyway, so that's still not a worse alternative than the US.

I don't understand why this would be confusing to people. Even if you yourself choose to take Morrigan at her word and aren't suspicious, the basis for those suspicions are obvious, I should think. Is it really that hard to fathom why someone might think it was a more worthy and honorable thing to kill the archdemon by a means that doesn't leave any possible/potential threats hanging over Thedas' collective head, rather than take a risky path that might actually do that? The one path is a known guarantee, the other is not...and you can't understand why people think the one is more morally acceptable?

I can understand why. The same way I can understand why some people would rather leave mages safely in the hands of the templars. It doesn't mean I'll agree in any way.

[Silfren]

Gallimatia wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

What happens to it after conception is anything but. I only wished I could have driven her out of the room when she made the proposal, instead of just letting her walk out.

The "child" that just got formed doesn't have a soul. It isn't a person yet. You're basically putting Urthemiel into a soulles body.

Doubtful, we know the embryo can hold a soul as it can hold Urhemiel's soul. Why does it have a soul holder if it doesn't have a soul? Nature is seldom impratical like that. 

Well, having sex is not a guarantee of getting pregnant, of course...a completed conception is harder than many people realize, and the odds of getting pregnant on the first (and only) go are pretty low.  So I always figured it meant that part of Morrigan's DR involved magic that guaranteed pregnancy as the outcome, and that this baby, due to its origins, wouldn't have any soul at all but the Old God soul.  So, say, if after the DR was done, the archdemon managed to win the battle and eat the Wardens before going on to raze Ferelden and then destroy the rest of Thedas, poor Morrigan's stuck with a pregnancy that has no chance of a soul now.

Modifié par Silfren, 15 octobre 2013 - 03:26 .

[Gwydden]

Silfren wrote...

.....Whatever you personally think, there is no comparison at all between choosing the Ultimate Sacrifice, and templars and Tranquility.  How you can think there's any correlation is mind-boggling.  Having a Warden make that killing blow is a known way of destroying the archdemon permanently and ending that season's Blight.  Of course it's a more trustworthy alternative than the DR that nobody knows anything about.

I'm in the camp that is suspicious of what Morrigan is up to.  Forget the meta about what she may or may not be planning, in the moment, she is acting more than a little suspicious given that she won't tell you what her plans are...and we are talking about an Old God.  Any Warden worth their salt would be suspicious of this.  Choosing to sacrifice yourself, or allowing Alistair or Loghain make it instead, is a noble goal.  It's not suicide for the sake of it, it's following through on the only way to kill the archdemon, and accepting that the loss of someone's life is the price to pay.  

I don't understand why this would be confusing to people.  Even if you yourself choose to take Morrigan at her word and aren't suspicious, the basis for those suspicions are obvious, I should think. Is it really that hard to fathom why someone might think it was a more worthy and honorable thing to kill the archdemon by a means that doesn't leave any possible/potential threats hanging over Thedas' collective head, rather than take a risky path that might actually do that?  The one path is a known guarantee, the other is not...and you can't understand why people think the one is more morally acceptable?

It certainly is noble to sacrifice yourself for a greater good, but that doesn't make anyone who choses not to do it selfish, or a coward, or less of a hero. That's the point I, and I believe also several of the others here, are trying to make.

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

.....Whatever you personally think, there is no comparison at all between choosing the Ultimate Sacrifice, and templars and Tranquility. How you can think there's any correlation is mind-boggling. Having a Warden make that killing blow is a known way of destroying the archdemon permanently and ending that season's Blight. Of course it's a more trustworthy alternative than the DR that nobody knows anything about.

If the DR fails, you'll die anyway, so that's still not a worse alternative than the US.

And has nothing at all to do with my point, so why you're bringing it up is a good question, since the DR failing is not part of the equation at all.

Modifié par Silfren, 15 octobre 2013 - 03:19 .

[Xilizhra]

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

.....Whatever you personally think, there is no comparison at all between choosing the Ultimate Sacrifice, and templars and Tranquility. How you can think there's any correlation is mind-boggling. Having a Warden make that killing blow is a known way of destroying the archdemon permanently and ending that season's Blight. Of course it's a more trustworthy alternative than the DR that nobody knows anything about.

If the DR fails, you'll die anyway, so that's still not a worse alternative than the US.

And has nothing at all to do with my point, so why you're bringing it up is a good question, since the DR failing is not part of the equation at all.

