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Mass Effect 4 and the lessons learned from ME3


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#276
Arcian

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FlamingBoy wrote...

Arcian wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Dubozz wrote...

"Yeah, my ending is pretty ****ty but I can't say this in the interview"
At least he is not a lead writer anymore. #hope

Sure, but now he's narrative director, which means he has more creative control than the lead writer. The lead writer and the narrative designers all have to conform to the vision of the narrative director.

You may think things got better, but it's the exact opposite - they have never been worse than they are now. ME4 is completely at Super MAC's mercy, and we all know he will abuse it to kingdom come without any regard to the fans of the franchise.

so...ME3 landed him a promotion?
 
So much for what Dreamgazer was saying..

ME3 made money and was a financial success. No way they'll demote someone for that.


Usually costs and gains are alot more than can be seen on a balance sheet, such as mass effects reputation.

If a game's reputation had any key factor in its fiscal success, COD wouldn't make any money. In reality, it is quite the opposite, which is why 1-2 new COD games are being made each year.

As long as Mass Effect games turn a profit, that will be excuse enough to continue making Mass Effect games no matter how hated they become.

#277
jtav

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The Citadel DLC is a hot mess regarding story and character and the love for it just makes me think that the problem was that the ending was unhappy. It fits the story even less than the endings and has a lot of the same problems but people forgive it because it makes them feel good.

#278
Xilizhra

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jtav wrote...

The Citadel DLC is a hot mess regarding story and character and the love for it just makes me think that the problem was that the ending was unhappy. It fits the story even less than the endings and has a lot of the same problems but people forgive it because it makes them feel good.

Happiness counts for a lot, especially when people are attached to their characters. Which problems stood out to you?

#279
Vortex13

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Wulfram wrote...

I don't think technological singularity was actually a bad choice as a "why" of the reapers. It was just the execution was horrible - mostly because they didn't really do a good job explaining and exploring the concept beforehand (the Geth Dyson sphere was a great opportunity to do just that, but it's virtually ignored), partly because it seemed like the writers either didn't get it or didn't think people would get it, so it seemed like it was dumbed down to just the Frankenstein story of rebelling against creators.

As a concept I certainly prefer it to the Dark Energy stuff.


In and of itself the Technological singularity scenario wasn't bad I agree, but I don't think it really fit the Reapers even if it had been executed better. That's not saying that I would despise the motivation if it was implemented better, its just that (IMO) turning the Reapers into the "Killing you to save you from yourselves." (You being the current cycle and yourselves being the galaxy at large)trope was a mistake. 

It just didn't fit the Reapers' character. Having the Catalyst portraying the Reapers as a cleansing fire, mearly doing what they were programed to do would have worked if the Reapers had never spoke to Shepard at all. But Soveriegn and Harbinger DID talk to Shepard, and while one could say that Sovreign was mearly all bluster, Harbinger's actions in ME 2 didn't come across as logical machine efficency in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. If the Reapers had been silent killing machines, methodically killing the people of the galaxy then the Catalyst's assertations make sense, and its use of the cycles would have a logical extentsion of what was shown prior.

Harbinger's taunting (not of Shepard) of the captured colonists, who had no possibility of escape, or of his slow, tortute of said colonists; 'liquifiying them one at a time, in full view of the others; makes no sense compared to what ME 3 tells us. On one hand, the narritive wants the Reapers to be these nightmarish Cuthulu-esque monsters that feed on fear and pain, and then on the other they want them to be these mindless muder bots mearly following their programing. It can't be both ways and still make sense (IMO). And no, this is not because I want to feel vindicated in blowing up the bad guys, this is because such a shift in character makes the Reapers/Catalyst appear bi-polar, and it breaks the flow of the narrative.

A better motivation would have simply been 'The Cycle' or 'The Harvest', no convienient Leviathians or Catalyst to explain the intentions behind the Cycles; just the simple repeated galactic genocides because that is what the Reapers were made to do. This may seem just like what we have now, but it would have the benifit of not having to come up with some convoluted way of why the Reapers reap; they just do. Automated automobile assembly lines don't need to know why they make cars, or the value the society that created the automated factory places on cars, they just make cars because that is what they were made to do. 

This way the actions of Sovreign and especially Harbinger don't clash with the passive nature the Catalyst tries to portray the Reapers as. If the Reapers were simply created to preform the Harvest, and like the doomsday scenario of the "Grey Goo", they got out of control, there would be no need to explain everything about them, or where they came from. Harbinger and the Reapers could not even know who created them, thus alining with the whole "We have no begining have no end. We are eternal." they don't even know. The Cycle could be something the Reapers treat with an almost religious reverence, the thing that gives them purpose, and could very easily be linked to the whole notion of fate vs. determinism the series touched apon. Speculation on the reason behind the Cycles could remain along with the Cuthulu vibe the Reapers had, and the theme of organic vs. synthetic is still applied.

