486 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Reorte wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.  I have said before that if they lived, I could probably deal with just the breath scene as a hint that Shepard lived (thoguh it's still a lame scene, imo)  And I'm not one of those who can simply go "synthetics are just tech, they can be repaired" since so much of the ME lore say no, it doesn't work that way. 
 

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

That's exactly what's wrong with it - "There have to be some drawbacks, so we'll chuck them in regardless as to whether or not they make sense."

How do you plan to make it not single out the Reapers? Unless it's simply a brute force explosion that destroys everything in its path then targetting anything else is massively more complicated. Which do you think is easier, writing a virus that will delete any copy of Microsoft Word, running on Windows, with x86 compatible  hardware, or writing one that will indiscriminately delete any word processor running on any OS and any hardware?

I think a virus that just frys everything is the easiest. It's not deleting, it just completely overloads the circuts. 

If it did that then it would destroy all sorts of non-AI computers. And would have to be something more blunt force than a virus. You're really talking about something that affects a whole range of similar hardware, no matter what it's being used for. If it did that we'd have trashed ships, and probably all the quarians dead as well as the geth, since they rely on their suits and we know the suits rely on complex computer systems (Tali says that geth are uploading to them if you make peace on Rannoch).

Anything powerful enough to propagate from the nearest rely and affect such disparate technology as would be expected from alien systems would almost certainly kill anything living in the area too.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree. But I never said that it made sense, did I? Remember, we are in a franchise were everything matters except when plot. That's my problem with ME in general.  

[Iakus]

Reorte wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.

Honestly? Because I think that opens you up to some genuine criticism from the people who don't like MEHEM. It's the fact that they die for no remotely rational reason that I have a problem with.

That the geth and EDI die for a completely arbitrary reason is the more complete answer, yes.  If they were given a decent sendoff like Mordin, I could probably handle it.  But that I believe is far beyond the scope of any od

[eyezonlyii]

Br3ad wrote...

eyezonlyii wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

It only targets reapers in Control though...

Control replaces the Reaper AI control program. It doesn't force anything under control it changes the parameters.

As is being stated, above, then how does this ONLY work for Control? Destroy should work under the same principles then.  Because if the target is Reaper tech for Destroy, it should be Reaper tech for Control, but that isn't shown. What's shown is "red is the color everyone wants to pick, so make something terrible happen so that the other two don't feel like add ons"

[KwangtungTiger]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Is it really wrong of people to think that after failthfully importing a Shepard across three games, that at least some of those Shepards deserved more than we got?

No, but neither is it wrong to think that such things should be left to the players' imagination. Which is exactly what ME3 did if you chose Destroy.

As I see it, the openness of the ending was very good in handing the future to the player's imagination. As far as the original ending was open, it was not bad. It was the parts which were not open that made it bad, the dark age in particular and the neo-Luddite Garden Eden symbolism of that pastoral planet with no technology. You want Shepard to live? Make it so! High EMS Destroy gives you a big hint that Shepard is alive. You know, I have this headcanon that my Shepard comes back after Synthesis, so yes, I understand very well the feeling that Shepard deserves better, but I don't need the game to tell me the future, if I can make it on my own. MEHEM's creators did that and shared their vision with others. Good. That's how it's supposed to be, but I don't agree something similar should've been in ME3 from the start. I can only say that if I liked the Destroy option, I would be fine with what I got regarding Shepard. The issues I'd have would all be about the big picture.

Lets be fair here.........

All the endings need quite a bit of youtu.be/VbPWe9U4uPU going foward.

[jtav]

The destruction of all Reaper tech is a much more natural and logical consequence. But I do think there has to be something to stay the player's hand. Especially if you can both kill the Reapers and have Shep live by making the same choice.

[Iakus]

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.  I have said before that if they lived, I could probably deal with just the breath scene as a hint that Shepard lived (thoguh it's still a lame scene, imo)  And I'm not one of those who can simply go "synthetics are just tech, they can be repaired" since so much of the ME lore say no, it doesn't work that way. 
 

