486 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

KaiserShep wrote...

The relays being space magic does not preclude them from being repaired, any more than the eezo core of the Normandy being space magic did not preclude regular organics from building it.

Not the point. 

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Hate is a strong word, but I do find it incredibly bland. Some people do speak as it Shepard's survival was all that ever mattered about ME3, but I find the MEHEM, as an ending, to be extremely bland.

Sure, from a narrative perspective, there is nothing wrong with the Crucible just deactivating the Reapers' shields or killing them or whatever, but it feels incredibly anticlimactic.

The only bit of the MEHEM I can really say struck me as a nice touch was watching Shepard put the name up on the Normandy KIA chart. That aside, it just cuts out the last 15 minutes of the atrocious ending without inserting anything enjoyable.

[RatThing]

Reorte wrote...

RatThing wrote...

Face palming territory? That's funny because since the beam already recognizes what's a Reaper it is already established that it is in a way intelligent (not AI) as it has some kind of detection ability.

Where has that been established? And there's no sensible mechanism for it.

Because that's what it does. It recognizes reapers.

 As for how it could just affect the Reapers there are a couple of possibilities. Since they are controlled anyway effectively ordering them to self-destruct is one.

To control them you have to communicate with them, give them orders in form of information. You'd also need to recognize them for that either.

Yes, affecting husks and similar is just as daft.
...
Another would be something to do with the way their larger than normal mass effect cores might be put together. Sure, that lacks detailed explanation too but doesn't require inventing completely new far-fetched ideas either. Neither of those are great but the whole Instant Reaper Dead / Controlled / Synthesised idea is fundamentally bad to begin with.

If you're unhappy with the logic of the ending as it is in general just say so and we can put this to rest. But the truth is, it does affect the husks which means your vague  "larger than normal mass effect cores" theory goes down the drain either.

So it either has to be 100% provable and scientific or absolutely anything goes?

What I'm saying is that with the ending as we have it now, IF we accept that as legit there's no reason not to accept that the beam COULD target Reaper technology explicitly. That was my initial point.

edit: and I personally have no big problem with a beam which can actually recognize sth. In my eyes it's some kind of information carrier (since it even rewrites genetic information) and that's it. It's a technology with billions of years of advancement. Try telling someone from the middle ages about communicating with radio waves.

Modifié par RatThing, 19 octobre 2013 - 06:46 .

[KaiserShep]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
Sure, from a narrative perspective, there is nothing wrong with the Crucible just deactivating the Reapers' shields or killing them or whatever, but it feels incredibly anticlimactic.

Thing is, MEHEM or not, the ending is already anticlimactic anyway. There's no big, exciting resolution to any of the endings; they all essentially go out on a rather somber note.

[Reorte]

RatThing wrote...

If you're unhappy with the logic of the ending as it is in general just say so and we can put this to rest. But the truth is, it does affect the husks which means your  "larger than normal mass effect cores" theory goes down the drain either.

OK we'll put it to rest, because it is the whole logic (or lack thereof) that I have problems with. Whilst it doesn't need to stack up to someone sitting down for a week with a pile of physics textbooks and working it all out neither should my first reaction be "Oh dear, someone just wants stuff to happen and couldn't care less whether or not it makes sense."

What I'm saying is that with the ending as we have it now, IF we
accept that as legit there's no reason not to accept that the beam COULD
target Reaper technology explicitly. That was my initial point.

Sounds like we've been arguing at cross purposes.

Modifié par Reorte, 19 octobre 2013 - 06:41 .

[RatThing]

Reorte wrote...

RatThing wrote...

If you're unhappy with the logic of the ending as it is in general just say so and we can put this to rest. But the truth is, it does affect the husks which means your  "larger than normal mass effect cores" theory goes down the drain either.

OK we'll put it to rest, because it is the whole logic (or lack thereof) that I have problems with. Whilst it doesn't need to stack up to someone sitting down for a week with a pile of physics textbooks and working it all out neither should my first reaction be "Oh dear, someone just wants stuff to happen and couldn't care less whether or not it makes sense."

