368 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Br3ad wrote...


No, if you can bend something to your will, then it is always good to not waste resources. A child with so mucb potential that I could control the development of could be quite useful. And if not, it can still be killed, and much more easily. 

Unlike Xil I don't get a rush out of controlling the big bad archdemon/Reapers.

You kill it you know it is no longer a threat.

Death is wonderfully final like that.

What Xil says is more about saving, not controlling. I want to be able to use any advantage possible. And given Legacy, killing an archdemon may not be so finite. holding it's soul inside a child is much more predictable. 

[Reznore57]

I really don't understand how the DR can be such an easy choice.
I grew fond of Morrigan so it got harder to play a character who turn her down , I mean she's obviously lonely and never had friends.
But she's also Flemeth daughter and can be quite heartless.

She's always willing to sacrifice people she doesn't value .
She would plea to save Sten , because he show strenght but circle mages /slaves etc can just die.
I don't agree with that at all , but it begs the question , wouldn't she save an old powerful being even if it means people will die?

[Allan Schumacher]

Worse than the archdemon?

Sure, why not?  The archdemon is dying regardless.  It's more the consequences of the Dark Ritual and whether or not it is worth the sacrifice of the Warden.

I'm not seeing a great deal that'd be worth soul annihilation.

You don't have any real idea on what the Dark Ritual ultimately achieves however. Perhaps it is the catalyst for orders of magnitudes more souls being annihilated than just the Warden's.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 15 octobre 2013 - 04:25 .

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If the DR fails, you'll die anyway, so that's still not a worse alternative than the US.

I imagine most people's concerns lie with the Dark Ritual succeeding, and the unknown that that may provide. There's a lot of potential badness that could happen that could be much worse with the existence of that baby.

Worse than the archdemon? I'm not seeing a great deal that'd be worth soul annihilation.

From a Warden's standpoint, there's the threat of the Old God itself.  YOU don't necessarily see the Old God as a threat, I get that.  But you need to consider that many people do think that Old Gods are dangerous and possibly just flat out evil, and this just from players' interpretation of the lore. People who roleplay the story from an in-universe standpoint have characters who have every reason to be suspicious of Morrigan's idea, especially if they rp Chantry loyalists, or at least characters who have internalized Chantry doctrine even.  Or they could rp characters just flat out mistrustful of anything that came out of Tevinter. 

There's plenty of reasons to think the sacrifice of one life would be far preferable to Morrigan's alternative.

[Auintus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Worse than the archdemon?

Sure, why not?  The archdemon is dying regardless.  It's more the consequences of the Dark Ritual and whether or not it is worth the sacrifice of the Warden.

I'm not seeing a great deal that'd be worth soul annihilation.

You don't have any real idea on what the Dark Ritual ultimately achieves however. Perhaps it is the catalyst for orders of magnitudes more souls being annihilated than just the Warden's.

...But it could also lead to something better than just my warden surviving...right? 

[Allan Schumacher]

...But it could also lead to something better than just my warden surviving...right?

It certainly could be (I honestly don't know how it all plays out). It's a bit of a leap of faith for the player to have to make at the end of DAO, which is why I think it's an interesting choice.

[dragonflight288]

Auintus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Worse than the archdemon?

Sure, why not?  The archdemon is dying regardless.  It's more the consequences of the Dark Ritual and whether or not it is worth the sacrifice of the Warden.

I'm not seeing a great deal that'd be worth soul annihilation.

You don't have any real idea on what the Dark Ritual ultimately achieves however. Perhaps it is the catalyst for orders of magnitudes more souls being annihilated than just the Warden's.

...But it could also lead to something better than just my warden surviving...right? 

I don't think he'll tell us.

I think the odds are that Morrigan won't be able to control the kid. She's not an old god and she's raising a child with the soul of one. Only untainted.

This old god could easily lead to the rise of another Imperium, with or without the magisters. Maybe something truly heinous. Morrigan is a cold individual. She wn't care unless it affects those she truly cares about (like the Warden.)

[Silfren]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

...But it could also lead to something better than just my warden surviving...right?

It certainly could be (I honestly don't know how it all plays out). It's a bit of a leap of faith for the player to have to make at the end of DAO, which is why I think it's an interesting choice.

I always thought it was a great ending for Origins, for all the drmatic potential.  Unfortunately since it was always an optional choice, Gaider used to say there was no way to implement the OGB in a future storyline--and this is true, given all the problems inherent of dealing with such a major decision, and not wanting to relegate something with such explosive potential to a minor side story. 

Now it seems to be that there's talk of re-visiting the OGB storyline anyway.   I'm not sure how this would work well, though, since the original concerns are still in place.

[Reznore57]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't think he'll tell us.

I think the odds are that Morrigan won't be able to control the kid. She's not an old god and she's raising a child with the soul of one. Only untainted.

This old god could easily lead to the rise of another Imperium, with or without the magisters. Maybe something truly heinous. Morrigan is a cold individual. She wn't care unless it affects those she truly cares about (like the Warden.)