If you're only worried about Morrigan... one could be, but I neither am nor think it's a good idea to be.

[Gallimatia]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

Doubtful, we know the embryo can hold a soul as it can hold Urhemiel's soul. Why does it have a soul holder if it doesn't have a soul? Nature is seldom impratical like that. 

We're told the Archdemon's and the Warden's souls mutually destroy each other because a single body can't hold two souls. If so, why would it be different with a child, if not because being just conceived, he doesn't have one?

Also, the appendix is evidence that often nature is not perfect in its designs. It only causes problems. At least a "soul holder" would be of some use. Not to mention that we know you can put souls even into inanimate objects, aka golems.

We can also look at the other possibility. Maybe the ritual allowed for fusion of the two souls? I mean, it happens when a mage is possessed by a demon, so why not here?

Or that one of the peculiarities of the Dark Ritual is that it creates an embryo without a soul as suggested above by Silfren. I like that theory. That a normal embryo would not have one in the setting still strikes me as rather out there. I can't make sense of when an individual gets one if so.

As for golems a lot of work goes into making those. Rocks do not naturally hold souls but with special anvils, lyrium and what not you can give stone the soul holding property and make golems. Maybe Morrigan can do the same to embryos with rituals and magic but I think it's a simpler explanation that they already have it.

[Xilizhra]

Or that one of the peculiarities of the Dark Ritual is that it creates an embryo without a soul as suggested above by Silfren. I like that theory. That a normal embryo would not have one in the setting still strikes me as rather out there. I can't make sense of when an individual gets one if so.

I'd say a soul just develops along with all the other parts, personally, and that an embryo after one night has no soul to speak of.

[Silfren]

Gwydden wrote...

Silfren wrote...

.....Whatever you personally think, there is no comparison at all between choosing the Ultimate Sacrifice, and templars and Tranquility.  How you can think there's any correlation is mind-boggling.  Having a Warden make that killing blow is a known way of destroying the archdemon permanently and ending that season's Blight.  Of course it's a more trustworthy alternative than the DR that nobody knows anything about.

I'm in the camp that is suspicious of what Morrigan is up to.  Forget the meta about what she may or may not be planning, in the moment, she is acting more than a little suspicious given that she won't tell you what her plans are...and we are talking about an Old God.  Any Warden worth their salt would be suspicious of this.  Choosing to sacrifice yourself, or allowing Alistair or Loghain make it instead, is a noble goal.  It's not suicide for the sake of it, it's following through on the only way to kill the archdemon, and accepting that the loss of someone's life is the price to pay.  

I don't understand why this would be confusing to people.  Even if you yourself choose to take Morrigan at her word and aren't suspicious, the basis for those suspicions are obvious, I should think. Is it really that hard to fathom why someone might think it was a more worthy and honorable thing to kill the archdemon by a means that doesn't leave any possible/potential threats hanging over Thedas' collective head, rather than take a risky path that might actually do that?  The one path is a known guarantee, the other is not...and you can't understand why people think the one is more morally acceptable?

It certainly is noble to sacrifice yourself for a greater good, but that doesn't make anyone who choses not to do it selfish, or a coward, or less of a hero. That's the point I, and I believe also several of the others here, are trying to make.

I'm not arguing against that, though.  I'm questioning the OP's argument that there's something wrong with sacrificing a life, when the cost/benefit analysis argument is kind of obvious.  Sacrificing yourself (or Loghain or Alistair) eliminates the threat cleanly, with no unknowns.  The other option does not.  Seriously, what's there to wonder about why someone would think that the loss of one life in self-sacrifice is the better option?

[Xilizhra]

I'm not arguing against that, though. I'm questioning the OP's argument that there's something wrong with sacrificing a life, when the cost/benefit analysis argument is kind of obvious. Sacrificing yourself (or Loghain or Alistair) eliminates the threat cleanly, with no unknowns. The other option does not. Seriously, what's there to wonder about why someone would think that the loss of one life in self-sacrifice is the better option?

You're annihilating two souls to do so, which strikes me as a rather painfully high cost.

[TurretSyndrome]

Silfren wrote...

.....Whatever you personally think, there is no comparison at all between choosing the Ultimate Sacrifice, and templars and Tranquility.  How you can think there's any correlation is mind-boggling.  Having a Warden make that killing blow is a known way of destroying the archdemon permanently and ending that season's Blight.  Of course it's a more trustworthy alternative than the DR that nobody knows anything about.

