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[Silfren]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Silfren wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Silfren wrote...
FYI, I was using 'argue' in its debating/discussing sense, not suggesting that you were fighting about anything.

Ah, well, in that case, my reason for choosing the Dark Ritual over the Ultimate Sacrifice is that I feel that it is not worth sacrificing any of the Wardens now, simply because of what may happen in the future. Again, to me, this is very similar to a Templar wanting to turn Mages into Tranquil simply because he fears of what may happen to that Mage in the future.

As far as why my Warden decided to do it, it's a bit more complicated. This was a decision carefully made by my Warden after having figured out a part of what Flemeth and Morrigan were trying to obtain, which was the Old God's essence. Even though it is not known what they would do with it, for him(as well as for me), it is not worth sacrifing any of his fellow Wardens.

Not to mention, he also understands that anything could happen in battle. Both the Wardens may die before even reaching the Archdemon, if they're unlucky. At that point, even if the Archdemon was slain by someone who is not a Grey Warden, the Old God's soul will still be lured into the child. 

Having said that, my own Warden's reasoning to choose the Dark Ritual was also to secure a chance at gaining an heir with Theirin blood for the throne, by having Alistair perform the ritual, not just saving the life of whoever kills the Archdemon.

For me, this is the utmost silliest reason to do the DR.  Not only is there no necessity in having a Theirin on the throne, I am reasonably sure that none of Morrigan's plans involved this at all.  But it's kind of odd reasoning anyway, since Alistair himself isn't interested in having his Theirin-blooded OGB sit the throne.  Why would the Warden think it so important?

The last bit is my roleplay Warden if you noticed. Anyway, the reason for that is pretty simple. Without an heir to the throne, Ferelden would yet again fall to chaos, either because of civil war or invasion of Orleis, probably both. My Warden is a Human Noble, and he knows this all too well. But the most basic reason would be that he doesn't want a nation to fall apart after all the pains it has gone through to survive the Blight. So regardless of what might happen in the future, Ferelden still has a better chance now than it did without any possible heir.

But this is really one of the smaller reasons that drove him towards this decision. He had Alistair perform the Dark Ritual specifically since a child of Theirin blood is more valuable to Ferelden than his own.

I also forgot to mention something in my previous post. Another reason he would allow Morrigan to have the child so that he may be used as a sort of ammunition against Flemeth . But this is really a gamble. If Flemeth gets hold of the boy, it's game over for both Morrigan and the Warden. It's kind of like the risk Flemeth took by sending Morrigan with you in the first place.

The thing is, though, that the political setup of Ferelden is designed to deal with the lack of a blood heir.  While the tradition has apparently been that a Theirin has sat the throne ever since the days of Calenhad, the goverment is set up so that the monarch is elected by the Landsmeet, not born.  It appears that the nobility was perfectly happy to recognize Cailan (probably, I figure, because Anora was already recognized as a capable ruler).  But if an heir were not to be had, it isn't as though there isn't a system in place to select another one.  There'd probably be bickering and, yes, possibly another civil war, but that doesn't change the fact that the monarchy is an elected one, so it stands to reason this potentiality is something the Landsmeet is prepared to deal with.  This being the case, presumably any monarch without an heir (a sensible monarch with Ferelden's interest in mind) would put forth a candidate for the throne in the eventuality of not leaving an heir.  I think both Alistair and Anora would do this, honestly.

I do have to point out that if your Warden's thought was that the presence of another Theirin heir would somehow prevent civil war...that guy just didn't think it through.  Morrigan has this child, it's not exactly going to grow up in the royal house of Ferelden.  It's preposterous to think a sudden heir could show up, never having been seen before, and take the throne of Ferelden without any fuss.  This is NOT the way to prevent civil war or agitation over a throne, this is how you cause it!

[Silfren]

Gwydden wrote...

He does have Grey Warden blood. And even if he isn't immune, there is no reason for him to be more vulnerable to it than the average Thedosian.

Well, being a Grey Warden isn't a genetic condition--people aren't born Wardens, I mean.  We don't know that anything about being a Warden gets passed on that way.  'But really, I don't understand why it could be said that there's no reason for the OGB to be more vulnerable than the average person, given that the entire premise of the DA universe is that Old Gods become tainted and rise as archdemons the moment they are awakened by darkspawn.  I should think that this possibility would be somewhere near the top of the list of things to worry about.

[Former_Fiend]

I always figured Bioware's reasoning for going with the Ultimate Sacrifice as their personal canon was simple; that way they don't have to write around the warden.

[General TSAR]

bEVEsthda wrote...