What I'm saying is that with the ending as we have it now, IF we
accept that as legit there's no reason not to accept that the beam COULD
target Reaper technology explicitly. That was my initial point.

Sounds like we've been arguing at cross purposes.

Fair enough. I'm not much of a physicist anyways. Have a nice day.

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

The only bit of the MEHEM I can really say struck me as a nice touch was watching Shepard put the name up on the Normandy KIA chart. That aside, it just cuts out the last 15 minutes of the atrocious ending without inserting anything enjoyable.

Sometimes that's enough

[Hazegurl]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Hate is a strong word, but I do find it incredibly bland. Some people do speak as it Shepard's survival was all that ever mattered about ME3, but I find the MEHEM, as an ending, to be extremely bland.

Sure, from a narrative perspective, there is nothing wrong with the Crucible just deactivating the Reapers' shields or killing them or whatever, but it feels incredibly anticlimactic.

The only bit of the MEHEM I can really say struck me as a nice touch was watching Shepard put the name up on the Normandy KIA chart. That aside, it just cuts out the last 15 minutes of the atrocious ending without inserting anything enjoyable.

It's no more bland than all the other endings. Personally I like the touch of the Crucible deactivating their shields. It's much better than the explanation we got from bioware which is none. They built it not knowing what the thing does and then we have to rely on the Reaper kid to tell us what we can do with it. Something I doubt all the cycles intended it to be used for.

I like to think that the Crucible is tech that contains every aspect of reaper code ever used from cycle to cycle and it rewrites it into a new more advanced code which could deactivate their shields, send them a virus and weaken them whatever else, thus making them easy to destroy.

I also think that the next ME would make more sense taking place in a MEHEM world than the ones given to us by bioware. A post reaper universe, post rebuilding or still rebuilding etc. That is just my opinion. I know they would have to nullify the endings in some way to make the next game work. Alternate universe (meh) would probably be their path. I know I have no desire to play a prequel.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 19 octobre 2013 - 07:17 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Hazegurl wrote...

It's no more bland than all the other endings. Personally I like the touch of the Crucible deactivating their shields. It's much better than the explanation we got from bioware which is none. They built it not knowing what the thing does and then we have to rely on the Reaper kid to tell us what we can do with it. Something I doubt all the cycles intended it to be used for.

"Better than Bioware" isn't saying much though. It's like comparing the quality of writing between Twilight and its sequels. Sure, one might be better than the other, but if both are atrocious, does it matter?

MEHEM wins by virtue of cutting out stupidity, not by inserting anything of value in its place.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

The only bit of the MEHEM I can really say struck me as a nice touch was watching Shepard put the name up on the Normandy KIA chart. That aside, it just cuts out the last 15 minutes of the atrocious ending without inserting anything enjoyable.

Sometimes that's enough

For some people, I'm sure it is. For myself, it still doesn't fill the void of what I'd want or expect to the end of a 100+ hour epic.

[Reorte]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

The only bit of the MEHEM I can really say struck me as a nice touch was watching Shepard put the name up on the Normandy KIA chart. That aside, it just cuts out the last 15 minutes of the atrocious ending without inserting anything enjoyable.

Sometimes that's enough

For some people, I'm sure it is. For myself, it still doesn't fill the void of what I'd want or expect to the end of a 100+ hour epic.

I doubt anyone would claim that MEHEM is their ideal, perfect ending, the one that they would've put in there if they had been in charge of ME3's development.

[David7204]

Countless people have claimed exactly that.

Or rather, as I've said earlier, in threads of people posting their 'ideal ending,' the results have overwhelmingly been endings functionally identical to MEHEM: Shepard and everyone surviving, hugs and kisses, the actual concerns of defeating the Reapers either handwaved or solved in a narratively ridiculous fashion. The Crucible being an EMP or virus or some other vapid magic problem solver.

Is it true? Of course not. In reality the same people would have been enraged had MEHEM been the actual ending.

Modifié par David7204, 19 octobre 2013 - 10:53 .

[wolfhowwl]

David7204 wrote...