I'm in the camp that is suspicious of what Morrigan is up to.  Forget the meta about what she may or may not be planning, in the moment, she is acting more than a little suspicious given that she won't tell you what her plans are...and we are talking about an Old God.  Any Warden worth their salt would be suspicious of this.  Choosing to sacrifice yourself, or allowing Alistair or Loghain make it instead, is a noble goal.  It's not suicide for the sake of it, it's following through on the only way to kill the archdemon, and accepting that the loss of someone's life is the price to pay.  

Both paths end the Blight, but I think I understand what you mean. To you, it's irrelevent what Morrigan says to assure you, even if she says that the child will not turn into an Archdemon or into any other form of threat, you decided that you just won't believe her. 

Did I get that part of your roleplay right?

My reason for the Templar-Mage analogy is that if your Warden decides to sacrifice Alistair or Loghain, he/she would do so simply to avoid a threat which the child may or may not become so. That's what I meant when I said it's like Templars turning Mages to Tranquil just to be safe.

Silfren wrote...
I don't understand why this would be confusing to people.  Even if you yourself choose to take Morrigan at her word and aren't suspicious, the basis for those suspicions are obvious, I should think. Is it really that hard to fathom why someone might think it was a more worthy and honorable thing to kill the archdemon by a means thatdoesn't leave any possible/potential threats hanging over Thedas' collective head, rather than take a risky path that might actually do that?  The one path is a known guarantee, the other is not...and you can't understand why people think the one is more morally acceptable?

Um... I did mention that I understand that person's choice to do so, as otherwise it wouldn't be roleplaying. 

Also, just out of curiosity, what was your approval rating on her?

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 15 octobre 2013 - 04:03 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not arguing against that, though. I'm questioning the OP's argument that there's something wrong with sacrificing a life, when the cost/benefit analysis argument is kind of obvious. Sacrificing yourself (or Loghain or Alistair) eliminates the threat cleanly, with no unknowns. The other option does not. Seriously, what's there to wonder about why someone would think that the loss of one life in self-sacrifice is the better option?

You're annihilating two souls to do so, which strikes me as a rather painfully high cost.

Yes because the giant eviiiil death dragon is just something to be cried over.

Like a mecha-cuttlefish!

...Actually no, kill it and call it a job well done.

[Sylvius the Mad]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

 And another was depressed, and viewed the Ultimate Sacrifice as an opportunity for release from his suffering.

I am pleasently surprised by this answer. This would be a very interesting cause. Although, I am a bit confused 
by the other two reasons you've provided. 

How would it be kind to other wardens if you choose to do it? If the Dark Ritual option wasn't present, then I'd understand, but you were given the opportunity to save everyone's lives, as well as yours. Not only that, but by choosing to live, you'd be a living icon to other wardens as well as your countrymen don't you think?

Same goes for the other warden you mentioned. His/her duty would be to defeat the Archdemon. In normal circumstances, death would be the price they pay, it is not part of the duty, atleast that's what I think of it. 

I hope I'm not sounding judgemental of your choices, I'm merely curious.

The duty-bound waren saw the dark ritual as reckless, and the kind-hearted warden never trusted Morrigan even a little bit.

[Br3admax]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not arguing against that, though. I'm questioning the OP's argument that there's something wrong with sacrificing a life, when the cost/benefit analysis argument is kind of obvious. Sacrificing yourself (or Loghain or Alistair) eliminates the threat cleanly, with no unknowns. The other option does not. Seriously, what's there to wonder about why someone would think that the loss of one life in self-sacrifice is the better option?

You're annihilating two souls to do so, which strikes me as a rather painfully high cost.

Yes because the giant eviiiil death dragon is just something to be cried over.

Like a mecha-cuttlefish!

...Actually no, kill it and call it a job well done.

No, if you can bend something to your will, then it is always good to not waste resources. A child with so mucb potential that I could control the development of could be quite useful. And if not, it can still be killed, and much more easily. 

[AlanC9]

Gallimatia wrote...

Or that one of the peculiarities of the Dark Ritual is that it creates an embryo without a soul as suggested above by Silfren. I like that theory. That a normal embryo would not have one in the setting still strikes me as rather out there. I can't make sense of when an individual gets one if so.

Not all RL religions hold that the soul is injected or created at conception. I'm not aware of any Chantry teachings on the matter.

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 octobre 2013 - 03:44 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Br3ad wrote...


