486 réponses à ce sujet

[Wynterdust]

Reorte wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

iakus wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

In terms of quality it is nowhere near as well done. Which is obvious considering it is only a mod.
Also taking away choice in a game that is all about choice takes away from the overall quality as I previously said.
The idea itself and how much one likes it is opinion based, absolutely.

Over as thousand choices were made before ME3 even starts.  And more are made across this game.

I'll give up one if it means a better ending

I see your reasoning but it's taking out arguably the most significant choice in the entire trilogy. A choice that the trilogy is building up to. In a way, it sort of makes the entire trilogy redundant as in the end you're going to win no matter what.

It isn't building up to that though, other than a few hints about Control. From the characters' points of view it's all about get to the Crucible and activate it, and hope that's no more Reapers. The decisions along the way have been to help get you there, hopefully without getting too many other people killed along the way, and helping to shape the post-Reaper galaxy. It's only because we're used to not getting simple, straightforward resolutions like that that there's any expectation of anything else.

You have your mission from the start yes, but along the journey you gather different perspectives such as TIM for control and Saren, EDI and Legion subtly hinting at synthesis. You should then have the choice of what to do with those perspectives you've gathered along the way. Which is what the orginal endings provide.
MEHEM as it is now is just an instant win. It thus makes every choice you've made completely redundant and the perspectives you've gathered don't mean anything at all.

[Iakus]

Wynterdust wrote...

You have your mission from the start yes, but along the journey you gather different perspectives such as TIM for control and Saren, EDI and Legion subtly hinting at synthesis. You should then have the choice of what to do with those perspectives you've gathered along the way. Which is what the orginal endings provide.
MEHEM as it is now is just an instant win. It thus makes every choice you've made completely redundant and the perspectives you've gathered don't mean anything at all.

Mostly the message I was getting across the trilogy was "The Reapers want to kills us and turn us into goo"  I reject the concept that the galaxy needs Reaper overlords to keep the peace, or that the only way to achieve galactic piece is to forcibly rewrite everyone's DNA..

But hey, if it was possible to create a MEHEM-type mod that still offered the chocies, I'd be for it.  More options for everyone.  But as it is, Bioware utterly failed to make their case for Control or Synthesis to me.  So in my case, at least, the choice is moot.  I'd pick Destroy anyway.

[Skvindt]

There's barely any mention or discussion (if any) about synthesis throughout the game(s) at all. And whatever suggestions of control there are, you aren't really able to have any meaningful dialogue with squadmates or major characters as to whether it should be a worthwhile solution.

[CronoDragoon]

SRX wrote...

There's barely any mention or discussion (if any) about synthesis throughout the game(s) at all. And whatever suggestions of control there are, you aren't really able to have any meaningful dialogue with squadmates or major characters as to whether it should be a worthwhile solution.

Agreed. I'd suggest Garrus's conversation with Shepard about the ruthless calculus of war as as an example of preliminary exploration of the morality of Destroy and its consequences. Similar conversations about Control and Synthesis should have been implemented, I think, and Shepard should be able to respond either positively or negatively, as he can tell Garrus he doesn't buy into the ruthless calculus or that it's the reality of war.

[eyezonlyii]

CronoDragoon wrote...

SRX wrote...

There's barely any mention or discussion (if any) about synthesis throughout the game(s) at all. And whatever suggestions of control there are, you aren't really able to have any meaningful dialogue with squadmates or major characters as to whether it should be a worthwhile solution.

Agreed. I'd suggest Garrus's conversation with Shepard about the ruthless calculus of war as as an example of preliminary exploration of the morality of Destroy and its consequences. Similar conversations about Control and Synthesis should have been implemented, I think, and Shepard should be able to respond either positively or negatively, as he can tell Garrus he doesn't buy into the ruthless calculus or that it's the reality of war.

not only that, but there needed to be small affirmations that the other options would be viable. up until the end (when the catalyst tells you so) there is no reason to think control will work at all. the game itself practically tells you that destroy is the only way to go until A NEW OPTION HAS ARRIVED!

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...
Is it really wrong of people to think that after failthfully importing a Shepard across three games, that at least some of those Shepards deserved more than we got?

No, but neither is it wrong to think that such things should be left to the players' imagination. Which is exactly what ME3 did if you chose Destroy.

