486 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

Mcfly616 wrote...

eyezonlyii wrote...

As is being stated, above, then how does this ONLY work for Control? Destroy should work under the same principles then.  Because if the target is Reaper tech for Destroy, it should be Reaper tech for Control

Completely false....


The Crucible is nothing but an energy source. Shepard decides how it is used. Nothing more.


Nuclear energy is used for a great deal of things other than making bombs. It all depends on how it is directed. If a goverment uses nuclear energy for power, it doesn't necessarily turn their capital to a smoldering pile of ash.


The same can be said of the Crucible. It is nothing but raw energy. It doesn't discriminate. When you choose how to direct the energy is where the discrimination comes in.

The direction of energy controlled by what? And that would mean that all the functions are pre-programmed into the Citadel. Besides, it's not as if something as obvious as a large energy source wouldn't have been readily apparent to the team building the Crucible.

[Mcfly616]

Reorte wrote...

The direction of energy controlled by what?

your final choice (Control/Synthesis/Destroy) determines how the energy is concentrated.

And that would mean that all the functions are pre-programmed into the Citadel.

no. how do you come to that conclusion?

Besides, it's not as if something as obvious as a large energy source wouldn't have been readily apparent to the team building the Crucible.

your point?

[KaiserShep]

If a government uses nuclear energy for power, it *can't* turn their capital into a smoldering pile of ash, though this is one of those tropes that ME1 used on Virmire. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 18 octobre 2013 - 11:43 .

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...

jtav wrote...

The destruction of all Reaper tech is a much more natural and logical consequence. But I do think there has to be something to stay the player's hand. Especially if you can both kill the Reapers and have Shep live by making the same choice.

Relay network is busted.  There are no relay specialists.  Heck it was only in the last year or so Dr Kenson was able to confirm they predated teh Protheans.  that's how little they've been studied.

I think I've asked this before, but would you have been ok with Destroy if the geth lived but the relay network was permanently destroyed? Because I think that would've been thematically appropriate, have a solid philosophical grounding in the story that came before ("The relays blind you to other possibilities") and made for an interesting and very different future. In fact, I only had a problem with this aspect in the original ending because this happened in all endings, with a little ambiguity in Control.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2013 - 06:46 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The question regarding the destruction of the relay system is this: would we have discovered (we being the galactic community or someone therein) mass relay technology thus making the destruction irrelevant anyway? The Protheans had. If someone could get to Ilos that relay was not destroyed because it was NOT reaper tech.

Without it the only way of connecting the different points was FTL or if someone discovered some sort of space folding wormhole drive. Otherwise it would simply take too long. With the rebuilding efforts on the planets that might take centuries. The Asari colonies would have the jump because some just outright surrendered leaving their infrastructure intact.

[David7204]

I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere that some asari colonies 'outright surrendered.'

[Astartes Marine]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think I've asked this before, but would you have been ok with Destroy if the geth lived but the relay network was permanently destroyed? Because I think that would've been thematically appropriate, have a solid philosophical grounding in the story that came before ("The relays blind you to other possibilities") and made for an interesting and very different future. In fact, I only had a problem with this aspect in the original ending because this happened in all endings, with a little ambiguity in Control.

I'm going to chime in and say that I would have very much liked that version of Destroy. 

Interstellar travel would not be completely destroyed as it's been stated by BioWare in the past that conventional FTL could still get you from one end of the galaxy to the other, it would just take alot longer, and with the Geth around a solution would come much much faster.  A galaxy unified for common good working together for a brighter future.

That kind of ending would really build on the idea that Legion had in ME2 of building one's own future free from the given technology of the Old Machines. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Several planetary descriptions point out that several Asari worlds were forced to surrender simply by the threat of massive reprisals.

Which is perfectly in character for them and thoroughly disappointing.

[David7204]

Disagreeing with your enemy because he's your enemy is the opposite of freedom.

Of course, it's completely self-imposed, so it's hardly a sympathetic situation. In fact, I guess it depends on your definition of 'freedom.' Such a person is 'free' in the sense a stupid and helpless person is 'free.'

Modifié par David7204, 19 octobre 2013 - 08:03 .

[Chashan]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think I've asked this before, but would you have been ok with Destroy if the geth lived but the relay network was permanently destroyed? Because I think that would've been thematically appropriate, have a solid philosophical grounding in the story that came before ("The relays blind you to other possibilities") and made for an interesting and very different future. In fact, I only had a problem with this aspect in the original ending because this happened in all endings, with a little ambiguity in Control.

Would also do, far as I am concerned. And serve as an interesting set-up for a sequel besides.

Although, you'll have to allow that wouldn't necessarily mean giving up on trying to reinvent mass relays altogether.

[Erez Kristal]

The problem with MEHEM. is that it breaks the original mass effect 3 plot even further all in order to provide a happy ending. this greatly breaks immersion. i was watching rise of the apes a few days ago. the movie was great up until that last twenty minutes where the plot decided to turn everyone completely stupid.
Turning your villians or main characters into stupid will never work. if you are trying to portray the reapers as smart.

in the original endings you could say that the entire crucible was a ploy to promote synthesis or to absorb shepard into the reapers. with the offer to destroy the crucible if they fail. thus continuing the harvest.