No, if you can bend something to your will, then it is always good to not waste resources. A child with so mucb potential that I could control the development of could be quite useful. And if not, it can still be killed, and much more easily. 

Unlike Xil I don't get a rush out of controlling the big bad archdemon/Reapers.

You kill it you know it is no longer a threat.

Death is wonderfully final like that.

[werewoof]

i've never done the ultimate sacrifice because i could never justify it with any of my wardens. i couldn't come up with a legit reason to go through with it. usually they make friends with morrigan, so the trust argument is out the window. and even my more noble wardens wouldn't want to just ditch everyone to be a martyr. it's consensual, non-romantic sex out of necessity so it never felt like "cheating" on my LI and arguably martyring onesself is a worse thing to do to said li than have a one night stand with morrigan. from a narrative and characterization standpoint it never made sense.

i guess it boils down to your warden's personality. i know there were a lot of alistair fans who refused it because they couldn't bear to see him with morrigan. to each their own but that always confused me because its like a 10 second scene and him or your warden biting it doesnt really strike me as an improvement but heeey.

it reminded me of the sacrifice bit in fallout 3, where you have three different radiation-immune companions who could pop in there and push three buttons with no great loss and everyone's alright and there's no arbitrary martyrdom necessary but they all just suddenly have a weird contrived reason to not do it so you can heroically die. or if you have broken steel, so you can go into a coma and/or ron perlman can condescend to you about letting the person most suited for the job push the three whole buttons.

if inquisition has some sort of ultimate sacrifice -esque option, i really hope it's less forced, like stronger narrative reasons to go through with it beyond just "its more dramatic if you're a martyr"

[TurretSyndrome]

Silfren wrote...
I'm not arguing against that, though.  I'm questioning the OP's argument that there's something wrong with sacrificing a life, when the cost/benefit analysis argument is kind of obvious.  Sacrificing yourself (or Loghain or Alistair) eliminates the threat cleanly, with no unknowns.  The other option does not.  Seriously, what's there to wonder about why someone would think that the loss of one life in self-sacrifice is the better option?

I wasn't really arguing with anyone. When I said that I don't accept the "suspicious of Morrigan" reason to be enough to kill the Warden or the others, I meant and also mentioned that it wasn't enough reason for me to do it, even though I was initially tempted to do it.

That's why I said that I understand the person's decision if they think it is enough to go for US, even if I don't agree with it. It would've been an argument if I had said otherwise.

[Silfren]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I'm not arguing against that, though.  I'm questioning the OP's argument that there's something wrong with sacrificing a life, when the cost/benefit analysis argument is kind of obvious.  Sacrificing yourself (or Loghain or Alistair) eliminates the threat cleanly, with no unknowns.  The other option does not.  Seriously, what's there to wonder about why someone would think that the loss of one life in self-sacrifice is the better option?

I wasn't really arguing with anyone. When I said that I don't accept the "suspicious of Morrigan" reason to be enough to kill the Warden or the others, I meant and also mentioned that it wasn't enough reason for me to do it, even though I was initially tempted to do it.

That's why I said that I understand the person's decision if they think it is enough to go for US, even if I don't agree with it. It would've been an argument if I had said otherwise.

FYI, I was using 'argue' in its debating/discussing sense, not suggesting that you were fighting about anything.

[Silfren]

AlanC9 wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

Or that one of the peculiarities of the Dark Ritual is that it creates an embryo without a soul as suggested above by Silfren. I like that theory. That a normal embryo would not have one in the setting still strikes me as rather out there. I can't make sense of when an individual gets one if so.

Not all RL religions hold that the soul is injected or created at conception. I'm not aware of any Chantry teachings on the matter.

FYI, this is a particularly dangerous topic to get into. I vote we not.

[Allan Schumacher]

If the DR fails, you'll die anyway, so that's still not a worse alternative than the US.

I imagine most people's concerns lie with the Dark Ritual succeeding, and the unknown that that may provide. There's a lot of potential badness that could happen that could be much worse with the existence of that baby.

FYI, this is a particularly dangerous topic to get into. I vote we not.

Seconded.  Thank you!

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 15 octobre 2013 - 04:14 .

[Xilizhra]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If the DR fails, you'll die anyway, so that's still not a worse alternative than the US.

I imagine most people's concerns lie with the Dark Ritual succeeding, and the unknown that that may provide. There's a lot of potential badness that could happen that could be much worse with the existence of that baby.

Worse than the archdemon? I'm not seeing a great deal that'd be worth soul annihilation.