486 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Again, it's much more than I could do, but the effort itself on a technical level doesn't sound comparable to what a AAA game developer has to deal with.

Yes and no. Obviously a top-notch developer has a lot of people working on these things, with much better resources available to them, and without the limitations of trying to mod a game not designed to be modded. To do something via a mod in such a game will probably take a lot more technical effort than it would for the developer, since the modder has to try to work out all sorts of things about how the game works without any of the developer's tools or even documentation.

[dreamgazer]

Kroitz wrote...

If the DLC was free of charge, how would a free of charge mod exploit it?

By altering the story told with content that, I assure you, was not free to produce.

[Morty Smith]

David7204 wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Well, except for all the digital rendering, models, and what-not that were directly lifted from BioWare's free DLC.

You do remember that the mod exploits those AAA resources and time spent, right?

If the DLC was free of charge, how would a free of charge mod exploit it?

That's not the point. The point is that you can't claim something like this is handmade when it isn't.

So an altered composition is nothing made by hand?

dreamgazer wrote...

By altering the story told with content that, I assure you, was not free to produce.

Been flagging AMVs and GMVs on youtube lately?

Modifié par Kroitz, 19 octobre 2013 - 11:29 .

[David7204]

It's not entirely made by hand. Which was what was claimed.

[Morty Smith]

David7204 wrote...

It's not entirely made by hand. Which was what was claimed.

You are right, I think half of the credit goes to the editing-programms used.

[Hazegurl]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

IMO, it does matter.  The mod eliminates what I didn't like about the original endings, it's just an edit, simple as that. I don't get why you believe it should add some sort of major overall value to the series for everyone[/b]. It's a fan mod made to squeeze into an already existing story by another group of people. If ME3 was just on paper, I can see the MEHEM as a rough edit that needs to be smoothed out. Which means a possible rewrite of the story to polish the whole thing up.

 I'm simply pointing out why I don't consider it to be of quality. The thread is about the MEHEM. I'm certainly going to express where I think it works and doesn't work.

That's cool. I'm just expressing how it works for me.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Well, except for all the digital rendering, models, and what-not that were directly lifted from BioWare's free DLC.

You do remember that the mod exploits those AAA resources and time spent, right?

If the DLC was free of charge, how would a free of charge mod exploit it?

That's not the point. The point is that you can't claim something like this is handmade when it isn't.

The music composition I wrote for it and orchestrated was.  The last minute contains a theme written originally by Sam Hulick which I arranged for full orchestra and added material. I gave Mr. Hulick credit in the meta-data and on the sheet music, and we communicated about this.

I should add that I used AAA resources that I paid for. 

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:32 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

"Better than Bioware" isn't saying much though. It's like comparing the quality of writing between Twilight and its sequels. Sure, one might be better than the other, but if both are atrocious, does it matter?

MEHEM wins by virtue of cutting out stupidity, not by inserting anything of value in its place.

The bolded part is pretty much why I use it. For me, cutting out nonsense is enough to justify using the mod, what with its flaws in production value and such. As a concept it's nothing grand, but MEHEM also has to work with the constraint of being a mod to a not very mod-friendly game, so I take what I can get.

So long as the Catalyst is erased from the game, I'm willing to accept a lot of things.

[Chashan]

dreamgazer wrote...

Well, except for all the digital rendering, models, and what-not that were directly lifted from BioWare's free DLC.

You do remember that the mod exploits those AAA resources and time spent, right?

By altering the story told with content that, I assure you, was not free to produce.

I am somewhat disappointed, 'gazer. Are you seriously going that direction, how a mod that is explicitly not used for commercial purposes is a sacrilege to the game?

*sigh*

You may cry 'exploit' within reason if that were actually the case. Yet, fact is it really isn't.

Not to mention that a good deal of that rendering will be custom-made in the next version anyway. But, we went over that before, didn't we?

[dreamgazer]

Chashan wrote...

I am somewhat disappointed, 'gazer. Are you seriously going that direction, how a mod that is explicitly not used for commercial purposes is a sacrilege to the game?

*sigh*

Not precisely, no. Not until the topic of it being a home-brew ending comes into the discussion.  

Resourceful? You bet. Admirable in terms of work? Sure. Indicative of this? 

And the fact that it was done by fans with handmade modding tools rather than a AAA budget and professional resources really says something.

Hardly. This happy-ending alteration to the story wouldn't exist without deliberate, intention-shirking manipulation of expensive AAA production material, period.  Material that BioWare flipped the bill for. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:22 .

