299 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Nashiktal wrote...

To be honest this fanbase is not unique in its attatchment to characters. It's just among the most vocal because of how popular and widespread Bioware became and thus the sheer volume of fans that interact among these forums. For all of it's faults I have found this fanbase to be among the better ones despite its size exacerbating the problems.

What is different though is that Bioware actively encourages the fanbase to grow attatched to characters and thats not a bad thing. It does lay down certain expectations and reactions though. 

I understand this, I really do, but there'll come a time when they simply stop crossing the line and fall back on what's easy to gratify their fans.  As someone who appreciates storytelling, characters, and the way they interact, it's unfortunate to see that come closer to happening. 

[dreamgazer]

rekn2 wrote...

a spade is a spade

Yeah, it's easy to insult others with an alternate viewpoint, isn't it?

[rekn2]

dreamgazer wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

you must be new to bioware games. i knew before all this started thats what would happen. its happened in the past so why not now?

No, I'm not new to BioWare games (lol).  I am fairly new to interacting with their fanbase, though. 

youre just being an ass, if youve played bioware games you would know they are very character driven. just about everything bioware has done has had iconic, story driven chracters

Charming.  

You realize that you can admire the characters without developing a clingy, fragile attachment to them, right?  I've been doing so since Baldur's Gate, my friend. 

learn how to argue. thats not what is being discussed. its how bio fans as a large unit react...they react from the story/character driven aspects of their games, how you and i feel has nothing to do with the mass of fans that was being discussed.

its been that way since the start

[Chashan]

dreamgazer wrote...


I understand this, I really do, but there'll come a time when they simply stop crossing the line and fall back on what's easy to gratify their fans.  As someone who appreciates storytelling, characters, and the way they interact, it's unfortunate to see that come closer to happening. 

One can argue that already happened, see Citadel DLC.

If you compare that to prior claims of 'telling a war-story', 'high level concepts' (or the like) by some of ME3's writers...

[dreamgazer]

rekn2 wrote...

learn how to argue. thats not what is being discussed. its how bio fans as a large unit react...they react from the story/character driven aspects of their games, how you and i feel has nothing to do with the mass of fans that was being discussed.

its been that way since the start

I'll argue how I see fit, but thanks for the ... educated guidance.

And BioWare has many, many other fans than those who populate this board, who don't react to character developments the way they do here.

[NeonFlux117]

StreetMagic wrote...

Personally, I prefer the DA team more.. The developers are attached to the characters themselves. They don't play dumb and act like they don't know what's going on. Leliana turned out so great they retconned any notion of death. Others get canonized stories in side projects like the comics or novels, and even minor characters get revitalized as fullblown squadmates (Merrill and Isabela).

You know what, I agree with you. Despite the train wreck of DA2. It does seem that the team do care about the characters and universe a little more than the ME3 team. 

Although Citadel DLC was very good and had a lot of "heart" and charm. 

But it was also CUT content from ME2. 

Yes, that's right. The best content of ME3 was cut content of ME2- it was b team material for ME2. 

That's how good ME2 was. 

But yeah.... The DA team does care more about  it's product. At least they seem to be trying really hard with DA3. I hope it's good. 

[CronoDragoon]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Hudson.... Never. Ever. Touch the creative aspect of the series again. Nuff said.

More Like ME1 and ME2 and Less like ME3. Again, pretty simple really.

I hope you realize how much of a hypocrite this makes you.

KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.

You realize that creative writing classes introduce all these rules just so you know how to properly break them, right?

I fear BioFail will do none of these things. But maybe I'm wrong. Unlikely.

Oh man you're clever, NeonFail. LOL I DID IT TOO I'M CLEVER.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 16 octobre 2013 - 02:33 .

[dreamgazer]

rekn2 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

a spade is a spade

Yeah, it's easy to insult others with an alternate viewpoint, isn't it?

youre being intentionally antagonistic, stop it.

thats what asses are, btw.

If I recall correctly, one of us started with the insults and provocation, and it wasn't me. 

Perhaps you should look at yourself in the mirror?

[The Night Mammoth]

The crow calls the raven black, rekn2.

[crimzontearz]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Because so far all I am reading is "we did the right thing and we would do it again "

Well, except for the "we learned lessons" and "we didn't expect x and y from the audience" parts of those discussions.  It's easy to cherry-pick and distort things without considering all the information. 

 
Did you miss the "there is nothing we would change" part?

I did not, and good for them.  They stuck to their guns. 

Also, you realize they MARKETED US the games based on character attachment and emotional investment? How the **** does one go from there to "yo, I was not expecting you would get attached"?

You're making the position intentionally binary, crimzon.  They never said: "We didn't expect people to get attached".  

then I REALLY hope the consequences of their stubborness impacts them directly and (metaphorically) painfully.

Also, it is not a binary situation, they specifically said that wanted us to get attached to the characters then backpedaled when it blew up in their face


 
Sorry, I am not buying it

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...

There isn't much else to get attached to, I think? The combat used to be better imo (the heavy pausing/tactical combat, I mean), but now I can take or leave it. Not get fanatical about it. Umm.. the soundtracks used to better. ME3 is kind of.. OK. Not sure what else. It's the characters that make or break them.

To each their own, but ME1 is borderline unplayable for me because I consider the gameplay so mediocre, and the exploration of each planet gets boring after the first 10 seconds of staring at the awesome horizon. ME3's gameplay is superior in virtually every way I care about.

As for the music, I always love piano themes so ME3 gets the nod as the best, but each game has great tracks.

