486 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

Chashan wrote...
In amongst that, a crew decides to get the Commander, because for once it's the first human Spectre that needs saving. Simple enough?

Slightly OT but I love that it's Shepard that needs saving for once and his crew isn't going to leave him behind. It fits perfectly with the Citadel DLC theme and the clone Shepard story.

[Iakus]

Hazegurl wrote...

Chashan wrote...
In amongst that, a crew decides to get the Commander, because for once it's the first human Spectre that needs saving. Simple enough?

Slightly OT but I love that it's Shepard that needs saving for once and his crew isn't going to leave him behind. It fits perfectly with the Citadel DLC theme and the clone Shepard story.

For Frodo Shepard!

[Iakus]

Argentoid wrote...
Plus, Mac Walters thinks that people don't like the ending because its "sad". Well, no. It's because it makes very little sense and destroys the lore in just 5 minutes.

If that's the conclusion they drew, then they didn't look closely enough at the complaints.  Yes, it's part of the problem.  But not the only one.  The endings failed on many levels

[Dr. Megaverse]

iakus wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Chashan wrote...
In amongst that, a crew decides to get the Commander, because for once it's the first human Spectre that needs saving. Simple enough?

Slightly OT but I love that it's Shepard that needs saving for once and his crew isn't going to leave him behind. It fits perfectly with the Citadel DLC theme and the clone Shepard story.

For Frodo Shepard!

Ads = shortening of my attention span lol

[Argentoid]

iakus wrote...

Argentoid wrote...
Plus, Mac Walters thinks that people don't like the ending because its "sad". Well, no. It's because it makes very little sense and destroys the lore in just 5 minutes.

If that's the conclusion they drew, then they didn't look closely enough at the complaints.  Yes, it's part of the problem.  But not the only one.  The endings failed on many levels

To be honest, I don't care if the ending its sad and I don't think its also part of the problem. I knew ME3 was going to end on a sad note with Shepard dying and everything since BioWare confirmed ME3 was to be Shepard's last story. What I didn't nail in my prediction was the nonsense.

Modifié par Argentoid, 20 octobre 2013 - 04:36 .

[Remix-General Aetius]

bad voice-overs, long blank screens with said bad voice-overs and cheap model replacement. that's why MEHEM sucks. and its fanbois are even worse, spamming "GET MEHEM GET MEHEM" on practically every ending-related thread.

Modifié par TheGarden2010, 20 octobre 2013 - 04:36 .

[Hazegurl]

iakus wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Chashan wrote...
In amongst that, a crew decides to get the Commander, because for once it's the first human Spectre that needs saving. Simple enough?

Slightly OT but I love that it's Shepard that needs saving for once and his crew isn't going to leave him behind. It fits perfectly with the Citadel DLC theme and the clone Shepard story.

For Frodo [/s]Shepard!

 I'm a sucker for "friends sticking by each other" stories. That's actually one of my favorite scenes

[Iakus]

Argentoid wrote...

iakus wrote...

Argentoid wrote...
Plus, Mac Walters thinks that people don't like the ending because its "sad". Well, no. It's because it makes very little sense and destroys the lore in just 5 minutes.

If that's the conclusion they drew, then they didn't look closely enough at the complaints.  Yes, it's part of the problem.  But not the only one.  The endings failed on many levels

To be honest, I don't care if the ending its sad and I don't think its also part of the problem. I knew ME3 was going to end on a sad note with Shepard dying and everything since BioWare confirmed ME3 was to be Shepard's last story. What I didn't nail in my prediction was the nonsense.

I thought SHepard would live or die based on teh decisions I made in the game.  Not forced in some half-baked plan to give everyone the same "bittersweet" end.

Just because Shepard's story ends doesn't mean Shepard has to end.  The Warden's story ended in Dragon Age: Origins.  But the Warden doesn't have to die.

[KwangtungTiger]

"Pro-Enders" to MEHEM,

youtu.be/AUbZJcdlcSc

How dare someone dislike the endings and put a mod (thats voluntary) on their Pc to get more enjoyment from the game.............

[Reorte]

Argentoid wrote...

To be honest, I don't care if the ending its sad and I don't think its also part of the problem. I knew ME3 was going to end on a sad note with Shepard dying and everything since BioWare confirmed ME3 was to be Shepard's last story. What I didn't nail in my prediction was the nonsense.

There's quite a big leap between "last story" and "dead", since I never expected BioWare to keep making Mass Effect games with Shepard in them. The most obvious interpretation of "last" in this case would simply be "We won't be making any more games with Shepard." It would be tragic for BioWare if they're unable to stop using a character without killing him.

