299 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Maybe they learned "be careful of what you wish for". ME3 is a classic case:

Casey Hudson and Mac Walters said they wanted an ending that wasn't forgettable, that people kept talking about.

They got that.

Actually, I don't quite know if they regret that.

Right, no they don't.

People like that only regret something if it negatively impacts them in a direct way. In other words, like a child they are not sorry they did something wrong/upset people, they are sorry if they get punished for it

[crimzontearz]

Mcfly616 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I understand and appreciate Mac's point-of-view about sticking to his guns, but he really shouldn't have brought a comparison to Breaking Bad into the conversation.

he compared the fates of the characters. Nothing more.


Which, he's quite right. I always expected them to die for their own respective causes, since the beginning.

so he is only subjectively right then because I consider the analogy wrong as I always expected to be able to save my Shepard (yes yes, breath scene, author intention -btw wven Gaider said that was BS- and all that jazz)

[dreamgazer]

crimzontearz wrote...

Right, no they don't.

People like that only regret something if it negatively impacts them in a direct way. In other words, like a child they are not sorry they did something wrong/upset people, they are sorry if they get punished for it

Actually, you've just described nearly every single person responsible for creating something, anything, for an audience.  And if you think situations like this don't "negatively impact" them in ways beyond removal of the team or whatever, then you'd be sorely mistaken.

[crimzontearz]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Right, no they don't.

People like that only regret something if it negatively impacts them in a direct way. In other words, like a child they are not sorry they did something wrong/upset people, they are sorry if they get punished for it

Actually, you've just described nearly every single person responsible for creating something, anything, for an audience.  And if you think situations like this don't "negatively impact" them in ways beyond removal of the team or whatever, then you'd be sorely mistaken.

really? Then pray tell exactly how did this impact Mac and Casey directly?

[dreamgazer]

crimzontearz wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Right, no they don't.

People like that only regret something if it negatively impacts them in a direct way. In other words, like a child they are not sorry they did something wrong/upset people, they are sorry if they get punished for it

Actually, you've just described nearly every single person responsible for creating something, anything, for an audience.  And if you think situations like this don't "negatively impact" them in ways beyond removal of the team or whatever, then you'd be sorely mistaken.

really? Then pray tell exactly how did this impact Mac and Casey directly?

Do you honestly believe that creators producing something for an audience don't feel the impact of their bitter, hyperbolic audience scrutinizing everything they do and bombarding them at any chance they can get, calling for firings?

Do you honestly think they're going to have complete creative freedom in the future?

Do you honestly think their ability to comunicate with the fans will ever be the same?

Those are direct impacts, even if they continue to do their jobs.  That's what professionals do: continue to work, despite the bullshit. 

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Maybe they learned "be careful of what you wish for". ME3 is a classic case:

Casey Hudson and Mac Walters said they wanted an ending that wasn't forgettable, that people kept talking about.

They got that.

Actually, I don't quite know if they regret that.

You think they're secretly thrilled that they had such a profound effect on people? Perhaps, but that would only reinforce my emotional distance from the MEU. 

Also, while I don't know about Casey and Mac, I suspect that the other writers on the project are rather profoundly affected by the rejection by a large part of the core fanbase. With regard to Casey and Mac, I would like nothing more than to know what thought processes went into the original ending, since I'm caught between "nobody can ****** off their fans this way without intention", "sh*t happens to the best of them" and "it's just bad writing". Unfortunately, the behaviour of a radical fringe on this forum makes such communication unlikely. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 octobre 2013 - 01:55 .

[crimzontearz]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Right, no they don't.

People like that only regret something if it negatively impacts them in a direct way. In other words, like a child they are not sorry they did something wrong/upset people, they are sorry if they get punished for it

Actually, you've just described nearly every single person responsible for creating something, anything, for an audience.  And if you think situations like this don't "negatively impact" them in ways beyond removal of the team or whatever, then you'd be sorely mistaken.

really? Then pray tell exactly how did this impact Mac and Casey directly?

Do you honestly believe that creators producing something for an audience don't feel the impact of their bitter, hyperbolic audience scrutinizing everything they do and bombarding them at any chance they can get, calling for firings?