The answers to all those questions are up to you. Aren't they?
It was your Warden. If you role-played your Warden, you should know what went on in the head.

It's really that simple, plus some of us hate that witch.

[Fardreamer]

I've always thought that the best possible ending was letting Logain become a Grey Warden and sacrificing himself by killing the Archdemon. The only problem with it is that Alistair HATES you if you spare him. Even if he becomes the king with Anora, he gives this big speech how the Warden is no friend of his any longer and storms off. Why does he have to be such a baby?

So, I go with the Ultimate Sacrifice because it's the only one that doesn't involve an evil ritual that keeps everyone happy. But realistically, the Redeemer ending is the best.

[Silfren]

Fardreamer wrote...

I've always thought that the best possible ending was letting Logain become a Grey Warden and sacrificing himself by killing the Archdemon. The only problem with it is that Alistair HATES you if you spare him. Even if he becomes the king with Anora, he gives this big speech how the Warden is no friend of his any longer and storms off. Why does he have to be such a baby?

So, I go with the Ultimate Sacrifice because it's the only one that doesn't involve an evil ritual that keeps everyone happy. But realistically, the Redeemer ending is the best.

As an aside, I can understand Alistair's anger on that issue.  Yes, he's being unreasonable, and yes, it's true that he ought to be able to rise above his personal feelings and see the pragmatism of having another Warden on hand.  But from the standpoint of his character, Alistair's freakout is completely understandable and a natural extension of his personality and experience.  I wish more people would take a step back and look at the matter from his perspective rather than just dismissing him out of hand. 

Back to the actual subject, Alistair relaxes quite a bit if Loghain dies in killing the archdemon.  It's true enough that things don't end up quite the same, but he does relent.  He even states flat out that he's not angry any more.  The only time he stays angry and hateful toward the Warden is if Loghain survives due to the DR.  I've even heard that it is feasible to maintain a romance with him if you have maxed out his approval, and have maxed coercion/pesuasian.  Never been able to verify it, though.

Modifié par Silfren, 15 octobre 2013 - 03:52 .

[dragonflight288]

Fardreamer wrote...

I've always thought that the best possible ending was letting Logain become a Grey Warden and sacrificing himself by killing the Archdemon. The only problem with it is that Alistair HATES you if you spare him. Even if he becomes the king with Anora, he gives this big speech how the Warden is no friend of his any longer and storms off. Why does he have to be such a baby?

So, I go with the Ultimate Sacrifice because it's the only one that doesn't involve an evil ritual that keeps everyone happy. But realistically, the Redeemer ending is the best.

I wouldn't go that far. Alistair only hates Loghain, he cools considerably if Loghain dies. Things aren't the same...but he's a lot more friendly.

I personally think Alistair's extreme emotions come down to survivor's guilt, and he places all the blame for what he lost at Ostagar (Duncan, and to a lesser extent, the Grey Wardens. Cailan's death is only mentioned in passing or in Return to Ostagar) on Loghain's shoulders.

[Reznore57]

Well Loghain is more or less responsible for the death of his father figure , and he tries to get you killed a couple of time.
He also got his uncle poisonned , his step brother killed.
Also put a bounty on Wardens in Ferelden.

So I'm never shocked about Alistair being pissed off if you spare Loghain , besides if I remember correctly you can kill Alistair and no one bats an eye...
Alistair only crime is having a claim to the throne .
The poor guy is used like a tool all along and you can still deny him what he thinks is justice.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Fardreamer wrote...

I've always thought that the best possible ending was letting Logain become a Grey Warden and sacrificing himself by killing the Archdemon. The only problem with it is that Alistair HATES you if you spare him. Even if he becomes the king with Anora, he gives this big speech how the Warden is no friend of his any longer and storms off. Why does he have to be such a baby?

So, I go with the Ultimate Sacrifice because it's the only one that doesn't involve an evil ritual that keeps everyone happy. But realistically, the Redeemer ending is the best.

I wouldn't go that far. Alistair only hates Loghain, he cools considerably if Loghain dies. Things aren't the same...but he's a lot more friendly.

I personally think Alistair's extreme emotions come down to survivor's guilt, and he places all the blame for what he lost at Ostagar (Duncan, and to a lesser extent, the Grey Wardens. Cailan's death is only mentioned in passing or in Return to Ostagar) on Loghain's shoulders.

I'm not sure I'd attribute his hatred of Loghain mostly to survivor's guilt, though it's plain that Alistair does suffer from that.  Beyond Loghain's treachery at Ostagar, Alistair also remembers the way that Loghain outright schemed against him and the Warden, even to the point of sending out assassins after them.  It's not all entirely irrational.