[Ottemis]

TheGarden2010 wrote...

bad voice-overs, long blank screens with said bad voice-overs and cheap model replacement. that's why MEHEM sucks. and its fanbois are even worse, spamming "GET MEHEM GET MEHEM" on practically every ending-related thread.

This is why there's hate on both sides. People are unable to accept something to be valid even though it's not a conclusion they reached. There is no absolute truth in interpretation, it's completely subjective. People are so caught up validating their own opinion by devaluing those of others that differ, that there is zero space for acceptance and those opinions existing next to eachother.

Much like the individual ending choices sparked so much hate between players because those that picked one ending due to their own interpretation of what would happen and is morally acceptable would invalidate other choices by calling them inmoral and disgusting.

If there's anything universally true for the endings it's that, apart from people's personal interpretations flipping the balance one way or the other, in essence ALL endings are in moral greyscale. EVEN MEHEM. That MEHEM exists caters to those that need that particular filler to make their headcanon stick, and/or make sense of a game almost everyone is struggling with some form or way. So how hard is it to realise that and to accept the fact that in moral greyscale people will not make the same choices because there is no good and bad and literally every conclusion is reached subjectively.

Now I personally don't use MEHEM because I don't need it. If people don't want to touch it because it was fanmade and will have some kinks, fair enough. But hating on somethign that works and makes some people happy is petty.
The same goes the other way around. Accept that what made you happy isn't what's going to make someone else happy, and just let others be happy with their own choices without feeling a need to invalidate it to feel better about yourself. Note btw that repeating the endings were nonsensical invalidates those thinking differently and is in effect the same damn thing guys. Wording matters, leave room for others.

I still avoid talking about the endings, not because it hurts me or because i'm bitter, simply because I have very little conversational partners that recognize this and don't make others feel like @ssholes for making different choices.

In conclusion, my hat is off to MrFob for what he's said in this thread and what he's done for the community.

Modifié par Ottemis, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:33 .

[Clayless]

Probably because people make threads about it outside of the fan creations section.

[KaiserShep]

Everyone's just jelly 'cause they can't achieve greatness like the PC master race.

[GimmeDaGun]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

"Pro-Enders" to MEHEM,

youtu.be/AUbZJcdlcSc

How dare someone dislike the endings and put a mod (thats voluntary) on their Pc to get more enjoyment from the game.............

Not exactly, at least not in my case. I just find it lame, that's all. Otherwise I don't give a crap about it. I have nothing against other people enjoying it. 

[Hazegurl]

Ottemis wrote...

TheGarden2010 wrote...

bad voice-overs, long blank screens with said bad voice-overs and cheap model replacement. that's why MEHEM sucks. and its fanbois are even worse, spamming "GET MEHEM GET MEHEM" on practically every ending-related thread.

This is why there's hate on both sides. People are unable to accept something to be valid even though it's not a conclusion they reached. There is no absolute truth in interpretation, it's completely subjective. People are so caught up validating their own opinion by devaluing those of others that differ, that there is zero space for acceptance and those opinions existing next to eachother.

Much like the individual ending choices sparked so much hate between players because those that picked one ending due to their own interpretation of what would happen and is morally acceptable would invalidate other choices by calling them inmoral and disgusting.

I still avoid talking about the endings, not because it hurts me or because i'm bitter, simply because I have very little conversational partners that recognize this and don't make others feel like @ssholes for making different choices.

In conclusion, my hat is off to MrFob for what he's said in this thread and what he's done for the community.

I agree with all of this. I don't get why it's so hard to accept different conclusions or interpretations of the story, esp. one that gives people different choices to make. It's only natural that people will reach different conclusions or interpret characters and choices differently. Even if the story was linear it would be the same way. People would see scenes and characters differently than others. I remember mentioning that Liara did not rescue my Shepard from the Shadow broker cause I didn't play LotSB and there was no mention of the event at all in my play through etc. and players had a freaking fit over it. Once again preaching about canon and so on and some supplement story I should read. blah blah. it's like no one can accept that different players have different play throughs and different ways they play this game and they will brow beat it into anyone who disagrees with them. IMO, nothing in ME is canon if it is a choice or a part of supplement materials (comics, novels, DLCs). You either take it or leave it out of your own Shepard's story. 

 I'm counting the days until the next "X ending is obviously better because of...." thread lol!

[ShadowLordXII]

One major reason that I can see for someone not liking the MEHEM is because they actually liked the actual endings for everything that they were. Most people who love the MEHEM hated the actual endings.

So both sides are practically screaming at a brick wall.