Do you honestly think they're going to have complete creative freedom in the future?

Do you honestly think their ability to comunicate with the fans will ever be the same?

Those are direct impacts, even if they continue to do their jobs.  That's what professionals do: continue to work, despite the bullshit. 

if I had to give you an answer based on what I have been reading coming from Bioware then yes, yes I believe that the impact was not direct at all. The only way for that to change is to wait for more news about

1 the roles of Mac and Casey in ME4

and

2 See if the team makes good on these "lessons" they learned

Because so far all I am reading is "we did the right thing and we would do it again "

[dreamgazer]

crimzontearz wrote...

Because so far all I am reading is "we did the right thing and we would do it again "

Well, except for the "we learned lessons" and "we didn't expect x and y from the audience" parts of those discussions.  It's easy to cherry-pick and distort things without considering all the information. 

[Steelcan]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Because so far all I am reading is "we did the right thing and we would do it again "

Well, except for the "we learned lessons" and "we didn't expect x and y from the audience" parts of those discussions.  It's easy to cherry-pick and distort things without considering all the information. 

The "we didn't expect people to get attached to characters" line is complete and utter stupidity.  They either knew thats what people were invested in, or there is a whole new level of disconnect between the fans and devs.

[dreamgazer]

Steelcan wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Because so far all I am reading is "we did the right thing and we would do it again "

Well, except for the "we learned lessons" and "we didn't expect x and y from the audience" parts of those discussions.  It's easy to cherry-pick and distort things without considering all the information. 

The "we didn't expect people to get attached to characters" line is complete and utter stupidity.  They either knew thats what people were invested in, or there is a whole new level of disconnect between the fans and devs.

To be honest, the clingy attachment that some of this game's audience members have towards the characters is, indeed, very surprising and not something I expected when I came here a year and a half ago.

And they didn't say they didn't expect people to get attached to the characters, they said thy didn't expect people to get as attached to the characters as they have. I can definitely see where they're coming from. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 16 octobre 2013 - 02:03 .

[rekn2]

dreamgazer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Because so far all I am reading is "we did the right thing and we would do it again "

Well, except for the "we learned lessons" and "we didn't expect x and y from the audience" parts of those discussions.  It's easy to cherry-pick and distort things without considering all the information. 

The "we didn't expect people to get attached to characters" line is complete and utter stupidity.  They either knew thats what people were invested in, or there is a whole new level of disconnect between the fans and devs.

To be honest, the clingy attachment that some of this game's audience members have towards the characters is, indeed, very surprising and not something I expected when I came here a year and a half ago.

And they didn't say they didn't expect people to get attached to the characters, they said thy didn't expect people to get as attached to the characters as they have. I can definitely see where they're coming from. 

you must be new to bioware games. i knew before all this started thats what would happen. its happened in the past so why not now?

[dreamgazer]

rekn2 wrote...

you must be new to bioware games. i knew before all this started thats what would happen. its happened in the past so why not now?

No, I'm not new to BioWare games (lol).  I am fairly new to interacting with their fanbase, though. 

[dreamgazer]

So they should limit their writing intentions to nurture the audience's attachment?

The closer they get to this mindset, the more the games will feel like products instead of stories.

[Steelcan]

dreamgazer wrote...

So they should limit their writing intentions to nurture the audience's attachment?

The closer they get to this mindset, the more the games will feel like products instead of stories.

.  Idk about you but I did not get to tell the story of my Shepard from ME1/2

[dreamgazer]

Steelcan wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

So they should limit their writing intentions to nurture the audience's attachment?

The closer they get to this mindset, the more the games will feel like products instead of stories.

.  Idk about you but I did not get to tell the story of my Shepard from ME1/2

It came in waves between alignments, but yeah, I was able to tell the stories of my three Shepards. 

Why couldn't I tell the story I really wanted to tell of Shepard in ME1, who wanted to stop working with the alliance, reject the Spectre offer, become a space pirate, and hunt down Saren with the Shadow Broker's intel and black-market resources?

[crimzontearz]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Because so far all I am reading is "we did the right thing and we would do it again "

Well, except for the "we learned lessons" and "we didn't expect x and y from the audience" parts of those discussions.  It's easy to cherry-pick and distort things without considering all the information. 