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

To teh first part, the galaxy ahs been ravaged by war for months.  Billions are dead and teh relay network is severely damaged an inoperable for an undetermined length of time, since there are no Reapers around to repair them.  That's drawback enough, thanks

To the second part:  The Crucible is a space-magicky weapon designed to destroy the Reapers.  That makes as much sense as the other three endings.

[Reorte]

Br3ad wrote...

Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree. But I never said that it made sense, did I? Remember, we are in a franchise were everything matters except when plot. That's my problem with ME in general. 

That's the problem all right, and why I don't have a problem with rejecting such concepts. If it doesn't make sense I have no problem with replacing bits of it I don't like. Plot really wasn't ME's strong point, was it? If it had realised that and accepted it (arguably ME2 did, even if it went too far) then we might've had a much better game. As it was the things that it was good at, setting and characters, still completely caught me.

[KwangtungTiger]

eyezonlyii wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

eyezonlyii wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

It only targets reapers in Control though...

Control replaces the Reaper AI control program. It doesn't force anything under control it changes the parameters.

As is being stated, above, then how does this ONLY work for Control? Destroy should work under the same principles then.  Because if the target is Reaper tech for Destroy, it should be Reaper tech for Control, but that isn't shown. What's shown is "red is the color everyone wants to pick, so make something terrible happen so that the other two don't feel like add ons"

Exactly............

-Doesnt Discriminate in "Red" and "Green" ending
-Does Discriminate in "Blue" ending

Sounds to me like the "Blue" ending is racist......

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

The destruction of all Reaper tech is a much more natural and logical consequence. But I do think there has to be something to stay the player's hand. Especially if you can both kill the Reapers and have Shep live by making the same choice.

Relay network is busted.  There are no relay specialists.  Heck it was only in the last year or so Dr Kenson was able to confirm they predated teh Protheans.  that's how little they've been studied.

[Reorte]

jtav wrote...

The destruction of all Reaper tech is a much more natural and logical consequence. But I do think there has to be something to stay the player's hand. Especially if you can both kill the Reapers and have Shep live by making the same choice.

Even then "All Reaper tech" makes as much sense as saying "All British tech." Some way of doing things that the Reapers often use might just about avoid breaking suspension of disbelief but that can't extend to how they write their software for use on totally alien platforms (the geth).

[Reorte]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

-Doesnt Discriminate in "Red" and "Green" ending
-Does Discriminate in "Blue" ending

Sounds to me like the "Blue" ending is racist......

Actually blue is the only one that doesn't because it's the only one that doesn't require a huge level of scrutiny and adjustment of everything that it affects.

[Br3admax]

eyezonlyii wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

eyezonlyii wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

It only targets reapers in Control though...

Control replaces the Reaper AI control program. It doesn't force anything under control it changes the parameters.

As is being stated, above, then how does this ONLY work for Control? Destroy should work under the same principles then.  Because if the target is Reaper tech for Destroy, it should be Reaper tech for Control, but that isn't shown. What's shown is "red is the color everyone wants to pick, so make something terrible happen so that the other two don't feel like add ons"

Because the Reapers were already under the Catalyst's control. The Crucible is just sending out the new orders, which only the Reapers follow. 

[Br3admax]

iakus wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's the fact that th egeth and EDI die in Destroy that makes it intolerable for me.  I have said before that if they lived, I could probably deal with just the breath scene as a hint that Shepard lived (thoguh it's still a lame scene, imo)  And I'm not one of those who can simply go "synthetics are just tech, they can be repaired" since so much of the ME lore say no, it doesn't work that way. 
 

There has to be some drawbacks to Destroy, otherwise it would be a no brainer. Also, how did you plan to make it single out Reapers only? One that makes sense, mind you. 