For myself, the best way I can justify utilizing the MEHEM is that despite it's inherent restrictions, it honestly feels like a more satisfactory and coherent conclusion to the Mass Effect Trilogy as opposed to the Actual Endings. In his critique of the endings, UnderstatedNerdrage broke down all of the problems with the ending into four categories of betrayal: Genre; Character Focus; Central Conflict and Narrative Cohesion. In a follow-up video centered on the Extended Cut, he noted that only Character Focus was mostly fixed with Genre and Central Conflict remaining broken and Narrative Cohesion only being halfway fixed.

The MEHEM on the other hand, fits better for me and others when you apply these four criteria. It mostly fits with the Genre; It keeps the situation focused on Shepard and the crew; the Central Conflict with the reapers is resolved and Narrative Cohesion remains intact without any of the lore/story/immersion breaking fallacies that occured after the confrontation with the Illusive Man.

In fact, I'm convinced that the endings are so uncompromisingly broken by the Catalyst's very existence that the related sequence of events has no narrative integrity. Therefore, it can be safely ignored since it's based on a contrivance and can be substituted with anything of the player's choice and that substitution will be just as valid as the canon endings. The MEHEM is simply one modder's response to this realization and many people including myself just happen to agree with him.

[Remix-General Aetius]

Ottemis wrote...

TheGarden2010 wrote...

bad voice-overs, long blank screens with said bad voice-overs and cheap model replacement. that's why MEHEM sucks. and its fanbois are even worse, spamming "GET MEHEM GET MEHEM" on practically every ending-related thread.

This is why there's hate on both sides. People are unable to accept something to be valid even though it's not a conclusion they reached. There is no absolute truth in interpretation, it's completely subjective. People are so caught up validating their own opinion by devaluing those of others that differ, that there is zero space for acceptance and those opinions existing next to eachother.

Much like the individual ending choices sparked so much hate between players because those that picked one ending due to their own interpretation of what would happen and is morally acceptable would invalidate other choices by calling them inmoral and disgusting.

If there's anything universally true for the endings it's that, apart from people's personal interpretations flipping the balance one way or the other, in essence ALL endings are in moral greyscale. EVEN MEHEM. That MEHEM exists caters to those that need that particular filler to make their headcanon stick, and/or make sense of a game almost everyone is struggling with some form or way. So how hard is it to realise that and to accept the fact that in moral greyscale people will not make the same choices because there is no good and bad and literally every conclusion is reached subjectively.

Now I personally don't use MEHEM because I don't need it. If people don't want to touch it because it was fanmade and will have some kinks, fair enough. But hating on somethign that works and makes some people happy is petty.
The same goes the other way around. Accept that what made you happy isn't what's going to make someone else happy, and just let others be happy with their own choices without feeling a need to invalidate it to feel better about yourself. Note btw that repeating the endings were nonsensical invalidates those thinking differently and is in effect the same damn thing guys. Wording matters, leave room for others.

I still avoid talking about the endings, not because it hurts me or because i'm bitter, simply because I have very little conversational partners that recognize this and don't make others feel like @ssholes for making different choices.

In conclusion, my hat is off to MrFob for what he's said in this thread and what he's done for the community.

you putting words in my mouth or twisting my words around to suit your own "holier than thou" attitude is all your own doing. my opinion of MEHEM has nothing to do with ending hate. I never participate in any ending threads because I detest the bickering between different ending lovers or general ending haters.

I don't give a damn which ending other people choose and why, I simply mind my own business. my opinion of MEHEM is simple. I tried it myself and I think it sucks. the execution sucks and the content sucks. end of the story.

[Bourne Endeavor]

iakus wrote...

Argentoid wrote...
Plus, Mac Walters thinks that people don't like the ending because its "sad". Well, no. It's because it makes very little sense and destroys the lore in just 5 minutes.

If that's the conclusion they drew, then they didn't look closely enough at the complaints.  Yes, it's part of the problem.  But not the only one.  The endings failed on many levels

Agreed. For instance, I could support the logic that by using the Crucible, it will indiscriminately target all synthetic, provided the preceding narrative had not constructed an entire arc around fostering peace between the Geth and Quarian, one that spanned three games. If this was intent, why not make the Geth well-intended extremists or tragic heroes, something tangible that would impact the audience and make the Geth's demise a gripping and emotional moment?

Tuchanka worked because we believed in Wrex and fought not only for his ideals, but for the entire Krogan. The narrative showed us the weight of their plight and we felt responsible to make it our own. Rannoch, albeit weaker in its execution, has similar aspects.

My complain is not with the concept, but the execution, because what made the aforementioned resonate and touching was complete absence in the ending, thus the Geth's demise is rendered meaningless. It makes sense per se, but became arbitrary and contrived. A plot device can logically fit, yet devoid of any emotional weight. It is worthless.