Well the quote about Morrigan getting to a more "human" place in DAI give me hope that if you treated her well , she may learn about empathy.(and then the DA Writers are having a field day and turn that into a weakness that gets her killed , of course!)

[TurretSyndrome]

Silfren wrote...
FYI, I was using 'argue' in its debating/discussing sense, not suggesting that you were fighting about anything.

Ah, well, in that case, my reason for choosing the Dark Ritual over the Ultimate Sacrifice is that I feel that it is not worth sacrificing any of the Wardens now, simply because of what may happen in the future. Again, to me, this is very similar to a Templar wanting to turn Mages into Tranquil simply because he fears of what may happen to that Mage in the future.

As far as why my Warden decided to do it, it's a bit more complicated. This was a decision carefully made by my Warden after having figured out a part of what Flemeth and Morrigan were trying to obtain, which was the Old God's essence. Even though it is not known what they would do with it, for him(as well as for me), it is not worth sacrifing any of his fellow Wardens.

Not to mention, he also understands that anything could happen in battle. Both the Wardens may die before even reaching the Archdemon, if they're unlucky. At that point, even if the Archdemon was slain by someone who is not a Grey Warden, the Old God's soul will still be lured into the child. 

Having said that, my own Warden's reasoning to choose the Dark Ritual was also to secure a chance at gaining an heir with Theirin blood for the throne, by having Alistair perform the ritual, not just saving the life of whoever kills the Archdemon.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 15 octobre 2013 - 04:48 .

[animedreamer]

 The first and only time I did it I thought Reordan was going to live long enough to do it... after a eventful scene though I realized I was screwed, so next I wanted Alistar to do it but I can't remember if it just made me do it or if Alistar died before striking the final blow... I think I romanced Alistair too, so Yeah Alistair never married and ruled alone, the Theiron line ends with him.

[Silfren]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Silfren wrote...
FYI, I was using 'argue' in its debating/discussing sense, not suggesting that you were fighting about anything.

Ah, well, in that case, my reason for choosing the Dark Ritual over the Ultimate Sacrifice is that I feel that it is not worth sacrificing any of the Wardens now, simply because of what may happen in the future. Again, to me, this is very similar to a Templar wanting to turn Mages into Tranquil simply because he fears of what may happen to that Mage in the future.

As far as why my Warden decided to do it, it's a bit more complicated. This was a decision carefully made by my Warden after having figured out a part of what Flemeth and Morrigan were trying to obtain, which was the Old God's essence. Even though it is not known what they would do with it, for him(as well as for me), it is not worth sacrifing any of his fellow Wardens.

Not to mention, he also understands that anything could happen in battle. Both the Wardens may die before even reaching the Archdemon, if they're unlucky. At that point, even if the Archdemon was slain by someone who is not a Grey Warden, the Old God's soul will still be lured into the child. 

Having said that, my own Warden's reasoning to choose the Dark Ritual was also to secure a chance at gaining an heir with Theirin blood for the throne, by having Alistair perform the ritual, not just saving the life of whoever kills the Archdemon.

For me, this is the utmost silliest reason to do the DR.  Not only is there no necessity in having a Theirin on the throne, I am reasonably sure that none of Morrigan's plans involved this at all.  But it's kind of odd reasoning anyway, since Alistair himself isn't interested in having his Theirin-blooded OGB sit the throne.  Why would the Warden think it so important?

[AlanC9]

Agreed, though I can see a Warden thinking that Anora would be an unacceptable queen, offering more of the same unprincipled leadership that damn near ruined everything. That's how the guy I'm using for an avatar here went US -- he'd boxed himself in with the DR and Loghain already, so it was him or Alistair. (He didn't do the DR for similar reasons - he saw Morrigan's plan as the same reckless tampering with the universe that had caused the Blights in the first place)

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 octobre 2013 - 05:29 .

[TurretSyndrome]

Silfren wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Silfren wrote...
FYI, I was using 'argue' in its debating/discussing sense, not suggesting that you were fighting about anything.

Ah, well, in that case, my reason for choosing the Dark Ritual over the Ultimate Sacrifice is that I feel that it is not worth sacrificing any of the Wardens now, simply because of what may happen in the future. Again, to me, this is very similar to a Templar wanting to turn Mages into Tranquil simply because he fears of what may happen to that Mage in the future.

As far as why my Warden decided to do it, it's a bit more complicated. This was a decision carefully made by my Warden after having figured out a part of what Flemeth and Morrigan were trying to obtain, which was the Old God's essence. Even though it is not known what they would do with it, for him(as well as for me), it is not worth sacrifing any of his fellow Wardens.

Not to mention, he also understands that anything could happen in battle. Both the Wardens may die before even reaching the Archdemon, if they're unlucky. At that point, even if the Archdemon was slain by someone who is not a Grey Warden, the Old God's soul will still be lured into the child. 