To teh first part, the galaxy ahs been ravaged by war for months.  Billions are dead and teh relay network is severely damaged an inoperable for an undetermined length of time, since there are no Reapers around to repair them.  That's drawback enough, thanks

To the second part:  The Crucible is a space-magicky weapon designed to destroy the Reapers.  That makes as much sense as the other three endings.

1. People know how relays work now so that wouldn't be a drawback? Dunno.
2. 

[Iakus]

[quote]Br3ad wrote...

To the second part:  The Crucible is a space-magicky weapon designed to destroy the Reapers.  That makes as much sense as the other three endings.[/quote]
1. People know how relays work now so that wouldn't be a drawback? Dunno.
2. 

[/quote]

1) I just had an Avengers flashback

"It appears to run on some kind of electricity"

2) If space magic can give me a tragic end, it should be able to give a happy end as well.  goose=gander

[Chashan]

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...


To teh first part, the galaxy ahs been ravaged by war for months.  Billions are dead and teh relay network is severely damaged an inoperable for an undetermined length of time, since there are no Reapers around to repair them.  That's drawback enough, thanks

To the second part:  The Crucible is a space-magicky weapon designed to destroy the Reapers.  That makes as much sense as the other three endings.

1. People know how relays work now so that wouldn't be a drawback? Dunno.
2. 

To expand on that: making it apparent that post-war times are anything but rosy, across vast stretches of the galaxy, would further help. Remember, the galaxy was quite reliant on these things for its infrastructure, with not too few colonies entirely banking on them for the most basic of supplies. Without them, what comes next in a time where that connection is severed is quite predictable: poverty, starvation, maybe entire colonies fading away.

Quite authentic scenario, that, looking at certain aftermaths of real wars. After the 'Liberation of Europe', there weren't too many fun-times had where I live either.

So, if there's options available that would drastically reduce that time of suffering, or bypass it altogether...


Further, should that not be enough for you, how about good, old-fashioned collateral damage? It's not like low-EMS Destroy didn't set a reasonable enough first step there: the more incomplete the Crucible, the more widespread the destruction caused. The more EMS, thus the more functional it is, that is lessened to a degree.

Except for the Sol-system, the epi-centre of that reaction, as well as neighbouring systems, at the very least.

The implications of that should be rather clear, I'd think.

Modifié par Chashan, 18 octobre 2013 - 10:28 .

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

The destruction of all Reaper tech is a much more natural and logical consequence. But I do think there has to be something to stay the player's hand. Especially if you can both kill the Reapers and have Shep live by making the same choice.

I could understand the concept behind destroying reaper tech even if practically it doesn't make that much sense. However i completely disagree with the notion of unbalancing the endings by negatively loading one because you haven't bothered to sell other options and are now fearful that everyone will pick a certain one.

[Br3admax]

Chashan wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...


To teh first part, the galaxy ahs been ravaged by war for months.  Billions are dead and teh relay network is severely damaged an inoperable for an undetermined length of time, since there are no Reapers around to repair them.  That's drawback enough, thanks

To the second part:  The Crucible is a space-magicky weapon designed to destroy the Reapers.  That makes as much sense as the other three endings.

1. People know how relays work now so that wouldn't be a drawback? Dunno.
2. 

To expand on that: making it apparent that post-war times are anything but rosy, across vast stretches of the galaxy, would further help. Remember, the galaxy was quite reliant on these things for its infrastructure, with not too few colonies entirely banking on them for the most basic of supplies. Without them, what comes next in a time where that connection is severed is quite predictable: poverty, starvation, maybe entire colonies fading away.

Quite authentic scenario, that, looking at certain aftermaths of real wars. After the 'Liberation of Europe', there weren't too many fun-times had where I live either.

So, if there's options available that would drastically reduce that time of suffering, or bypass it altogether...


Further, should that not be enough for you, how about good, old-fashioned collateral damage? It's not like low-EMS Destroy didn't set a reasonable enough first step there: the more incomplete the Crucible, the more widespread the destruction caused. The more EMS, thus the more functional it is, that is lessened to a degree.