[Dave of Canada]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

...But it could also lead to something better than just my warden surviving...right?

It certainly could be (I honestly don't know how it all plays out). It's a bit of a leap of faith for the player to have to make at the end of DAO, which is why I think it's an interesting choice.

Personally; that's my problem with it. We know nothing of the choice, it's introduced at the very end and we're supposed to pick one variable and go with it. Dark Ritual has some negative connotations but we're not given enough details to formulate any of the consequences.

Everything being an unknown is fine but dragging it out for two games and having Morrigan show up to go "btw it isn't as bad as you think it is" has led people to have various degrees of interpretations of the events, solving the DR will just lead to disappointment for a large group of people because most of the predicting going on could go any direction.

[TurretSyndrome]

Silfren wrote...


The thing is, though, that the political setup of Ferelden is designed to deal with the lack of a blood heir.  While the tradition has apparently been that a Theirin has sat the throne ever since the days of Calenhad, the goverment is set up so that the monarch is elected by the Landsmeet, not born.  It appears that the nobility was perfectly happy to recognize Cailan (probably, I figure, because Anora was already recognized as a capable ruler).  But if an heir were not to be had, it isn't as though there isn't a system in place to select another one.  There'd probably be bickering and, yes, possibly another civil war, but that doesn't change the fact that the monarchy is an elected one, so it stands to reason this potentiality is something the Landsmeet is prepared to deal with.  This being the case, presumably any monarch without an heir (a sensible monarch with Ferelden's interest in mind) would put forth a candidate for the throne in the eventuality of not leaving an heir.  I think both Alistair and Anora would do this, honestly.

I do have to point out that if your Warden's thought was that the presence of another Theirin heir would somehow prevent civil war...that guy just didn't think it through.  Morrigan has this child, it's not exactly going to grow up in the royal house of Ferelden.  It's preposterous to think a sudden heir could show up, never having been seen before, and take the throne of Ferelden without any fuss.  This is NOT the way to prevent civil war or agitation over a throne, this is how you cause it!

The Freeholders indeed elect their ruler but that depends on how much support the person gathers from them. If it's not enough or at half way, it will almost always come to a civil war. You can check out Fereldan history and law and you'll understand it's all about the size of your army and the support you have. Even if you become king, your rule is not absolute, that is how Ferelden is, and is also why it makes it the most interesting place to me, compared to others in Thedas.

Alistair is the bastard son of Maric, who barely ever knew any nobles apart from his two uncles, yet his blood allowed him to challenge both Anora and Loghain. The unlikely heir to the throne was then made the King of Ferelden overnight. My point is, anything could happen. My Warden now brought in a new card to the table, that is all I'm saying. I'm not denying he's making a significant gamble with a lot of variables, but there you go.

[Heimdall]

My main Warden chose the dark ritual because he trusted Morrigan... He a was a bit naive like that...

[Chari]

My main dalish warden did it because of respect to Ashabellanar. She hated Morrigan but hoped that Flemeth would eventually find the kid and raise it
Plus Alitair is needed as a king and soul annihiliation is the worst death possible. Literally no worse...
And as was said by one b...witch, some things are worth preserving

[Gwydden]

Fardreamer wrote...

I've always thought that the best possible ending was letting Logain become a Grey Warden and sacrificing himself by killing the Archdemon. The only problem with it is that Alistair HATES you if you spare him. Even if he becomes the king with Anora, he gives this big speech how the Warden is no friend of his any longer and storms off. Why does he have to be such a baby?

So, I go with the Ultimate Sacrifice because it's the only one that doesn't involve an evil ritual that keeps everyone happy. But realistically, the Redeemer ending is the best.

I can see how some people might think that's the best ending. However, I am not of the opinion that Loghain deserves to die, and letting him do it in the Warden's stead seems pretty cowardly to me, even more so than going with the DR. Maybe it's just I actually like Loghain, and as a general rule, in my canon/main playthroughs I try to leave as many people alive as possible.

[Gwydden]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

The Freeholders indeed elect their ruler but that depends on how much support the person gathers from them. If it's not enough or at half way, it will almost always come to a civil war. You can check out Fereldan history and law and you'll understand it's all about the size of your army and the support you have. Even if you become king, your rule is not absolute, that is how Ferelden is, and is also why it makes it the most interesting place to me, compared to others in Thedas.

Alistair is the bastard son of Maric, who barely ever knew any nobles apart from his two uncles, yet his blood allowed him to challenge both Anora and Loghain. The unlikely heir to the throne was then made the King of Ferelden overnight. My point is, anything could happen. My Warden now brought in a new card to the table, that is all I'm saying. I'm not denying he's making a significant gamble with a lot of variables, but there you go.