[Chashan]

dreamgazer wrote...

Not precisely, no. Not until the topic of it being a home-brew ending comes into the discussion.  

Resourceful? You bet. Admirable in terms of work? Sure. Indicative of this? 

And the fact that it was done by fans with handmade modding tools rather than a AAA budget and professional resources really says something.

Hardly. This happy-ending alteration to the story wouldn't exist without deliberate, intention-shirking manipulation of expensive AAA production material, period.  Material that BioWare flipped the bill for. 

You do realize that opens a whole can of worms right there when it comes to not just mods, but fan-made videos, comic-strips and a host of other things making quite direct use of game-content in any shape or form, or even rearranging that any which way? Not to mention that BW themselves made it adamantly clear way back that they have no issue when it comes to modding strictly offline content, which the end of the SP-campaign, its cutscenes included, quite clearly is.

That train of thought is pretty much in the fundamentalist, confrontational vein I observed elsewhere before when it comes to this, and really just serves to pave the way to beyond needless polarisation.

[Giantdeathrobot]

dreamgazer wrote...


Hardly. This happy-ending alteration to the story wouldn't exist without deliberate, intention-shirking manipulation of expensive AAA production material, period.  Material that BioWare flipped the bill for. 

Heavens forbid mods use existing assets, 95% of all mods do, that why they're y'know, mods and not games/DLCs. Should the guy who uses vanilla textures to craft a dungeon or a piece of armor for Skyrim be told that, nope, he has to do everything from scratch or its not valid?

Also, manipulation? You make it sound like the guys from MEHEM brainwashed Bioware into making the EC solely so that they could then steal those assets in order to build the mod. If Bioware or EA were in any way hurt/offended/depressed that some dude on the internet was using in-game assets to alter said game a little without any sort of commercial purpose, I'm sure they would let us know.

[MrFob]

dreamgazer wrote...

Chashan wrote...

I am somewhat disappointed, 'gazer. Are you seriously going that direction, how a mod that is explicitly not used for commercial purposes is a sacrilege to the game?

*sigh*

Not precisely, no. Not until the topic of it being a home-brew ending comes into the discussion.  

Resourceful? You bet. Admirable in terms of work? Sure. Indicative of this? 

And the fact that it was done by fans with handmade modding tools rather than a AAA budget and professional resources really says something.

Hardly. This happy-ending alteration to the story wouldn't exist without deliberate, intention-shirking manipulation of expensive AAA production material, period.  Material that BioWare flipped the bill for. 

I just want to add here, that you misunderstood iakus original post, which prompted this line of discussion.
iakus said it was made with handmade tools.
And this is exactly true. The tools were not created by me but they were programmed from scratch by the ME3Explorer team. That is quite an achievement.
Of course, MEHEM uses and re-shuffles in-game assets. It's the best way to maintain lore consistency, IMO. The bulk of the mod (at least in v0.3) is mainly re-arrangement. But the tools, I used to do that were created with an insane amount of effort.
v0.4 will contain more self-made stuff though (although, even there, I am using BW's original models for the new videos mostly).

Modifié par MrFob, 20 octobre 2013 - 02:21 .

[dreamgazer]

How can someone discuss this when you folks rely on the false equivalency between fan videos or texture skins and an in-game modification that rewrites the ending and avoids canon?

I understood iakus' line of thought fine, MrFob. It really doesn't change the facts about the EC and the resources and motivation that went into making it, though, which are important when trumpeting the mod's stature as a homemade ending. That is not a slight on your individual work, though.

[MrFob]

If you look at the mods documentation and description though, you will see that I always credit BW extensively. Of course I do, without them, the whole ME universe would not exist, let alone MEHEM.

Besides, while you don't see an equivalency between home-made videos and mods, I do. The tools progress, technology progresses. 30 years ago, something like youtube was not even conceivable.I hope that in another 30, it will become just as easy for anyone to make interactive content.
As for cannon, I always though ME was not supposed to have one. As far as I am concerned, I just added another choice for players without invalidating the other endings at all.

Modifié par MrFob, 20 octobre 2013 - 02:49 .

[Hazegurl]

I don't see how MEHEM somehow takes away from Bioware's story. The Crucible is still used, the reapers are still killed (if you picked destroy), and Shepard still lives (breathes in rubble), Anderson still dies, the galaxy still needs to be rebuilt. What exactly has been taken away from BioWare?

IMO, there shouldn't even be a canon story for a game that gives players choices.

[Twilight_Princess]

MrFob wrote...