Except for the Sol-system, the epi-centre of that reaction, as well as neighbouring systems, at the very least.

The implications of that should be rather clear, I'd think.

Except that implies that the Crucible fully functional still doesn't make sense. 

[Iakus]

Chashan wrote...
Except for the Sol-system, the epi-centre of that reaction, as well as neighbouring systems, at the very least.

The implications of that should be rather clear, I'd think.

Heck even in the Sol system, there are now dozens, hundreds, perhaps more, of now-dead Reapers in near-Earth space or in orbit.  As well as numerous warship wrecks.  That's gotta be a navigation hazard in addition to the risk of all that tonnage threatening to become a Colony Drop scenerio for just about any region of the planet.

[Reorte]

iakus wrote...

Chashan wrote...
Except for the Sol-system, the epi-centre of that reaction, as well as neighbouring systems, at the very least.

The implications of that should be rather clear, I'd think.

Heck even in the Sol system, there are now dozens, hundreds, perhaps more, of now-dead Reapers in near-Earth space or in orbit.  As well as numerous warship wrecks.  That's gotta be a navigation hazard in addition to the risk of all that tonnage threatening to become a Colony Drop scenerio for just about any region of the planet.

Probably not to be honest. Unless the Reaper was on a collision course for Earth and nowhere near orbital velocity they'll probably just whizz off into space. As for navigation hazard, a bit more junk in low Earth orbit, beyond that space is easily big enough to not to worry.

[KwangtungTiger]

Br3ad wrote...

Chashan wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...


To teh first part, the galaxy ahs been ravaged by war for months.  Billions are dead and teh relay network is severely damaged an inoperable for an undetermined length of time, since there are no Reapers around to repair them.  That's drawback enough, thanks

To the second part:  The Crucible is a space-magicky weapon designed to destroy the Reapers.  That makes as much sense as the other three endings.

1. People know how relays work now so that wouldn't be a drawback? Dunno.
2. 

To expand on that: making it apparent that post-war times are anything but rosy, across vast stretches of the galaxy, would further help. Remember, the galaxy was quite reliant on these things for its infrastructure, with not too few colonies entirely banking on them for the most basic of supplies. Without them, what comes next in a time where that connection is severed is quite predictable: poverty, starvation, maybe entire colonies fading away.

Quite authentic scenario, that, looking at certain aftermaths of real wars. After the 'Liberation of Europe', there weren't too many fun-times had where I live either.

So, if there's options available that would drastically reduce that time of suffering, or bypass it altogether...


Further, should that not be enough for you, how about good, old-fashioned collateral damage? It's not like low-EMS Destroy didn't set a reasonable enough first step there: the more incomplete the Crucible, the more widespread the destruction caused. The more EMS, thus the more functional it is, that is lessened to a degree.

Except for the Sol-system, the epi-centre of that reaction, as well as neighbouring systems, at the very least.

The implications of that should be rather clear, I'd think.

Except that implies that the Crucible fully functional still doesn't make sense. 

The Crucible per the Catalyst "is little more than a power source". The Crucible is doing nothing more than firing a different color beam.

No matter how you fire the beam it shouldn't discriminate. If Destroy affects the Geth and Edi, so should Control. But that would make little sense to do that.

Again, it was only added to give the other choices some credence.

Modifié par KwangtungTiger, 18 octobre 2013 - 10:39 .

[Skvindt]

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

SRX wrote...

There's barely any mention or discussion (if any) about synthesis throughout the game(s) at all. And whatever suggestions of control there are, you aren't really able to have any meaningful dialogue with squadmates or major characters as to whether it should be a worthwhile solution.

Agreed. I'd suggest Garrus's conversation with Shepard about the ruthless calculus of war as as an example of preliminary exploration of the morality of Destroy and its consequences. Similar conversations about Control and Synthesis should have been implemented, I think, and Shepard should be able to respond either positively or negatively, as he can tell Garrus he doesn't buy into the ruthless calculus or that it's the reality of war.