I'm curious what you're doing here if you're not attached to Mass Effect.

Actually, that's a lie. I know the answer to that question.

David, I HAVE to know my purpose here.

I've been waiting over twelve hours for this.

[Hazegurl]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

It's no more bland than all the other endings. Personally I like the touch of the Crucible deactivating their shields. It's much better than the explanation we got from bioware which is none. They built it not knowing what the thing does and then we have to rely on the Reaper kid to tell us what we can do with it. Something I doubt all the cycles intended it to be used for.

"Better than Bioware" isn't saying much though. It's like comparing the quality of writing between Twilight and its sequels. Sure, one might be better than the other, but if both are atrocious, does it matter?

MEHEM wins by virtue of cutting out stupidity, not by inserting anything of value in its place.

IMO, it does matter.  The mod eliminates what I didn't like about the original endings, it's just an edit, simple as that. I don't get why you believe it should add some sort of major overall value to the series for everyone. It's a fan mod made to squeeze into an already existing story by another group of people. If ME3 was just on paper, I can see the MEHEM as a rough edit that needs to be smoothed out. Which means a possible rewrite of the story to polish the whole thing up.

Personally I use MEHEM and Citadel DLC together as my ending, heck I even take the scenes from the EC, such as Shepard helping his LI (Kaidan) and squad mate to the Normandy and the nice romantic moment they share. A bit of head canon to smooth out the lumps adds to a great experience for me. In other words. Each person gets whatever value they want from the MEHEM, use it in whatever way is best for you or don't use it at all. Just because you personally see no value in it doesn't make it true, it's just your opinion.

Btw, I'm even that opposed to the original endings. I almost always pick Destroy and is very happy to do so regardless of who dies as a result. I'm always up for an ending that is all about destroying the reapers. My Shepard never goes back on his word....unless he desires ultimate god like power....then it's control ftw!

Modifié par Hazegurl, 19 octobre 2013 - 11:00 .

[Br3admax]

wolfhowwl wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm curious what you're doing here if you're not attached to Mass Effect.

Actually, that's a lie. I know the answer to that question.

David, I HAVE to know my purpose here.

I've been waiting over twelve hours for this.

Are we making fun of David? Ha, David, you suck. 

[Iakus]

Reorte wrote...
I doubt anyone would claim that MEHEM is their ideal, perfect ending, the one that they would've put in there if they had been in charge of ME3's development.

It's not perfect.  But it is a substantial improvement.

And the fact that it was done by fans with handmade modding tools rather than a AAA budget and professional resources really says something.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Reorte wrote...

I doubt anyone would claim that MEHEM is their ideal, perfect ending, the one that they would've put in there if they had been in charge of ME3's development.

I understand where they're coming from. I do think it's an improvement. MEHEM does the best it can with limited resources.

I guess the best way to put it is that a good ending shouldn't just make me think "well, at least they didn't screw up!". My thought process should be more: "Wow, that was an amazing emotional conclusion to this epic tale and I feel completely satisfied with end result and am ready to experience it again".

But to be absolutely clear, I think ME3's ending problems are not just the final 15 minutes, but pretty much all of Priority Earth, which felt very bland, imo.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 19 octobre 2013 - 11:02 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Hazegurl wrote...

IMO, it does matter.  The mod eliminates what I didn't like about the original endings, it's just an edit, simple as that. I don't get why you believe it should add some sort of major overall value to the series for everyone. It's a fan mod made to squeeze into an already existing story by another group of people. If ME3 was just on paper, I can see the MEHEM as a rough edit that needs to be smoothed out. Which means a possible rewrite of the story to polish the whole thing up.

 I'm simply pointing out why I don't consider it to be of quality. The thread is about the MEHEM. I'm certainly going to express where I think it works and doesn't work.

[SlottsMachine]

Br3ad wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'm curious what you're doing here if you're not attached to Mass Effect.

Actually, that's a lie. I know the answer to that question.

David, I HAVE to know my purpose here.

I've been waiting over twelve hours for this.

Are we making fun of David? Ha, David, you suck. 

Heh.