As for cannon, I always though ME was not supposed to have one. As far as I am concerned, I just added another choice for players without invalidating the other endings at all.

The way I see it, I'm expected to headcanon my ending anyway.  And if I have to do that, screw it , I might as well go the whole hog and download MEHEM. Bioware decided to end the trilogy with a cliffhanger if the player picks destroy. Destroyers where then told it was "up to them" if the 2 second easter egg meant shepard makes it or not. So the only choice where shepard has any chance of living...has a giant question mark over it. Great.  

I'm happy that this exists , it's just an additional choice for players if they want it.

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 20 octobre 2013 - 03:34 .

[Fawx9]

dreamgazer wrote...

How can someone discuss this when you folks rely on the false equivalency between fan videos or texture skins and an in-game modification that rewrites the ending and avoids canon?

I understood iakus' line of thought fine, MrFob. It really doesn't change the facts about the EC and the resources and motivation that went into making it, though, which are important when trumpeting the mod's stature as a homemade ending. That is not a slight on your individual work, though.

Because mods have always been more than just texture swaps.

There have been plenty of games that have had full conversions mods made for them which then go on to help the original game survive. Counter Strike and Desert Combat are my favourite examples of this.

The fact that this mod changes story elements(barely at that) rather than gameplay doesn't somehow make it evil.

[Iakus]

MrFob wrote...
As for cannon, I always though ME was not supposed to have one. As far as I am concerned, I just added another choice for players without invalidating the other endings at all.

Bioware has insisted over and over that there is no canon.  And if they are unwilling even to debunk IT as a valid interpretation, then I see no harm in adopting MEHEM as a personal canon.

[Cobalt2113]

Here's my question. People complain about the catalyst/crucible being dues ex machinas, even though they aren't. Yet the mehem contains perhaps the most blatant DEM I've ever seen when a random turian ship literally comes out of nowhere to save the day and nobody blinks an eye. Why is that?

[Iakus]

Cobalt2113 wrote...

Here's my question. People complain about the catalyst/crucible being dues ex machinas, even though they aren't. Yet the mehem contains perhaps the most blatant DEM I've ever seen when a random turian ship literally comes out of nowhere to save the day and nobody blinks an eye. Why is that?

Huh? 

[Cobalt2113]

iakus wrote...

Cobalt2113 wrote...

Here's my question. People complain about the catalyst/crucible being dues ex machinas, even though they aren't. Yet the mehem contains perhaps the most blatant DEM I've ever seen when a random turian ship literally comes out of nowhere to save the day and nobody blinks an eye. Why is that?

Huh? 

which part didnt you understand?

i only ever watched it once but, the turian ship that comes out of nowhere to rescue shepard from the citadel

[Iakus]

Cobalt2113 wrote...

which part didnt you understand?

i only ever watched it once but, the turian ship that comes out of nowhere to rescue shepard from the citadel

The Normandy goes back for Shepard.

A human cruiser, the SSV Nuremburg, and several other ships cover Joker as he flies in close enough for a shuttle launch to rescue Shepard

[Chashan]

Cobalt2113 wrote...

Here's my question. People complain about the catalyst/crucible being dues ex machinas, even though they aren't. Yet the mehem contains perhaps the most blatant DEM I've ever seen when a random turian ship literally comes out of nowhere to save the day and nobody blinks an eye. Why is that?

To that, I offer that extracting Shepards isn't the key-objective for the fleets to engage with the Reapers. Instead, what is the primary concern is to cover the armada's retreat while the Crucible charges up, and also divert Reapers' attention from that sufficiently until it is too late for the things to act.

In amongst that, a crew decides to get the Commander, because for once it's the first human Spectre that needs saving. Simple enough?

It's not like the EC offers anything too solid why it is possible for the fleets to withdraw without much difficulty the way they do. And in the end, at 'worst' we've got a eucatastrophic device there. Think the Eagles picking up the brave two halflings from the jaws of ruin in the LotR-books.


As for the other, well...Whatever you wish to label them, their absence is noted as a bonus with quite a few.

Modifié par Chashan, 20 octobre 2013 - 04:07 .

[Argentoid]

The sad thing is that BioWare took notice and they will have a Hollywood-esque ending for ME4.
With rainbows and horse-riding into the sunset.
With this in the background.

Plus, Mac Walters thinks that people don't like the ending because its "sad". Well, no. It's because it makes very little sense and destroys the lore in just 5 minutes.

Modifié par Argentoid, 20 octobre 2013 - 04:09 .