As I see it, the openness of the ending was very good in handing the future to the player's imagination. As far as the original ending was open, it was not bad. It was the parts which were not open that made it bad, the dark age in particular and the neo-Luddite Garden Eden symbolism of that pastoral planet with no technology. You want Shepard to live? Make it so! High EMS Destroy gives you a big hint that Shepard is alive. You know, I have this headcanon that my Shepard comes back after Synthesis, so yes, I understand very well the feeling that Shepard deserves better, but I don't need the game to tell me the future, if I can make it on my own. MEHEM's creators did that and shared their vision with others. Good. That's how it's supposed to be, but I don't agree something similar should've been in ME3 from the start. I can only say that if I liked the Destroy option, I would be fine with what I got regarding Shepard. The issues I'd have would all be about the big picture.

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

SRX wrote...

There's barely any mention or discussion (if any) about synthesis throughout the game(s) at all. And whatever suggestions of control there are, you aren't really able to have any meaningful dialogue with squadmates or major characters as to whether it should be a worthwhile solution.

Agreed. I'd suggest Garrus's conversation with Shepard about the ruthless calculus of war as as an example of preliminary exploration of the morality of Destroy and its consequences. Similar conversations about Control and Synthesis should have been implemented, I think, and Shepard should be able to respond either positively or negatively, as he can tell Garrus he doesn't buy into the ruthless calculus or that it's the reality of war.

The irony goes very deep here. If you make peace on Rannoch, what happens between the quarians and the geth is a hint of what Synthesis might entail. It's just too bad that this invalidates the need for the Catalyst's solutions at the same time, telling us "no, synthetics and organics can get along after all." For me, this narrative inconsistency is the biggest storytelling blunder in the trilogy, and that you can't even mention it in the Catalyst scene - I don't have words for it, really.

[MegaSovereign]

I don't hate it. I just think that for every time MEHEM gets mentioned, the word "headcanon" should be in the same sentence.

MEHEM creator(s) said that it wasn't meant to be used as a canon replacement and I believe that they are being genuine. But a lot of people on the board go into threads and use it as fodder in debates. Attack/praise the endings all you like but mentioning MEHEM in an ending thread is about as useful as mentioning IT.

[wright1978]

CronoDragoon wrote...

SRX wrote...

There's barely any mention or discussion (if any) about synthesis throughout the game(s) at all. And whatever suggestions of control there are, you aren't really able to have any meaningful dialogue with squadmates or major characters as to whether it should be a worthwhile solution.

Agreed. I'd suggest Garrus's conversation with Shepard about the ruthless calculus of war as as an example of preliminary exploration of the morality of Destroy and its consequences. Similar conversations about Control and Synthesis should have been implemented, I think, and Shepard should be able to respond either positively or negatively, as he can tell Garrus he doesn't buy into the ruthless calculus or that it's the reality of war.

Personally i think the various possible alternate uses & possible consequences of the crucible should have been introduced up front during the building . Then squadmates could have chimed in with their thoughts and preferences.

[Reorte]

Wynterdust wrote...

Reorte wrote...

It isn't building up to that though, other than a few hints about Control. From the characters' points of view it's all about get to the Crucible and activate it, and hope that's no more Reapers. The decisions along the way have been to help get you there, hopefully without getting too many other people killed along the way, and helping to shape the post-Reaper galaxy. It's only because we're used to not getting simple, straightforward resolutions like that that there's any expectation of anything else.

You have your mission from the start yes, but along the journey you gather different perspectives such as TIM for control and Saren, EDI and Legion subtly hinting at synthesis. You should then have the choice of what to do with those perspectives you've gathered along the way. Which is what the orginal endings provide.
MEHEM as it is now is just an instant win. It thus makes every choice you've made completely redundant and the perspectives you've gathered don't mean anything at all.

There's a little bit coming on through the game about Control but it's ultimately rather badly handled (there's no obvious link between what Cerberus has been doing and the Crucible). If it had been handled rather better throughout the game, mostly by not forcing the view of Cerberus as an antagonist, that could've been made to work. There needed to be a lot more effort from TIM throughout the game, with him trying to persuade Shepard that he was right. Better still the amount of effort spent on that would depend upon your ME2 actions. I disagree that there are any subtle hints towards Synthesis because what it is is so far beyond ridiculous that I can't take the concept seriously for a second. EDI talking about becoming more like a human is too completely different to doing whatever the hell happens with it.

MEHEM isn't an instant win, the next version in particular shows an instant lose if you're bad enough. An instant win isn't a good thing, but neither is an instant win in the flavour of your choice. So IMO because the alternatives were so atrociously handled getting rid of them altogether works better. It's a lesser of two evils choice for sure, but that's down to faults throughout ME3 (and arguably earlier than that), which MEHEM could never be expected to deal with.

[Reorte]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't hate it. I just think that for every time MEHEM gets mentioned, the word "headcanon" should be in the same sentence. 