#280
Iakus

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crimzontearz wrote...

Yep, and they had to shell 10 000+ on upload fees and voice actors and god knows what else to put out an EC instead of the first wave of paid DLC because no one was going to buy them otherwise. To this day the game might have "ZOMG 75 PERFECT REVIEWS" but to the consumers it will be always associated to bad customer service, a crappy ending and and pre-launch lies


Yup.  What's the current exchange rate for credibility?

#281
Iakus

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jtav wrote...

The Citadel DLC is a hot mess regarding story and character and the love for it just makes me think that the problem was that the ending was unhappy. It fits the story even less than the endings and has a lot of the same problems but people forgive it because it makes them feel good.


The ideal is somethnig that makes sense and is happy.

However, f it comes to a choice between nonsensical and unhapy, and nonsensical but happy.  I for one will take nonsensical and happy.

#282
crimzontearz

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iakus wrote...

jtav wrote...

The Citadel DLC is a hot mess regarding story and character and the love for it just makes me think that the problem was that the ending was unhappy. It fits the story even less than the endings and has a lot of the same problems but people forgive it because it makes them feel good.


The ideal is somethnig that makes sense and is happy.

However, f it comes to a choice between nonsensical and unhapy, and nonsensical but happy.  I for one will take nonsensical and happy.

QFT

#283
Iakus

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Grandpa telling a story to his grandson. "All that happened so very long ago."
"Will I ever get to the stars?"
"One day, my sweet. Out there there are billions of stars, and there are billions of worlds each with a story all its own."
"Tell me another story about The Shepard."
"It's getting late, but alright. One more story."


I was thinking more of  a futuristic series of interactive stories or video game.  Like Varric's "Hard in Hightown stories.

Gramps telling this story to a little kid has all sorts of unpleasant implications ;)

#284
jtav

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Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...

The Citadel DLC is a hot mess regarding story and character and the love for it just makes me think that the problem was that the ending was unhappy. It fits the story even less than the endings and has a lot of the same problems but people forgive it because it makes them feel good.

Happiness counts for a lot, especially when people are attached to their characters. Which problems stood out to you?


*Dramatic tone difference from the rest of the trilogy, not just ME3.
*Shepard is OOC. It is literally impossible to play Shepard as presented in Citadel.
*Character consistency sacrificed for comedy.
*Overreliance on drunk humor. People having no idea what they did last night is not funny.
*FShep's sexual harrassment of Vega. If the genders were reversed, people would be outraged and rightly so.
*With the exception of Jack and Thane, most of the relationship scenes don't offer anything knew. No relationship progression or insight. Just you and your friends/LI being cute.

#285
AlexMBrennan

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However, f it comes to a choice between nonsensical and unhapy, and nonsensical but happy. I for one will take nonsensical and happy.

Thus taking away any incentive for Bioware to do better - sure, the DLC may well be individually fun episodes, but at the end of the day it's a random collection of side stories that don't fit into the story at all.

#286
Iakus

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jtav wrote...

*Dramatic tone difference from the rest of the trilogy, not just ME3.
*Shepard is OOC. It is literally impossible to play Shepard as presented in Citadel.
*Character consistency sacrificed for comedy.
*Overreliance on drunk humor. People having no idea what they did last night is not funny.
*FShep's sexual harrassment of Vega. If the genders were reversed, people would be outraged and rightly so.
*With the exception of Jack and Thane, most of the relationship scenes don't offer anything knew. No relationship progression or insight. Just you and your friends/LI being cute.


Well in the case of Citadel
1) I found there was a dramatic tone difference even between the individual games, not just in this DLC.  It was lighter than usual, yeah, but that's it.

2) Shepard's been OOC for me since ME2 "Hey, Ash, long time no see.  Wanna join Cerberus?  It'll be just like old times"  No wonder she thought he was brainwashed!

3) Character consistency has never been a strong point of the series sadly.

4) Okay I'll give you the annoyance with drunk humor

5) Fortunately for me, I guess, I play MaleShep.  But yes, everything I've heard about FemShep/Vega is pretty...eww

6) Ash's romance (and as a character in general) is so neglected I'll take whatever I can get.

Modifié par iakus, 17 octobre 2013 - 03:10 .


#287
Iakus

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AlexMBrennan wrote...


However, f it comes to a choice between nonsensical and unhapy, and nonsensical but happy. I for one will take nonsensical and happy.

Thus taking away any incentive for Bioware to do better - sure, the DLC may well be individually fun episodes, but at the end of the day it's a random collection of side stories that don't fit into the story at all.



DLC is supposed to be side-stories.  If it fits, or is even implied to fit (ie From Ashes) into the main story, there's all kinds of rage about the game getting cut up and sold as DLC. 