On the subject of MEHEM. While I have very appreciative of Mr. Fob's work. I am an 360 player and the unfortunate limitations due make the fanon a bit jarring. Still, is closely resembles my own projected ending and am happy to have the MEHEM as an alternative, even if via youtube.

Do I believe BioWare should consider it anything beyond fanon? No. However, I strongly advise they put aside the passive-aggressiveness (as should the fanbase) and realize the vocal disconsent was fans wanting to love the series more.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 21 octobre 2013 - 04:57 .

[Ottemis]

TheGarden2010 wrote...
I don't give a damn which ending other people choose and why, I simply mind my own business. my opinion of MEHEM is simple. I tried it myself and I think it sucks. the execution sucks and the content sucks. end of the story.

Ok so you're just casually pissing on something you happened to dislike then? Don't get me wrong, you can dislike something fine but that's not what you're doing. As to my "holier than thou" attitude,  I simply think you (and many others with you) have a deplorable way of expressing youself on this particular subject. I quoted you as a good example of a "how not to" because that's exactly what it is. That makes you angry, so be it. You didn't seem to stop to think who your remark would hurt, I'm just pointing it out.

Didn't you consider in the enormous amount of work and time that went into it, or did you decide you didn't care who would get hurt if you'd express your opinion as you are? I am a modder, we mod to offer choice, that's ALL we do. I don't expect everyone to like my work, but I expect them to respect the time and effort that went into the creation, because it's the humane thing to do. There is absolutely ZERO reason for you to be this hostile towards it, so why do you feel a need to be?

If you're edgy because others drove you there on this subject, I can understand you get hostile but in the end you decide how you express yourself and wether or not you let yourself be influenced by the tone of others, and when it comes to mods like MEHEM, keeping a respectful attitude is in my book something that should always be there.

My post wasn't just directed at you, it was a carpetbomb covering most of the negative responces in this thread. You were just one of many in the end. Now this is starting to look like a moral crusade, which never ends well on forums so I won't be returning to this conversation.

Modifié par Ottemis, 21 octobre 2013 - 03:52 .

[wright1978]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

One major reason that I can see for someone not liking the MEHEM is because they actually liked the actual endings for everything that they were. Most people who love the MEHEM hated the actual endings.

So both sides are practically screaming at a brick wall.

For myself, the best way I can justify utilizing the MEHEM is that despite it's inherent restrictions, it honestly feels like a more satisfactory and coherent conclusion to the Mass Effect Trilogy as opposed to the Actual Endings. In his critique of the endings, UnderstatedNerdrage broke down all of the problems with the ending into four categories of betrayal: Genre; Character Focus; Central Conflict and Narrative Cohesion. In a follow-up video centered on the Extended Cut, he noted that only Character Focus was mostly fixed with Genre and Central Conflict remaining broken and Narrative Cohesion only being halfway fixed.

The MEHEM on the other hand, fits better for me and others when you apply these four criteria. It mostly fits with the Genre; It keeps the situation focused on Shepard and the crew; the Central Conflict with the reapers is resolved and Narrative Cohesion remains intact without any of the lore/story/immersion breaking fallacies that occured after the confrontation with the Illusive Man.

In fact, I'm convinced that the endings are so uncompromisingly broken by the Catalyst's very existence that the related sequence of events has no narrative integrity. Therefore, it can be safely ignored since it's based on a contrivance and can be substituted with anything of the player's choice and that substitution will be just as valid as the canon endings. The MEHEM is simply one modder's response to this realization and many people including myself just happen to agree with him.

The bolded pretty much sums up my view.

[Dr. Megaverse]

wright1978 wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

In fact, I'm convinced that the endings are so uncompromisingly broken by the Catalyst's very existence that the related sequence of events has no narrative integrity. Therefore, it can be safely ignored since it's based on a contrivance and can be substituted with anything of the player's choice and that substitution will be just as valid as the canon endings. The MEHEM is simply one modder's response to this realization and many people including myself just happen to agree with him.

The bolded pretty much sums up my view.

Careful now...don't want to stir up a fan boi nest now.  'Dem nasties is costly....

[CronoDragoon]

Ottemis wrote...
Now this is starting to look like a moral crusade, which never ends well on forums so I won't be returning to this conversation.

While I don't think saying something "sucks" is very productive or nice (even though he did list some reasons for his belief, which indeed makes it a fine post critically) I also don't much like the assertion that others "need" or "should" respect the time you spend on your hobby.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 22 octobre 2013 - 04:09 .