The fact that it is just headcanon on screen is the one reason I'll never be able to fully embrace it as a genuine alternative, however much I prefer it. The same would be true of any third party mod even if it was universally acclaimed as being utterly brilliant.

Modifié par Reorte, 18 octobre 2013 - 09:28 .

[wright1978]

Reorte wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't hate it. I just think that for every time MEHEM gets mentioned, the word "headcanon" should be in the same sentence. 

The fact that it is just headcanon on screen is the one reason I'll never be able to fully embrace it as a genuine alternative, however much I prefer it. The same would be true of any third party mod even if it was universally acclaimed as being utterly brilliant.

Everything is headcanon now, so i have no issue using MEHEM as the way to fix what i see as the trainwreck ME3 ending. I can't see any future ME game seriously using the import function to match the individual player universe anyhow.

[Reorte]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Is it really wrong of people to think that after failthfully importing a Shepard across three games, that at least some of those Shepards deserved more than we got?

No, but neither is it wrong to think that such things should be left to the players' imagination. Which is exactly what ME3 did if you chose Destroy.

As I see it, the openness of the ending was very good in handing the future to the player's imagination. As far as the original ending was open, it was not bad.

The reason I find it hugely unsatisfying is that it doesn't give you a concrete base from which you can go on an imagine that future. I don't want to see Shepard building a house on Rannoch or fathering blue babies (actually I do but it firmly belongs in the 'leave them wanting more' area). It's the nagging doubts that rational rather than emotional thinking leave me with about whether that's possible that makes even being able to contemplate that future merely headcanon, and headcanon is just another word for wishful thinking.

[Iakus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Is it really wrong of people to think that after failthfully importing a Shepard across three games, that at least some of those Shepards deserved more than we got?

No, but neither is it wrong to think that such things should be left to the players' imagination. Which is exactly what ME3 did if you chose Destroy.

As I see it, the openness of the ending was very good in handing the future to the player's imagination. As far as the original ending was open, it was not bad. It was the parts which were not open that made it bad, the dark age in particular and the neo-Luddite Garden Eden symbolism of that pastoral planet with no technology. You want Shepard to live? Make it so! High EMS Destroy gives you a big hint that Shepard is alive. You know, I have this headcanon that my Shepard comes back after Synthesis, so yes, I understand very well the feeling that Shepard deserves better, but I don't need the game to tell me the future, if I can make it on my own. MEHEM's creators did that and shared their vision with others. Good. That's how it's supposed to be, but I don't agree something similar should've been in ME3 from the start. I can only say that if I liked the Destroy option, I would be fine with what I got regarding Shepard. The issues I'd have would all be about the big picture.

While I think you are right that it was the parts that were not open that made the endings bad, I believe we see it differently.

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.  I have said before that if they lived, I could probably deal with just the breath scene as a hint that Shepard lived (thoguh it's still a lame scene, imo)  And I'm not one of those who can simply go "synthetics are just tech, they can be repaired" since so much of the ME lore say no, it doesn't work that way. 

So while yes, the memorial scene in MEHEM is awesome, one of the best scenes in the mod, it's the geth slides that really make it worth it to me. 

[Deathsaurer]

I don't think anyone should care if someone likes the mod or not. It may not appeal to me for various reasons but there have been plenty of games I enjoyed modding so if it helps you enjoy the game go for it. It's the my ending is better than your ending people I can't stand and let's face it no group has a monopoly on them.

[Reorte]

iakus wrote...

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.

Honestly? Because I think that opens you up to some genuine criticism from the people who don't like MEHEM. It's the fact that they die for no remotely rational reason that I have a problem with.

[Br3admax]

iakus wrote...

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.  I have said before that if they lived, I could probably deal with just the breath scene as a hint that Shepard lived (thoguh it's still a lame scene, imo)  And I'm not one of those who can simply go "synthetics are just tech, they can be repaired" since so much of the ME lore say no, it doesn't work that way. 
 

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

[wright1978]

iakus wrote...

While I think you are right that it was the parts that were not open that made the endings bad, I believe we see it differently.

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.  I have said before that if they lived, I could probably deal with just the breath scene as a hint that Shepard lived (thoguh it's still a lame scene, imo)  And I'm not one of those who can simply go "synthetics are just tech, they can be repaired" since so much of the ME lore say no, it doesn't work that way. 

So while yes, the memorial scene in MEHEM is awesome, one of the best scenes in the mod, it's the geth slides that really make it worth it to me. 

Personally i find breath scene & lack of shep in memorial extremely antagonising. Not as gamebreaking as the presence of the catalyst. Hence those are the 2 things that makes MEHEM awesome to me whilst EDI/Geth death would be painful but i could live with it. Different strokes for different folks i suppose.