And at any rate, I was talking about endings.  Bioware can certainly do better by not making nonsensical endings. 

#288
Arcian

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iakus wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Grandpa telling a story to his grandson. "All that happened so very long ago."
"Will I ever get to the stars?"
"One day, my sweet. Out there there are billions of stars, and there are billions of worlds each with a story all its own."
"Tell me another story about The Shepard."
"It's getting late, but alright. One more story."


I was thinking more of  a futuristic series of interactive stories or video game.  Like Varric's "Hard in Hightown stories.

Gramps telling this story to a little kid has all sorts of unpleasant implications ;)

"And then, The Shepard had sex with all the aliens on the Normandy."

#289
CynicalShep

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KaiserShep wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Kerasth wrote...

He turned Star Trek into Star Wars, damnit! That is unforgivable! he even put R2-D2 in both of the new films! Blasphemy, I tell you! Blasphemy!

Implying that's a bad thing ^
That makes it remotely watchable.

/flameshield on


Too bad logic doesn't exist in the plot of either film. At least he finally apologized for the ridiculous lens flare.


See, if he had lightsabers it would have been 162% better even with the story issues. That being said, play the KOTOR games

#290
AlanC9

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AlexMBrennan wrote...
Thus taking away any incentive for Bioware to do better - sure, the DLC may well be individually fun episodes, but at the end of the day it's a random collection of side stories that don't fit into the story at all.


Aren't random side stories part of RPG tradition?

#291
The Night Mammoth

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AlanC9 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Thus taking away any incentive for Bioware to do better - sure, the DLC may well be individually fun episodes, but at the end of the day it's a random collection of side stories that don't fit into the story at all.


Aren't random side stories part of RPG tradition?

The operative word being 'part'. 

#292
Kel Riever

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I'm probably one of the few people who liked the sidequests....that's different from fetch quests. Still, I'd rather have ME1 where you could wander the planet and flying to different systems picking stuff up,...occasionally coming across an actual combat or situation to solve, than either scanning for minerals (awful) or getting rid of it altogether.

Anyway, all that stuff seems to have gone by the wayside now, at least in space opera sci fi sense for the console. If I play something, I'd rather play ME1.

Well, whatever. Who has time for video games! :D

#293
CronoDragoon

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Personally I found ME1's planet explorations to largely be a waste of time, but I fully recognize the subjective taste inherent in such a statement. I much prefer the tighter-story driven sidequests like Grissom or the Turian bomb mission.

#294
Kel Riever

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Personally I found ME1's planet explorations to largely be a waste of time, but I fully recognize the subjective taste inherent in such a statement. I much prefer the tighter-story driven sidequests like Grissom or the Turian bomb mission.


I should be clear...I MUCH rather see missions than wandering planets.  I'd rather see wandering planets, though, than scanning or tagging a planet for a fetch.

#295
CronoDragoon

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Kel Riever wrote...
I should be clear...I MUCH rather see missions than wandering planets.  I'd rather see wandering planets, though, than scanning or tagging a planet for a fetch.


Oh for sure, planet scanning is a waste of time in ME3 to pad out playtime. The game would be tighter, more replayable, and more enjoyable if I didn't have useless quests popping in and out of my log.

#296
AlanC9

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

AlanC9 
Aren't random side stories part of RPG tradition?

The operative word being 'part'. 


I don't see the problem, though,  since we're talking about a DLC. We've slready got a main plot.

#297
Dean_the_Young

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DLC must be interesting and relevant to the main plot.

DLC that is interesting and relevant to the main plot is exploitation of content stolen from the core game.

#298
The Night Mammoth

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I can see the problem, though I don't hold the same concern. The Citadel DLC was fluff, and really well received fluff at that. Not even just fluff either, nothing about it made sense but people didn't care because there were so many jokes. I hardly think there's going to be a massive, immediate change in the games the Mass Effect studio produces, but if there's a continuing, observable trend, maybe there will be some sort of change, I wouldn't enjoy that.

#299
AlexMBrennan

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There's a difference between selling content already on the disc and making DLC content where Shepard just drops a time-sensitive quest (imagine a population counter that drops by 100000 for every minute spent in game - if there are people left when you get to the Crucible control chamber then you win) to play lame fighting games.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 17 octobre 2013 - 04:21 .


#300
AlanC9

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AlexMBrennan wrote...

There's a difference between selling content already on the disc and making DLC content where Shepard just drops a time-sensitive quest (imagine a population counter that drops by 100000 for every minute spent in game - if there are people left when you get to the Crucible control chamber then you win) to play lame fighting games.


Wait a minute. It's not like Shepard is building the Crucible personally. How can he control how fast he gets to the ending?

This criticism is much more applicable to ME1 or DA:O.