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Mass Effect 4 and the lessons learned from ME3


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#251
AlanC9

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shingara wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Drew K. dug the hole that ME fell into.


 Really, mind expanding upon that, what hole is this exactly. Nearly everything drew put into 2 was ripped out minus the tali line.


If you mean that they took out the dark energy plot, then sure. I never thought that was any good in the first place (more on that if you like). What else got removed?

But I was specifically referring to ME1 saddling the Reapers with a crazy plan. Even if you like the dark energy plot as a solution to this problem, that's a solution for a problem Drew created himself.

#252
KwangtungTiger

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AlanC9 wrote...

shingara wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Drew K. dug the hole that ME fell into.


 Really, mind expanding upon that, what hole is this exactly. Nearly everything drew put into 2 was ripped out minus the tali line.


If you mean that they took out the dark energy plot, then sure. I never thought that was any good in the first place (more on that if you like). What else got removed?

But I was specifically referring to ME1 saddling the Reapers with a crazy plan. Even if you like the dark energy plot as a solution to this problem, that's a solution for a problem Drew created himself.


I dont understand how you can say that when the Reapers are so vague in ME1? They pretty much tell you your to stupid to understand their motives or reason. Not much is ever discussed other than the cycle it self.

#253
AlanC9

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KwangtungTiger wrote...
I dont understand how you can say that when the Reapers are so vague in ME1? They pretty much tell you your to stupid to understand their motives or reason. Not much is ever discussed other than the cycle it self.


The problem is that the cycle is non-rational. The Reapers don't tell you their reason because Drew hadn't thought of one yet.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 octobre 2013 - 11:53 .


#254
shingara

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AlanC9 wrote...

shingara wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Drew K. dug the hole that ME fell into.


 Really, mind expanding upon that, what hole is this exactly. Nearly everything drew put into 2 was ripped out minus the tali line.


If you mean that they took out the dark energy plot, then sure. I never thought that was any good in the first place (more on that if you like). What else got removed?

But I was specifically referring to ME1 saddling the Reapers with a crazy plan. Even if you like the dark energy plot as a solution to this problem, that's a solution for a problem Drew created himself.



 Just a min, if they took everything out of 2 that drew put in minus the tali mission that they couldnt be bothered to redo how in the hell do you know you dont like it. That is by far the most ludicrus thing i have heard. you have just basically said ye that thing i never did, couldnt stand it.


 And no matter how you look at reapers from ME1, you just need a bigger **** gun to shoot them with. simples.

Modifié par shingara, 16 octobre 2013 - 11:48 .


#255
Wulfram

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I don't think technological singularity was actually a bad choice as a "why" of the reapers. It was just the execution was horrible - mostly because they didn't really do a good job explaining and exploring the concept beforehand (the Geth Dyson sphere was a great opportunity to do just that, but it's virtually ignored), partly because it seemed like the writers either didn't get it or didn't think people would get it, so it seemed like it was dumbed down to just the Frankenstein story of rebelling against creators.

As a concept I certainly prefer it to the Dark Energy stuff.

#256
FlamingBoy

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bioware tends to learn their "lessons" wrong, I think it has something to do with their "we're listening"

#257
AlanC9

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shingara wrote...

 Just a min, if they took everything out of 2 that drew put in minus the tali mission that they couldnt be bothered to redo how in the hell do you know you dont like it. That is by far the most ludicrus thing i have heard. you have just basically said ye that thing i never did, couldnt stand it.


Huh? All I said was that I don't think the dark energy plot was ever any good. Since I don't know what other magical Drew K. stuff was cut, I will express no opinion on it until someone tells me what it is.

Ho ahead. What other eonders of Drew's imagination did we miss.

 And no matter how you look at reapers from ME1, you just need a bigger **** gun to shoot them with. simples.


I know you've got a point here, but I can't imagine what it is.

#258
shingara

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AlanC9 wrote...

shingara wrote...

 Just a min, if they took everything out of 2 that drew put in minus the tali mission that they couldnt be bothered to redo how in the hell do you know you dont like it. That is by far the most ludicrus thing i have heard. you have just basically said ye that thing i never did, couldnt stand it.