Having said that, my own Warden's reasoning to choose the Dark Ritual was also to secure a chance at gaining an heir with Theirin blood for the throne, by having Alistair perform the ritual, not just saving the life of whoever kills the Archdemon.

For me, this is the utmost silliest reason to do the DR.  Not only is there no necessity in having a Theirin on the throne, I am reasonably sure that none of Morrigan's plans involved this at all.  But it's kind of odd reasoning anyway, since Alistair himself isn't interested in having his Theirin-blooded OGB sit the throne.  Why would the Warden think it so important?

The last bit is my roleplay Warden if you noticed. Anyway, the reason for that is pretty simple. Without an heir to the throne, Ferelden would yet again fall to chaos, either because of civil war or invasion of Orleis, probably both. My Warden is a Human Noble, and he knows this all too well. But the most basic reason would be that he doesn't want a nation to fall apart after all the pains it has gone through to survive the Blight. So regardless of what might happen in the future, Ferelden still has a better chance now than it did without any possible heir.

But this is really one of the smaller reasons that drove him towards this decision. He had Alistair perform the Dark Ritual specifically since a child of Theirin blood is more valuable to Ferelden than his own.

I also forgot to mention something in my previous post. Another reason he would allow Morrigan to have the child so that he may be used as a sort of ammunition against Flemeth . But this is really a gamble. If Flemeth gets hold of the boy, it's game over for both Morrigan and the Warden. It's kind of like the risk Flemeth took by sending Morrigan with you in the first place.

[Aolbain]

Because Morrigan is not to be freaking trusted.

[Lotion Soronarr]

agonis wrote...

The Ultimate Sacrifice didn´t feel so very ultimate to me... There you wander around for a year trying to save everybody from the blight and then when it is obvious that this will cost either your life (big surprise) or your integrity... how is that a difficult choice? The same with letting Alistair do it. He became king in my playtrough. My character wasn´t keen on sacrificing himself but how was he supossed to let Alistair die, if he has so much to rebuild in Ferelden... Life is not everything, I believe.

I think it's "ultimate" because it will not only kill you, it also destroys your soul.
Not even an afterlife for your poor Warden.

[agonis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

agonis wrote...

The Ultimate Sacrifice didn´t feel so very ultimate to me... There you wander around for a year trying to save everybody from the blight and then when it is obvious that this will cost either your life (big surprise) or your integrity... how is that a difficult choice? The same with letting Alistair do it. He became king in my playtrough. My character wasn´t keen on sacrificing himself but how was he supossed to let Alistair die, if he has so much to rebuild in Ferelden... Life is not everything, I believe.

I think it's "ultimate" because it will not only kill you, it also destroys your soul.
Not even an afterlife for your poor Warden.

I know. But it was still worth it for me. Someone stated it before: Killing the Archdemon is the Warden´s duty. My Warden didn´t think of himself as a Warden. Duncan recruited him to safe his life and because he saw some potential in him, not because he volunteered.
But in the end only two people could finish the job. And even if he didn´t feel very Wardenlike, for him it was still his responsibility. It would have been anyones responsibility who could get it done, Warden or not.
It didn´t feel ultimate because there was a plan. Dying was only the first part, the much more important part was killing that Archdemon and securing Ferelden a king to lead it out of chaos. Because this is Alistairs responsibility.
That´s why it doesn´t feel like a ultimate sacrifice to me but doing your duty.

Modifié par agonis, 15 octobre 2013 - 08:23 .

[9TailsFox]

I like how companions affect game. for me Ultimate sacrifice wasn't even decision.
I romanced Morrigan, so now cons only pros. not die, sex, dragonborn kid.

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I think it's "ultimate" because it will not only kill you, it also destroys your soul.
Not even an afterlife for your poor Warden.

I don't think there's much evidence for an afterlife in Thedas, though.  Of course if your character is religious then that's a big deal to them.

[TurretSyndrome]

Wulfram wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I think it's "ultimate" because it will not only kill you, it also destroys your soul.
Not even an afterlife for your poor Warden.

I don't think there's much evidence for an afterlife in Thedas, though.  Of course if your character is religious then that's a big deal to them.

There is. Go read the IDW comics. Not technically Thedas but there is proof of afterlife in the world of Dragon Age.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 15 octobre 2013 - 10:58 .

[Little Princess Peach]

So the god baby is not an Archdemon but something else?

[Xilizhra]

Tharja wrote...

So the god baby is not an Archdemon but something else?

Right. It's untainted.

[TurretSyndrome]

That's right, he's untainted, but is he immune to it? We don't know yet.

[Gwydden]

He does have Grey Warden blood. And even if he isn't immune, there is no reason for him to be more vulnerable to it than the average Thedosian.

[nightscrawl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You don't have any real idea on what the Dark Ritual ultimately achieves however. Perhaps it is the catalyst for orders of magnitudes more souls being annihilated than just the Warden's.

Yepper. In my normal plays, I do the DR so I can save both my Warden and Alistair. She has no illusions that she's being selfish in this.