With the MEHEM. the reapers just grow tired and let you win.
Not to mention you still call for the normandy evac if edi's get hurt. and then normandy doesnt provide cover up.

in order for mehem to truly work. the entire scene from the moment the sucidal charge begins and to the moment shepard enters the beam need to be changed drasticly. this isnt MEHEM fault. they simply had a lot of bad working material to begin with.

[KwangtungTiger]

Ieldra2 wrote...

iakus wrote...

jtav wrote...

The destruction of all Reaper tech is a much more natural and logical consequence. But I do think there has to be something to stay the player's hand. Especially if you can both kill the Reapers and have Shep live by making the same choice.

Relay network is busted.  There are no relay specialists.  Heck it was only in the last year or so Dr Kenson was able to confirm they predated teh Protheans.  that's how little they've been studied.

I think I've asked this before, but would you have been ok with Destroy if the geth lived but the relay network was permanently destroyed? Because I think that would've been thematically appropriate, have a solid philosophical grounding in the story that came before ("The relays blind you to other possibilities") and made for an interesting and very different future. In fact, I only had a problem with this aspect in the original ending because this happened in all endings, with a little ambiguity in Control.

I had already destroyed the Geth before the ending and would still prefer your version over what we got.

[wolfhowwl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think I've asked this before, but would you have been ok with Destroy if the geth lived but the relay network was permanently destroyed? Because I think that would've been thematically appropriate, have a solid philosophical grounding in the story that came before ("The relays blind you to other possibilities") and made for an interesting and very different future. In fact, I only had a problem with this aspect in the original ending because this happened in all endings, with a little ambiguity in Control.

I agree.

The Relay Network should be gone forever in destroy. That would be a sacrifice that makes sense and it would make for a rather nice bittersweet ending.

Too bad that was removed as a sop to people overly emotionally attached to Mass Effect.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 19 octobre 2013 - 08:35 .

[David7204]

I'm curious what you're doing here if you're not attached to Mass Effect.

Actually, that's a lie. I know the answer to that question.

[wolfhowwl]

Oh please tell me then.

Edit: Cmon, David. I wanted to read this before going to bed. Sigh.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 19 octobre 2013 - 10:05 .

[Nightwriter]

Ieldra2 wrote...

RatThing wrote...
I don't hate MEHEM, modders can do what they like. It's the idea that people want a cheesy Hollywood ending for the game that bothers me. It's not relevant for this game but for future Mass Effect games probably.

I get the impression my most people who like MEHEM and talk about it a lot that there are indeed many people who want a cheesy Hollywond ending, and I'd take any bet that this impression is entirely correct.

IMO it doesn't bode well for future stories if Bioware takes that impression away from the discussion, and that's the reason why I am critical of MEHEM. Otherwise, I don't have any strong feelings about it. It's a mod I don't use.

Ieldra, I love you, but "they wanted a cheesy Disney ending" is, in almost every instance of its usage I've ever seen, a petty attempt to sidestep criticisms that have nothing to do with a lack of rainbow unicorns.

Though, to clarify: I'm not saying MEHEM was the ending I wanted. I've never tried it. The Disney crap is just a worn nerve. Ask for a modicum of satisfaction and people say you're gunning to turn Mass Effect into My Little Pony and your desires are somehow ruinous to the integrity of BioWare games.

*walks away grumbling*

[wright1978]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think I've asked this before, but would you have been ok with Destroy if the geth lived but the relay network was permanently destroyed? Because I think that would've been thematically appropriate, have a solid philosophical grounding in the story that came before ("The relays blind you to other possibilities") and made for an interesting and very different future. In fact, I only had a problem with this aspect in the original ending because this happened in all endings, with a little ambiguity in Control.

I agree.

The Relay Network should be gone forever in destroy. That would be a sacrifice that makes sense and it would make for a rather nice bittersweet ending.

Too bad that was removed as a sop to people overly emotionally attached to Mass Effect.

I personally disagree. I see no reason why the relay network should be gone forever in destroy. Personally i can accept geth/EDI as a sacrifice whereas i wouldn't accept complete destruction of relay network.

[RatThing]

Chashan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think I've asked this before, but would you have been ok with Destroy if the geth lived but the relay network was permanently destroyed? Because I think that would've been thematically appropriate, have a solid philosophical grounding in the story that came before ("The relays blind you to other possibilities") and made for an interesting and very different future. In fact, I only had a problem with this aspect in the original ending because this happened in all endings, with a little ambiguity in Control.

Would also do, far as I am concerned. And serve as an interesting set-up for a sequel besides.

Although, you'll have to allow that wouldn't necessarily mean giving up on trying to reinvent mass relays altogether.

I'd be ok with that too. I think however,  that in the destroy ending we have it is harder to rebuild that network (and takes much longer) since you don't have Reaper to repair the relays.

Modifié par RatThing, 19 octobre 2013 - 09:34 .

[David7204]

Nightwriter wrote...