It is stated that after Maric's dissapearence a lot of people considered Bryce Cousland a better option for king than Cailan. For all we know, the only reason he wasn't elected was that he was too much of a royalist to partake in it, not to mention that Anora, though almost a commoner, proved a capable enough ruler to balance out Cailan's incompetence. Alistair was a reasonable candidate not only for his blood, but also because he had Eamon's and the Grey Warden's support, while Anora was the daugther of the man who started the civil war in the middle of an invasion. The proof is that Alistair cannot succeed without the Warden's support. So I don't think blood has as much weight in Ferelden as you might believe.

[Gwydden]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Personally; that's my problem with it. We know nothing of the choice, it's introduced at the very end and we're supposed to pick one variable and go with it. Dark Ritual has some negative connotations but we're not given enough details to formulate any of the consequences.

Everything being an unknown is fine but dragging it out for two games and having Morrigan show up to go "btw it isn't as bad as you think it is" has led people to have various degrees of interpretations of the events, solving the DR will just lead to disappointment for a large group of people because most of the predicting going on could go any direction.

Learning the consequences of a choice doesn't invalidate it. Otherwise, you'll be metagaming.

[TK514]

The "untainted" result of the DR doesn't track for me. Given it's been a while since I saw the scene, but the whole point was to have a Warden baby for the ritual to work, right?

Archdemon dies and go is into nearest tainted body. If a Grey Warden is nearest, AD enters them due to tainted nature, both annihilated.

If GW baby nearby, AD enters it like a normal Darkspawn.

So why wouldn't the kid be tainted? The key to the transfer is the taint, otherwise, Morrigan could have done the deed with any random sperm donor and left the whole world in the dark.

"It's magic" only takes me so far when the cause effect and reasoning for the donor choice are already pretty internally consistent.

Anyhow, I trust Morrigan with a kid about as much as I trust a box of agitated asps with my hand, so a Warden was going to die, regardless. Pretty much had to be my a Warden at that point, because Alistair needed to go be king and such.

[Silfren]

Gwydden wrote...

Fardreamer wrote...

I've always thought that the best possible ending was letting Logain become a Grey Warden and sacrificing himself by killing the Archdemon. The only problem with it is that Alistair HATES you if you spare him. Even if he becomes the king with Anora, he gives this big speech how the Warden is no friend of his any longer and storms off. Why does he have to be such a baby?

So, I go with the Ultimate Sacrifice because it's the only one that doesn't involve an evil ritual that keeps everyone happy. But realistically, the Redeemer ending is the best.

I can see how some people might think that's the best ending. However, I am not of the opinion that Loghain deserves to die, and letting him do it in the Warden's stead seems pretty cowardly to me, even more so than going with the DR. Maybe it's just I actually like Loghain, and as a general rule, in my canon/main playthroughs I try to leave as many people alive as possible.

Which is funny, because it always seemed clear to me that Loghain WANTED to go to his death.  It's almost a mercy to send him to the archdemon, and it's plain that this is something he wants, rather than just something the Warden pushes on him.

[Silfren]

TK514 wrote...

The "untainted" result of the DR doesn't track for me. Given it's been a while since I saw the scene, but the whole point was to have a Warden baby for the ritual to work, right?

Archdemon dies and go is into nearest tainted body. If a Grey Warden is nearest, AD enters them due to tainted nature, both annihilated.

If GW baby nearby, AD enters it like a normal Darkspawn.

So why wouldn't the kid be tainted? The key to the transfer is the taint, otherwise, Morrigan could have done the deed with any random sperm donor and left the whole world in the dark.

"It's magic" only takes me so far when the cause effect and reasoning for the donor choice are already pretty internally consistent.

Anyhow, I trust Morrigan with a kid about as much as I trust a box of agitated asps with my hand, so a Warden was going to die, regardless. Pretty much had to be my a Warden at that point, because Alistair needed to go be king and such.

I see your point, and it does smack of a cop-out, but we are talking about magic, here.  Somehow the ritual "tricks" the soul into going where Morrigan wants it to.  A detailed explanation of how the ritual works precisely, and what the mechanics are of needing a newly tainted Warden, and how this taint is somehow erased, would be nice, but I find the use of magic sufficient to suspend my disbelief over.

Of course, there's also the possibility that Morrigan wasn't being fully honest, and the Warden didn't ask enough questions.  =)

[JamieCOTC]

At the time my main Warden did the DR as she figured she would deal with the consequences later. Had she known she was going to disappear without a trace, she would have picked the US. ;P

[ScarMK]

Silfren wrote...