Personally i think the various possible alternate uses & possible consequences of the crucible should have been introduced up front during the building . Then squadmates could have chimed in with their thoughts and preferences.

This, it certainly would of made the other choices more paletable.  Keeping the crucible a bit of a mystery was a
bad move imo.

[Br3admax]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Chashan wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

iakus wrote...


To teh first part, the galaxy ahs been ravaged by war for months.  Billions are dead and teh relay network is severely damaged an inoperable for an undetermined length of time, since there are no Reapers around to repair them.  That's drawback enough, thanks

To the second part:  The Crucible is a space-magicky weapon designed to destroy the Reapers.  That makes as much sense as the other three endings.

1. People know how relays work now so that wouldn't be a drawback? Dunno.
2. 

To expand on that: making it apparent that post-war times are anything but rosy, across vast stretches of the galaxy, would further help. Remember, the galaxy was quite reliant on these things for its infrastructure, with not too few colonies entirely banking on them for the most basic of supplies. Without them, what comes next in a time where that connection is severed is quite predictable: poverty, starvation, maybe entire colonies fading away.

Quite authentic scenario, that, looking at certain aftermaths of real wars. After the 'Liberation of Europe', there weren't too many fun-times had where I live either.

So, if there's options available that would drastically reduce that time of suffering, or bypass it altogether...


Further, should that not be enough for you, how about good, old-fashioned collateral damage? It's not like low-EMS Destroy didn't set a reasonable enough first step there: the more incomplete the Crucible, the more widespread the destruction caused. The more EMS, thus the more functional it is, that is lessened to a degree.

Except for the Sol-system, the epi-centre of that reaction, as well as neighbouring systems, at the very least.

The implications of that should be rather clear, I'd think.

Except that implies that the Crucible fully functional still doesn't make sense. 

The Crucible per the Catalyst "is little more than a power source". The Crucible is doing nothing more than firing a different color beam.

No matter how you fire the beam it shouldn't discriminate. If Destroy affects the Geth and Edi, so should Control. But that would make little sense to do that.

Again, it was only added to give the other choices some credence.

I know that. But Control doesn't force anything under it's control. It changes the perameter that the Reapers recieve. The Geth and EDI are already independent. Also, who is to say that they aren't under Shepard's control. I didn't notice Reapers helping the quarians rebuild. 

[Bizantura]

Mods are just that, mods. You install it or you don't. Nothing sinister or difficult about it. Personally I don't need MEHEM but it fils a need. I dot my hat to the people dedicated in making mods possible especialy for a mod unfriendly game like ME3.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Bizantura wrote...

Mods are just that, mods. You install it or you don't. Nothing sinister or difficult about it. Personally I don't need MEHEM but it fils a need. I dot my hat to the people dedicated in making mods possible especialy for a mod unfriendly game like ME3.

Yes, finally someone who understands. I don't get all this arguing about which is better it will go nowhere because in the end it's just that, a mod. Some people will not like, others will, arguing about it is not going to change anything, whether one side is wrong or not. I think people should just drop it. MEHEM is what it is, criticizing it won't change that, just as criticizing the original endings won't change anything either. 

[Mcfly616]

eyezonlyii wrote...

As is being stated, above, then how does this ONLY work for Control? Destroy should work under the same principles then.  Because if the target is Reaper tech for Destroy, it should be Reaper tech for Control

Completely false....


The Crucible is nothing but an energy source. Shepard decides how it is used. Nothing more.


Nuclear energy is used for a great deal of things other than making bombs. It all depends on how it is directed. If a goverment uses nuclear energy for power, it doesn't necessarily turn their capital to a smoldering pile of ash.


The same can be said of the Crucible. It is nothing but raw energy. It doesn't discriminate. When you choose how to direct the energy is where the discrimination comes in.