Huh? All I said was that I don't think the dark energy plot was ever any good. Since I don't know what other magical Drew K. stuff was cut, I will express no opinion on it until someone tells me what it is.

Ho ahead. What other eonders of Drew's imagination did we miss.

 And no matter how you look at reapers from ME1, you just need a bigger **** gun to shoot them with. simples.


I know you've got a point here, but I can't imagine what it is.



 Drew came up with mass effect so thats one thing on his side, ye know just saying. There was one i might have enjoyed and that was the full cyborg shep, well maybe not shep but i would loved to have had a spin off game with a cyborg or a crew member who is a cyborg. As in the half and half that synthesis trys to impose via brute force. there was a race of them, the zinti i think they were called.

 But as for ideas they have tobe worked out, drew never got the chance and instead was put to work on the swtor rpg/pve element gameplay which he pulled of brilliantly.  i do find it comical that you spruce stuff drew might have done as magical gif gaf when we are talking about a game that is basically all magical gif gaf.

 For me the basis of dark energy makes alot more sense then what we have, a giant reaper thats gonna swim through space, an AI so powerful that it can control the reapers but cant even turn on a lightswitch in its own body. But ye lets get to that AI a bit more. not only is it able to impose an image of an actual child whilst awake to shepard it can get into there dreams, it can do this but not do anything else, also it can only do this to shepard, odd that isnt it.

 Harbringer, you remember him, well ye pointless in 3, he is just another reaper now. Another thing the citidel, it so important and its the master of all the reapers but they are more concerned with earth. Now why is this, in every other harvest the citidel is the 1st thing attacked, its the base of all government for the advanced races, it holds all data on all races and planets and its the hub of where all fleeing refugees and most of the armed forces goto yet its ignored.  And this is ignoring the fact its the main mass relay.


 As for my point with the gun, its simple, the reapers are not invincible, they can be killed via brute force and tactics that are varied and random. The fact one was killed by a worm shows that. The leviathons introduced in 3 also cause more problems then they serve, they can control reapers yet at one point there were no reapers and just an AI and they managed to get pawned and harvested to create a reaper that then went on and pawned the bulk of the other leviathons. I think not.

 So all they had todo was find a way to stop the signal, which cerb did and get a gun that actual hurts the reapers which they never tried todo.

Modifié par shingara, 17 octobre 2013 - 12:18 .


#259
KwangtungTiger

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AlanC9 wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...
I dont understand how you can say that when the Reapers are so vague in ME1? They pretty much tell you your to stupid to understand their motives or reason. Not much is ever discussed other than the cycle it self.


The problem is that the cycle is non-rational. The Reapers don't tell you their reason because Drew hadn't thought of one yet.


Still........that shouldn't be a hit against ME1. There were 5 years in between the release of ME1 and ME3. The writers could have easily come up with whatever they needed to. Blaming Drew is really unfair.

Modifié par KwangtungTiger, 17 octobre 2013 - 12:19 .


#260
Mathias

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A sequel trilogy that ignores the events of the first, or some kind of spiritual successor to Mass Effect is the best course of action imo. I just want to immerse myself and fall in love with this universe again, and pretend Mass Effect 3 doesn't exist. Because so many fans look at that ending as huge taint on the series, that the further away from Shepard and the events of the trilogy Bioware takes the next game, the better. Good move imo.

#261
KeraWildmane

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dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

and the answer to that is JJ Abrahams star trek

Just reboot the damn thing and don't **** up again


(laughs)

Tell that to all the Trekkies who think Abrams ruined the franchise with terrible writing and plot holes.


He turned Star Trek into Star Wars, damnit! That is unforgivable! he even put R2-D2 in both of the new films! Blasphemy, I tell you! Blasphemy!

#262
Iakus

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Mdoggy1214 wrote...

A sequel trilogy that ignores the events of the first, or some kind of spiritual successor to Mass Effect is the best course of action imo. I just want to immerse myself and fall in love with this universe again, and pretend Mass Effect 3 doesn't exist. Because so many fans look at that ending as huge taint on the series, that the further away from Shepard and the events of the trilogy Bioware takes the next game, the better. Good move imo.