[rekn2]

its gamer/nerd culture, we cling to our heroes. its been like that for the 32 years ive been alive no matter the IP. star wars, star trek etc etc. you mess with them and people blow up. to not expect the same thing to happen in a video game, a sci fi video game is really blind. its so bad you seem to be intentionally doing it

[dreamgazer]

StreetMagic wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

learn how to argue. thats not what is being discussed. its how bio fans as a large unit react...they react from the story/character driven aspects of their games, how you and i feel has nothing to do with the mass of fans that was being discussed.

its been that way since the start

I'll argue how I see fit, but thanks for the ... educated guidance.

And BioWare has many, many other fans than those who populate this board, who don't react to character developments the way they do here.

There isn't much else to get attached to, I think? The combat used to be better imo (the heavy pausing/tactical combat, I mean), but now I can take or leave it. Not get fanatical about it. Umm.. the soundtracks used to better. ME3 is kind of.. OK. Not sure what else. It's the characters that make or break them.

While true (I'd also argue that the atmosphere of their games and the morality are crucial elements), there is assuredly a difference between getting attached and the players getting too attached to a point that prevents them from telling the stories they want to tell. 

[Dieb]

crimzontearz wrote...

then I REALLY hope the consequences of their stubborness impacts them directly and (metaphorically) painfully.

Also, it is not a binary situation, they specifically said that wanted us to get attached to the characters then backpedaled when it blew up in their face


 
Sorry, I am not buying it

You're intentionally acting oblivious now.

They absolutely know that people were attached to their character(s). It's the scale and the resulted intensity of their outrage that caught them completely off guard. And frankly, me too. Think about all that happened ever since, in here alone - It's quite definitely insane.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 16 octobre 2013 - 02:37 .

[jtav]

I do worry that the technical problems with the ending will be overshadowed by complaints that it was unhappy and didn't make the audience feel good. It's okay if a game, even an RPG with a customizable protagonist, ends on a bittersweet or even a bitter note (and anyone who seriously believes your choices don't matter should play a default game). I object to the ending being poorly written, not to the outcomes.

[NeonFlux117]

[quote]CronoDragoon wrote...

[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...

Hudson.... Never. Ever. Touch the creative aspect of the series again. Nuff said. [/quote]

More Like ME1 and ME2 and Less like ME3. Again, pretty simple really.[/quote]

I hope you realize how much of a hypocrite this makes you.

[quote]
KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.[/quote]

You realize that creative writing classes introduce all these rules just so you know how to properly break them, right?

[quote]I fear BioFail will do none of these things. But maybe I'm wrong. Unlikely.
[/quote]

Oh man you're clever, NeonFail. LOL I DID IT TOO I'M CLEVER.

[/quote]

You realize that these rules are talked about by some of the greatest and most renowned fiction writers of all time- here's a list

Erney Hemingway

William Gibson

James Joyce

Chuck Palahniuk. 

And many more:O:O:O

Listen homeslice, maybe you like Deus ex Machina, lore breaking, gainax ending writing using Macguffin narrative devices to explain the gainax ending and make it "high level" stuff. 

But I really don't. I like good writing. But to each their own. :wizard:

[CronoDragoon]

crimzontearz wrote...

Also, it is not a binary situation, they specifically said that wanted us to get attached to the characters then backpedaled when it blew up in their face

One thing I will agree with is how out of touch some parts of the game turned out to be based on what BW was saying up to release.

My favorite quote is when Casey Hudson says that he thinks one of the key reasons fans love ME is the beauty of the universe and the places/people in it. "How cool would it be to just hop on a ship and head over to Omega?" If they did this on purpose to destroy one of the main reasons fans loved playing the games, then I can only say they gambled that they could do it right (right as in, in a way that wouldn't cause an uproar) and lost.

[dreamgazer]

crimzontearz wrote...

then I REALLY hope the consequences of their stubborness impacts them directly and (metaphorically) painfully.

Also, it is not a binary situation, they specifically said that wanted us to get attached to the characters then backpedaled when it blew up in their face


 
Sorry, I am not buying it

You don't have to buy it, and I'm well aware that there's no changing certain minds on this forum.

I'll always assert that there's a line between attachment and too much attachment, though, as well as the audience's capacity to overreact when they test the boundaries of that line. 

[CronoDragoon]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't mean ME1 gameplay. Combat already took a dive by then. I'm talking back to BG or NWN and Kotor.. I loved the feel of the combat back then.

Oh, well, I hated BG gameplay, probably because I sucked at it. Pause and choose always felt cheap to me, and I always got whupped when I tried to play it like an RTS. Probably because I totally suck at RTS.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 16 octobre 2013 - 02:41 .

[CronoDragoon]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

You realize that these rules are talked about by some of the greatest and most renowned fiction writers of all time- here's a list

Erney Hemingway

William Gibson

James Joyce

Chuck Palahniuk. 

And many more:O:O:O

And have you actually read their works to see how many times they don't follow the "rules"? Doesn't seem like it. Those rules are crafted for amateurs so they aren't flounding around in the sea without an anchor. There are a million exeptions to every "rule" and the more you read and write the more you understand this. It's about learning how to break rules effectively, which ME3 does not.

But I really don't. I like good writing. But to each their own.

If only claiming the high ground on the internet made it true. But I'm curious what makes you think I consider ME3's ending good writing?

[dreamgazer]

rekn2 wrote...

its gamer/nerd culture, we cling to our heroes. its been like that for the 32 years ive been alive no matter the IP. star wars, star trek etc etc. you mess with them and people blow up. to not expect the same thing to happen in a video game, a sci fi video game is really blind. its so bad you seem to be intentionally doing it

Wait, so not surrendering to this mindset means that I'm doing it intentionally?

And these past experiences automatically makes it okay for ME's fans to do the same?