 
Did you miss the "there is nothing we would change" part?


 
Also, you realize they MARKETED US the games based on character attachment and emotional investment? How the **** does one go from there to "yo, I was not expecting you would get attached"?

[Nashiktal]

dreamgazer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Because so far all I am reading is "we did the right thing and we would do it again "

Well, except for the "we learned lessons" and "we didn't expect x and y from the audience" parts of those discussions.  It's easy to cherry-pick and distort things without considering all the information. 

The "we didn't expect people to get attached to characters" line is complete and utter stupidity.  They either knew thats what people were invested in, or there is a whole new level of disconnect between the fans and devs.

To be honest, the clingy attachment that some of this game's audience members have towards the characters is, indeed, very surprising and not something I expected when I came here a year and a half ago.

And they didn't say they didn't expect people to get attached to the characters, they said thy didn't expect people to get as attached to the characters as they have. I can definitely see where they're coming from. 

To be honest this fanbase is not unique in its attatchment to characters. It's just among the most vocal because of how popular and widespread Bioware became and thus the sheer volume of fans that interact among these forums. For all of it's faults I have found this fanbase to be among the better ones despite its size exacerbating the problems.

What is different though is that Bioware actively encourages the fanbase to grow attatched to characters and thats not a bad thing. It does lay down certain expectations and reactions though. 

Modifié par Nashiktal, 16 octobre 2013 - 02:22 .

[Nashiktal]

rekn2 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

you must be new to bioware games. i knew before all this started thats what would happen. its happened in the past so why not now?

No, I'm not new to BioWare games (lol).  I am fairly new to interacting with their fanbase, though. 

youre just being an ass, if youve played bioware games you would know they are very character driven. just about everything bioware has done has had iconic, story driven chracters

Woah man! Lay off the insults. There are far better ways to handle your furstration than to just fall back on cursing.

[dreamgazer]

crimzontearz wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Because so far all I am reading is "we did the right thing and we would do it again "

Well, except for the "we learned lessons" and "we didn't expect x and y from the audience" parts of those discussions.  It's easy to cherry-pick and distort things without considering all the information. 

 
Did you miss the "there is nothing we would change" part?

I did not, and good for them.  They stuck to their guns. 

Also, you realize they MARKETED US the games based on character attachment and emotional investment? How the **** does one go from there to "yo, I was not expecting you would get attached"?

You're making the position intentionally binary, crimzon.  They never said: "We didn't expect people to get attached".  

[dreamgazer]

rekn2 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

you must be new to bioware games. i knew before all this started thats what would happen. its happened in the past so why not now?

No, I'm not new to BioWare games (lol).  I am fairly new to interacting with their fanbase, though. 

youre just being an ass, if youve played bioware games you would know they are very character driven. just about everything bioware has done has had iconic, story driven chracters

Charming.  

You realize that you can admire the characters without developing a clingy, fragile attachment to them, right?  I've been doing so since Baldur's Gate, my friend. 

[NeonFlux117]

Lessons Learned-

Boot Mac "Da Scrub" Walters from Lead Writing and go beg and plead Drew K. to come back.

Hudson.... Never. Ever. Touch the creative aspect of the series again. Nuff said.

More Like ME1 and ME2 and Less like ME3. Again, pretty simple really.

Make sure you have, what is called in basic creative writing, Narrative Cohesion. It's kinda important.

Peer review writing- again very basic, but very important.

Don't forget the ESTABLISHED LORE in the series- i.e. the endings... Really, again. Pretty Simple.

And my favorite guideline about creative and imaginary writing and storytelling-

KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.

I fear BioFail will do none of these things. But maybe I'm wrong. Unlikely.

[rekn2]

Nashiktal wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

you must be new to bioware games. i knew before all this started thats what would happen. its happened in the past so why not now?

No, I'm not new to BioWare games (lol).  I am fairly new to interacting with their fanbase, though. 

youre just being an ass, if youve played bioware games you would know they are very character driven. just about everything bioware has done has had iconic, story driven chracters

Woah man! Lay off the insults. There are far better ways to handle your furstration than to just fall back on cursing.

a spade is a spade