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Reorte wrote...
I doubt anyone would claim that MEHEM is their ideal, perfect ending, the one that they would've put in there if they had been in charge of ME3's development.

It's not perfect.  But it is a substantial improvement.

And the fact that it was done by fans with handmade modding tools rather than a AAA budget and professional resources really says something.

Well, except for all the digital rendering, models, and what-not that were directly lifted from BioWare's free DLC.

You do remember that the mod exploits those AAA resources and time spent, right?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

Reorte wrote...
I doubt anyone would claim that MEHEM is their ideal, perfect ending, the one that they would've put in there if they had been in charge of ME3's development.

It's not perfect.  But it is a substantial improvement.

And the fact that it was done by fans with handmade modding tools rather than a AAA budget and professional resources really says something.

Well, except for all the digital rendering, models, and what-not that were directly lifted from BioWare's free DLC.

You do remember that the mod exploits those AAA resources and time spent, right?

And not to sound dismissive, but wasn't most of the work done by modders really amount to cutting out most of the last fifteen minutes, with minor modifications?

Again, it's much more than I could do, but the effort itself on a technical level doesn't sound comparable to what a AAA game developer has to deal with.

[Reorte]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Reorte wrote...

I doubt anyone would claim that MEHEM is their ideal, perfect ending, the one that they would've put in there if they had been in charge of ME3's development.

I understand where they're coming from. I do think it's an improvement. MEHEM does the best it can with limited resources.

I guess the best way to put it is that a good ending shouldn't just make me think "well, at least they didn't screw up!". My thought process should be more: "Wow, that was an amazing emotional conclusion to this epic tale and I feel completely satisfied with end result and am ready to experience it again".

But to be absolutely clear, I think ME3's ending problems are not just the final 15 minutes, but pretty much all of Priority Earth, which felt very bland, imo.

I think the only reason the endings are discussed a lot an Priority: Earth isn't is because everyone agrees about Priority: Earth. I completely agree with you on how it should've felt at the end (and depending upon the circumstances the emotional conclusion should've varied quite wildly); this discussion is all about what's the best way to achieve that given what we've got.

[Morty Smith]

dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

Reorte wrote...
I doubt anyone would claim that MEHEM is their ideal, perfect ending, the one that they would've put in there if they had been in charge of ME3's development.

It's not perfect.  But it is a substantial improvement.

And the fact that it was done by fans with handmade modding tools rather than a AAA budget and professional resources really says something.

Well, except for all the digital rendering, models, and what-not that were directly lifted from BioWare's free DLC.

You do remember that the mod exploits those AAA resources and time spent, right?

If the DLC was free of charge, how would a free of charge mod exploit it?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Reorte wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Reorte wrote...

I doubt anyone would claim that MEHEM is their ideal, perfect ending, the one that they would've put in there if they had been in charge of ME3's development.

I understand where they're coming from. I do think it's an improvement. MEHEM does the best it can with limited resources.

I guess the best way to put it is that a good ending shouldn't just make me think "well, at least they didn't screw up!". My thought process should be more: "Wow, that was an amazing emotional conclusion to this epic tale and I feel completely satisfied with end result and am ready to experience it again".

But to be absolutely clear, I think ME3's ending problems are not just the final 15 minutes, but pretty much all of Priority Earth, which felt very bland, imo.

I think the only reason the endings are discussed a lot an Priority: Earth isn't is because everyone agrees about Priority: Earth. I completely agree with you on how it should've felt at the end (and depending upon the circumstances the emotional conclusion should've varied quite wildly); this discussion is all about what's the best way to achieve that given what we've got.

In that case, MEHEM does get the job done. It's certainly better than the Catalyst's...whatever you want to call it.

[David7204]

Kroitz wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Well, except for all the digital rendering, models, and what-not that were directly lifted from BioWare's free DLC.

You do remember that the mod exploits those AAA resources and time spent, right?

If the DLC was free of charge, how would a free of charge mod exploit it?

That's not the point. The point is that you can't claim something like this is handmade when it isn't.

Modifié par David7204, 19 octobre 2013 - 11:18 .