Like I've said recently:  Turn Shepard into a fictional character within the Mass Effect universe.  Like Blasto.  You can even go all meta have it mentioned how controversial Shep's last adventure was.

#263
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Grandpa telling a story to his grandson. "All that happened so very long ago."
"Will I ever get to the stars?"
"One day, my sweet. Out there there are billions of stars, and there are billions of worlds each with a story all its own."
"Tell me another story about The Shepard."
"It's getting late, but alright. One more story."

#264
AlanC9

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KwangtungTiger wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The problem is that the cycle is non-rational. The Reapers don't tell you their reason because Drew hadn't thought of one yet.


Still........that shouldn't be a hit against ME1. There were 5 years in between the release of ME1 and ME3. The writers could have easily come up with whatever they needed to. Blaming Drew is really unfair.


How is it unfair? Writing something silly and hoping you can write your way out of it later is bad planning even if you do manage to write your way out of it later. And neither Drew nor anyone else actually managed to write their way out of it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 octobre 2013 - 05:07 .


#265
shingara

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AlanC9 wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The problem is that the cycle is non-rational. The Reapers don't tell you their reason because Drew hadn't thought of one yet.


Still........that shouldn't be a hit against ME1. There were 5 years in between the release of ME1 and ME3. The writers could have easily come up with whatever they needed to. Blaming Drew is really unfair.


How is it unfair? Writing something silly and hoping you can write your way out of it later is bad planning even if you do manage to write your way out of it later. And neither Drew nor anyone else actually managed to write their way out of it.


 it might simply be the case that drew didnt need to re write it and had a solid idea how togo forward, i mean i dont know the reasons drew was moved from this bioware to the swtor bioware ( as them being different offices/studios) and what promted walters to become lead writer. buts obvious to see that what ever drew had in mind for mass effect was not the thing walters had in mind for mass effect.

#266
AlanC9

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The only problem with that hypothesis is that Drew denies it's true. He said they had a DE plot outline, but they were never actually committed to that outline; it was merely one of several possibilities.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 octobre 2013 - 05:45 .


#267
shingara

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AlanC9 wrote...

shingara wrote...

 it might simply be the case that drew didnt need to re write it and had a solid idea how togo forward, i mean i dont know the reasons drew was moved from this bioware to the swtor bioware ( as them being different offices/studios) and what promted walters to become lead writer. buts obvious to see that what ever drew had in mind for mass effect was not the thing walters had in mind for mass effect.



The only problem with that hypothesis is that Drew denies it's true.
He said they an outline, but they were never actually committed to that
outline; it was one of several possibilities.

Other than that, feel free to believe it.


Edit for edit, we dont know what plans he ultimatly had or what lines he was going to go towards, we have ideas but no solid facts. All we know is that drew left, me2 got reworked and walters was put in charge.

 Im not sure what your disputing btw, that drew is capable of finishing a story or that he and walters dont have different ideas for the direction of mass effect.

Modifié par shingara, 17 octobre 2013 - 05:46 .


#268
AlanC9

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shingara wrote...

 What hypothesis, that drew knew what he was going todo ?, whos to say he didnt and when did he denie he knows what hes doing, or the fact he was moved from this bioware to swtor bioware ?


See edit above. It was "vague and not fleshed out, it was something we considered but we ended up going in a different direction." What we do know about the idea made even less sense than what we got.

So what I'm disputing is that he had a "solid idea," unless the only thing you meant by "solid" is that you liked the idea. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 octobre 2013 - 05:50 .


#269
CynicalShep

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Kerasth wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

and the answer to that is JJ Abrahams star trek

Just reboot the damn thing and don't **** up again


(laughs)

Tell that to all the Trekkies who think Abrams ruined the franchise with terrible writing and plot holes.


He turned Star Trek into Star Wars, damnit! That is unforgivable! he even put R2-D2 in both of the new films! Blasphemy, I tell you! Blasphemy!

Implying that's a bad thing ^
That makes it remotely watchable. 