I see your point, and it does smack of a cop-out, but we are talking about magic, here.  Somehow the ritual "tricks" the soul into going where Morrigan wants it to.  A detailed explanation of how the ritual works precisely, and what the mechanics are of needing a newly tainted Warden, and how this taint is somehow erased, would be nice, but I find the use of magic sufficient to suspend my disbelief over.

Of course, there's also the possibility that Morrigan wasn't being fully honest, and the Warden didn't ask enough questions.  =)

I always assumed the mother's womb prevented the child from contracting the taint and that Morrigan's ritual was a combo of a pregnancy spell and some spell that make the child contract the taint.  After all, she says it could be considered blood magic and the taint does usually involve blood.

[Dave of Canada]

Gwydden wrote...

Learning the consequences of a choice doesn't invalidate it. Otherwise, you'll be metagaming.

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the Dark Ritual has terrible foreshadowing; you're presented with the choice and the writers basically say to fill in the blanks, it isn't like the Harrowmont / Bhelen choice where all information is presented to the player and they come up with their own conclusion. We need more information to make a sound choice but we're provided with "hey, do you want to live?"

Everyone who picked the Dark Ritual because they wanted to live / love Morrigan will complain if something bad happens because they didn't see it coming.
Everyone who picked the Ultimate Sacrifice will complain if something good happens because they didn't see it coming.

Both sides should have consequences introduced to the player and allow us to deal with them (rather than dishing them out and we're forced to accept them) because without foreshadowing, we've done the decision blind.

I'd argue that Dark Ritual should have negative consequences (as you trade off your Warden's death for something worse down the line) but that's an entirely different matter.

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

My US wardens pick it because it's the one tried and tested way of ending a blight. That and they don't trust Morrigan as far as they can throw Shale.

That and some of them have little else to live for (particularly the human nobles) so they see it as a means to have their legacy and family name live on despite it being nearly or completely destroyed.

Edit: Also the warden did need a army to fight the archedemon true. But the archedemon also had a army. Soloing an army is idiocy.

You're not forging a blade, you're sacrificing a life. To hear you say that you will do so as the method has been tested and verified before, is like hearing a Templar only wishing to force Tranquility on Mages just because it works.

.....Whatever you personally think, there is no comparison at all between choosing the Ultimate Sacrifice, and templars and Tranquility.  How you can think there's any correlation is mind-boggling.  Having a Warden make that killing blow is a known way of destroying the archdemon permanently and ending that season's Blight.  Of course it's a more trustworthy alternative than the DR that nobody knows anything about.

I'm in the camp that is suspicious of what Morrigan is up to.  Forget the meta about what she may or may not be planning, in the moment, she is acting more than a little suspicious given that she won't tell you what her plans are...and we are talking about an Old God.  Any Warden worth their salt would be suspicious of this.  Choosing to sacrifice yourself, or allowing Alistair or Loghain make it instead, is a noble goal.  It's not suicide for the sake of it, it's following through on the only way to kill the archdemon, and accepting that the loss of someone's life is the price to pay.  

I don't understand why this would be confusing to people.  Even if you yourself choose to take Morrigan at her word and aren't suspicious, the basis for those suspicions are obvious, I should think. Is it really that hard to fathom why someone might think it was a more worthy and honorable thing to kill the archdemon by a means that doesn't leave any possible/potential threats hanging over Thedas' collective head, rather than take a risky path that might actually do that?  The one path is a known guarantee, the other is not...and you can't understand why people think the one is more morally acceptable?

Yeah this. I have no idea WHERE the mage and templar comparison came from.

[The Elder King]

@Dave of Canada: I wouldn't actually have problems with the DR having negative consequences, and I did it in the majority of playthroughs (including my canon where my Warden romances Morrigan). I'm more interested in having real consequences based on my choices that to care if those consequences are positive or negative (not to mention that I thought since Morrigan explained the DR that it might have negative consequences on Thedas).

[Ryzaki]

Gwydden wrote...
Your Wardens seem a little bit miserable xD. It must be my Tyrion Lannister like philosophy that life is full of possibilities, while death is final, but even if it is unintended, most of mine really like living. DC? He won't leave his family alone and he plans to show those nobles who's boss.  HM? Best year of his life so far, he's finally out of the Circle and has big plans for his future. HN? He won't be the last of the Couslands; he will carry on his family name, even if only to prove Howe wrong.

My HN is. He/she believes themselves to be a infertile last of their line. They've lost everything and everyone they cared about and they have little to look forward to thanks to being a grey warden they're just tired of living at that point. And my Cousland feels they already proved Howe wrong by kicking his ass and killing the archedemon.

Those are just my US though.