[eyezonlyii]

Br3ad wrote...

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

It only targets reapers in Control though...

[Br3admax]

eyezonlyii wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

It only targets reapers in Control though...

Control replaces the Reaper AI control program. It doesn't force anything under control it changes the parameters.

Modifié par Br3ad, 18 octobre 2013 - 09:55 .

[Chashan]

Reorte wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't hate it. I just think that for every time MEHEM gets mentioned, the word "headcanon" should be in the same sentence. 

The fact that it is just headcanon on screen is the one reason I'll never be able to fully embrace it as a genuine alternative, however much I prefer it. The same would be true of any third party mod even if it was universally acclaimed as being utterly brilliant.

The important thing there, for me at least, is that one doesn't need to turn to means outside of the game to come to terms with the finale by way of expansion/substitution. It happens within the confines of the game, right on screen. Which is the one key thing different to most alternate approaches to the finale.

So, in that sense I am comfortable with it being the way my playthroughs of the trilogy end.

[Reorte]

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.  I have said before that if they lived, I could probably deal with just the breath scene as a hint that Shepard lived (thoguh it's still a lame scene, imo)  And I'm not one of those who can simply go "synthetics are just tech, they can be repaired" since so much of the ME lore say no, it doesn't work that way. 
 

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

That's exactly what's wrong with it - "There have to be some drawbacks, so we'll chuck them in regardless as to whether or not they make sense."

How do you plan to make it not single out the Reapers? Unless it's simply a brute force explosion that destroys everything in its path then targetting anything else is massively more complicated. Which do you think is easier, writing a virus that will delete any copy of Microsoft Word, running on Windows, with x86 compatible  hardware, or writing one that will indiscriminately delete any word processor running on any OS and any hardware?

[Br3admax]

Reorte wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.  I have said before that if they lived, I could probably deal with just the breath scene as a hint that Shepard lived (thoguh it's still a lame scene, imo)  And I'm not one of those who can simply go "synthetics are just tech, they can be repaired" since so much of the ME lore say no, it doesn't work that way. 
 

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

That's exactly what's wrong with it - "There have to be some drawbacks, so we'll chuck them in regardless as to whether or not they make sense."

How do you plan to make it not single out the Reapers? Unless it's simply a brute force explosion that destroys everything in its path then targetting anything else is massively more complicated. Which do you think is easier, writing a virus that will delete any copy of Microsoft Word, running on Windows, with x86 compatible  hardware, or writing one that will indiscriminately delete any word processor running on any OS and any hardware?

I think a virus that just frys everything is the easiest. It's not deleting, it just completely overloads the circuts. 

[Reorte]

Chashan wrote...

The important thing there, for me at least, is that one doesn't need to turn to means outside of the game to come to terms with the finale by way of expansion/substitution. It happens within the confines of the game, right on screen. Which is the one key thing different to most alternate approaches to the finale.

So, in that sense I am comfortable with it being the way my playthroughs of the trilogy end.

Even though it's been put into the game I know that really it's just something people have invented who want it to be other than it is. It's similar to the reason the breath scene is little comfort - even though when you think about why it's in there and so on rationally it doesn't show anything useful, so I can't simply take the meaning I'd like from it, no matter the intention.

[Reorte]

Br3ad wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.  I have said before that if they lived, I could probably deal with just the breath scene as a hint that Shepard lived (thoguh it's still a lame scene, imo)  And I'm not one of those who can simply go "synthetics are just tech, they can be repaired" since so much of the ME lore say no, it doesn't work that way. 
 

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

That's exactly what's wrong with it - "There have to be some drawbacks, so we'll chuck them in regardless as to whether or not they make sense."

How do you plan to make it not single out the Reapers? Unless it's simply a brute force explosion that destroys everything in its path then targetting anything else is massively more complicated. Which do you think is easier, writing a virus that will delete any copy of Microsoft Word, running on Windows, with x86 compatible  hardware, or writing one that will indiscriminately delete any word processor running on any OS and any hardware?

I think a virus that just frys everything is the easiest. It's not deleting, it just completely overloads the circuts. 

If it did that then it would destroy all sorts of non-AI computers. And would have to be something more blunt force than a virus. You're really talking about something that affects a whole range of similar hardware, no matter what it's being used for. If it did that we'd have trashed ships, and probably all the quarians dead as well as the geth, since they rely on their suits and we know the suits rely on complex computer systems (Tali says that geth are uploading to them if you make peace on Rannoch).

Anything powerful enough to propagate from the nearest rely and affect such disparate technology as would be expected from alien systems would almost certainly kill anything living in the area too.

Modifié par Reorte, 18 octobre 2013 - 10:01 .