/flameshield on

Modifié par CynicalShep, 17 octobre 2013 - 05:52 .


#270
shingara

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AlanC9 wrote...

shingara wrote...

 What hypothesis, that drew knew what he was going todo ?, whos to say he didnt and when did he denie he knows what hes doing, or the fact he was moved from this bioware to swtor bioware ?


See edit above. It was "vague and not fleshed out, it was something we considered but we ended up going in a different direction."

So what I'm disputing is that he had a "solid idea," unless the only thing you meant by "solid" is that you liked the idea. 


 Well ye that was a bit of odd terming by me when stating solid. What i mean is that whilst drew may have had lots of ideas for the next step in mass effect, he never had the chance to flesh them out and build upon them. I mean in practice what you plan doesnt always work out so fleshing them out is the only way to see. but drew never really got the chance, i dunno why and i doubt we ever shall for the reason drew switched studios and was shipped to swtor.

 Was it choice or push, was his ideas different from someones at this studio and maybe found walters who agreed with that person, im not pointing fingers. And i must add, i do not think its a fluke that drew was on the best rpgs bioware have made.


 Edit, just to add i do believe that drew had a solid idea on how to end the trilogy but was working on the best way to get to it.

Modifié par shingara, 17 octobre 2013 - 06:12 .


#271
FlamingBoy

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Arcian wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Dubozz wrote...

"Yeah, my ending is pretty ****ty but I can't say this in the interview"
At least he is not a lead writer anymore. #hope

Sure, but now he's narrative director, which means he has more creative control than the lead writer. The lead writer and the narrative designers all have to conform to the vision of the narrative director.

You may think things got better, but it's the exact opposite - they have never been worse than they are now. ME4 is completely at Super MAC's mercy, and we all know he will abuse it to kingdom come without any regard to the fans of the franchise.

so...ME3 landed him a promotion?
 
So much for what Dreamgazer was saying..

ME3 made money and was a financial success. No way they'll demote someone for that.


Usually costs and gains are alot more than can be seen on a balance sheet, such as mass effects reputation.

#272
KaiserShep

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CynicalShep wrote...

Kerasth wrote...

He turned Star Trek into Star Wars, damnit! That is unforgivable! he even put R2-D2 in both of the new films! Blasphemy, I tell you! Blasphemy!

Implying that's a bad thing ^
That makes it remotely watchable. 

/flameshield on


Too bad logic doesn't exist in the plot of either film. At least he finally apologized for the ridiculous lens flare.

#273
crimzontearz

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FlamingBoy wrote...

Arcian wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Dubozz wrote...

"Yeah, my ending is pretty ****ty but I can't say this in the interview"
At least he is not a lead writer anymore. #hope

Sure, but now he's narrative director, which means he has more creative control than the lead writer. The lead writer and the narrative designers all have to conform to the vision of the narrative director.

You may think things got better, but it's the exact opposite - they have never been worse than they are now. ME4 is completely at Super MAC's mercy, and we all know he will abuse it to kingdom come without any regard to the fans of the franchise.

so...ME3 landed him a promotion?
 
So much for what Dreamgazer was saying..

ME3 made money and was a financial success. No way they'll demote someone for that.


Usually costs and gains are alot more than can be seen on a balance sheet, such as mass effects reputation.


Yep, and they had to shell 10 000+ on upload fees and voice actors and god knows what else to put out an EC instead of the first wave of paid DLC because no one was going to buy them otherwise. To this day the game might have "ZOMG 75 PERFECT REVIEWS" but to the consumers it will be always associated to bad customer service, a crappy ending and and pre-launch lies

#274
Linkenski

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 The more they create content out of their intuition and passion, the more I love it... the more they cater to fan-service the more I hate them. *Flame-shield activated*

#275
crimzontearz

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Linkenski wrote...

 The more they create content out of their intuition and passion, the more I love it... the more they cater to fan-service the more I hate them. *Flame-shield activated*

that would work if they were not so detached from their fanbases


 
Also, the fact that ciradel was their higher scoring, best selling and best received DLC should tell you something