Though, to clarify: I'm not saying MEHEM was the ending I wanted. I've never tried it. The Disney crap is just a worn nerve. Ask for a modicum of satisfaction and people say you're gunning to turn Mass Effect into My Little Pony and your desires are somehow ruinous to the integrity of BioWare games.

That is exactly what MEHEM offers. That is it's sole and explicit purpose. To offer a warm and fuzzies ending with no attempt to address other issues.

If people didn't see the appeal of that, they wouldn't be using the mod the first place.

Now, does that mean they 'want' such a thing in the actual game? Of course not. But that's not because we're underestimating the merit of MEHEM. Because we aren't. It simply means the people who claim they 'want' such a thing in the main game are deep enough in their hypocrisy to accept such a delusion.

MEHEM is not a good ending. It's not good writing. Of course, neither are the original endings, but that's aside the point. It's warm and fuzzies and that's all it is.

Modifié par David7204, 19 octobre 2013 - 09:39 .

[Chashan]

wright1978 wrote...

I personally disagree. I see no reason why the relay network should be gone forever in destroy. Personally i can accept geth/EDI as a sacrifice whereas i wouldn't accept complete destruction of relay network.

I suppose 'destruction' is too strong a word, in this case. What Ieldra is getting at, to my understanding, is irrevocably pulling the plug on the established relay network, with no way in the foreseeable future that it can be reactivated again.

Which, of course, still leaves attempts to discern the workings of relays, which would doubtlessly be done. With the one known instance of doing that on Ilos being cut off and of no further use as we learn following ME1, it is by no means certain if, and when that can be achieved.

RatThing wrote...

I'd be ok with that too. I think however,  that in the destroy ending we have it is harder to rebuild that network (and takes much longer) since you don't have Reaper to repair the relays.

Which is exactly my point.

Modifié par Chashan, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:12 .

[wright1978]

Chashan wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

I personally disagree. I see no reason why the relay network should be gone forever in destroy. Personally i can accept geth/EDI as a sacrifice whereas i wouldn't accept complete destruction of relay network.

I suppose 'destruction' is too strong a word, in this case. What Ieldra is getting at, to my understanding, is irrevocably pulling the plug on the established relay network, with no way in the foreseeable future that it can be reactivated again.

Which, of course, still leaves attempts to discern the workings of relays, which would doubtlessly be attempted. With the one known attempt of doing that on Ilos being cut off and of no further use as we learn following ME1, it is by no means certain if, and when that can be achieved.

Which i disagree with. It's a nonsense idea that because the reapers built the relays we can't take the spoils of victory after defeating them.

[Chashan]

wright1978 wrote...

Which i disagree with. It's a nonsense idea that because the reapers built the relays we can't take the spoils of victory after defeating them.

With the set-up given, I don't entirely disagree with that. At the end of the day, given that an integral part to make that entire Wunderwaffe-gambit work is being constructed by allied forces themselves, discerning the end-game in advance by way of briefing on it would have been the most sensible approach.

If we have to work with a last-minute exposition, though, I suppose the 'Catalyst' rubbing that in our face would have born more weight. Certainly more with those people who did not need to consider the geth's well-being anyway, having them fried above Rannoch well before.

[Reorte]

Destroying the relays suffers from exactly the same problem as killing the EDI and the geth does - it's an arbitrary negative shoved in there just to drag Destroy down, because there has to be a downside ya know! Negatives for something have to be a logical conclusion of the actions and not just chucked in there like your adding stuff to a mixture until it turns the colour you want. It's not quite as bad as EDI and the geth but not good either. Taking longer to repair them is a little better, although I'm still not sure why they're damaged at all.

I've said it before but the only rational negative I've managed to think of is that the Reapers aren't destroyed instantly, we'll need to lug the Crucible around to mop them up with, it'll take a long time and we'll lose many more worlds and colonies in the process.

Yes, conventional FTL still works but we're not getting to the other side of the galaxy any time soon with it.

Modifié par Reorte, 19 octobre 2013 - 11:17 .

[RatThing]

It's reaper technology. Somehow the beam needs to distinguish what's a Reaper that must be destroyed and what's not. The fact that it doesn't do a perfect job here wouldn't be that illogical for me. Same with Edi and the Geth who are carrying Reaper code. Also, the way I've interpreted the ending, the relays were needed to spread the crucible's energy and simply overloaded (couldn't take that much energy).

Modifié par RatThing, 19 octobre 2013 - 11:25 .

[wright1978]

RatThing wrote...

It's reaper technology. Somehow the beam needs to distinguish what's a Reaper that must be destroyed and what's not. The fact that it doesn't do a perfect job here wouldn't be that illogical for me. Same with Edi and the Geth who are carrying Reaper code. Also, the way I've interpreted the ending, the relays were needed to spread the crucible's energy and simply overloaded (couldn't take that much energy).

No its just technology. Just because it was built by the reapers doesn't mean each relay is a sentient AI. Just because it was built by the reapers doesn't mean it should be targetted by the weapon. The geth/EDI reaper code thing could have been plausible( in that their intelligence is indistinguishable from reapers) but that's not the angle they took.