[RiouHotaru]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
Do I believe BioWare should consider it anything beyond fanon? No. However, I strongly advise they put aside the passive-aggressiveness (as should the fanbase) and realize the vocal disconsent was fans wanting to love the series more.

What passive-aggressiveness?  It's amazing how much the fanbase reads between the imaginary lines.  Sure, there's vocal discontent, it was loud enough to warrant the creation of the Extended Cut.  And I say "loud enough" because there's no way to be absolutely sure of the numbers involved, nor would I care to hazard a guess.

But Bioware has not been passive-aggressive.  Passive maybe, yes.  But that's typical company policy these days.  You can't say too much, or people will find context that doesn't exist (People insisting Refuse was made to directly insult the fans, despite this NOT being the case).  So in almost all cases it's better to say nothing.

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I don't have MEHEM installed and never will. I will always choose to accept canon possibilities over fan fiction.

That being said, I have no real reason to hate on MEHEM's existence or others' decision to make it the ending to their story. No MEHEM users I have seen have suggested that it is an official canon possibility or that others who choose not to use MEHEM "should" use it because it's better. They very clearly state that it's a personal decision to believe in an unofficial ending than accept the current ones.

Which, when we're talking about a work of fiction, is something I find to be acceptable and even healthy. It's taking the idea of "don't like it? make something better" and applying it. I've read a lot of crappy fan fiction in my earlier days, and some good stuff. Fan fiction, on the whole, can be a very liberating and cathartic exercise. There's nothing wrong with creation borne out of frustration of others' works, and indeed I can think of many writers who began writing because of dissatisfaction with what they were reading.

I don't find a game mod to be any different. It's a different form of fan fiction, one that improves someone's enjoyment of the game. So long as they recognize the personal nature of their ending and don't suggest that it is as legitimate as BioWare's for others, then I don't see the issue.

Very good post and to the point.  I like MEHEM-I'd have preferred an opportunity in game (and on the xbox) to get to some sort of ending somewhere like it, but always it was never my intent to tell anyone that's the ending they should get and love.  This is at the core I think of the debate and always will be.  MEHEM externally (outside of BW) takes fan's (some of them) considerations and suggestions and "paints" them.  Others say this is a travesty, taking someone else's creation and defacing it-but if that were so, then it would be impossible to do and BW would not allow any sort of discussion about it on a site they pay for.  As the creators, only they really can say it's not allowed, and they don't say that.

The other thing that I think is behind some of this, is an inherent dislike of those that wanted something "happier"-that's been a constant here.  Even when extensively explained that happier didn't mean rainbows and puppies, people still asserted that that's exactly what it meant.  And many said they didn't want that because that was not their canon ending-in fact, some wanted the galaxy destroyed and thought that made more sense. 

MEHEM does mostly (unitl the low EMS version is worked out completely) only end happily.  It still isn't bunnies and unicorns or Disney, but it does lack (out of necessity) what my full wished for ending would include.  So, sure it comes off as more sappily happy but there's no way around it.  My wish would have been for a more logical ending that didn't involve some created propped up choice issued by some unknown being(s) for a purpose that was not MY purpose throughout 3 games.  I'd have liked one or more that didn't involve the Leviathans as they ended up being, the reapers as they ended up being, and the kid in total.  I'd have rather had choices, actions, and all that lead up to failure, sacrifice (nobel with purpose), bittersweet win-loss, and a full on win with story to support it all.  And I'd have liked a real epilog where each outcome is explored in a satisfying way that lets me know just what kind of galaxy has been left behind or what its destruction meant.

It's why I've always said that happier never meant full on happy because it would have meant basically dead reapers, most of squad and Shepard intact, LI alive, and yet the galaxy would still be a mess.  It would have shown the aftermath with the real rebuilding beginning in that epilog.

So, I think at heart why people really criticize MEHEM is because it is a happy ending.  But there was no way MEHEM could do everything-it couldn't remake the ending completely and had to mostly take from what already existed.  It shows what I always wanted to at least have the chance of getting-a short scene of Shepard alive SEEING his/her LI and teammates alive as well.  I'd have rather BW integrated it into the game and made it something I worked for with a realistic epilog.  MEHEM and the Citadel Epilog Mod at the very least make the game feel a lot better and for me they make it playable again.  Not for everyone, but then when has everyone cared about those of us who wanted some happier ending?  Instead, they continually asserted that we should head canon our own endings if we didn't like what we got. 

I don't see what the difference is between head canon and MEHEM, but then I tend to often think some just like to see others unhappy.  If that suits them, they have 4 endings that allow them to do just that.  We did everything to try and get BW to see that some don't like unhappiness or needed a different version of happy--MEHEM came along to help.  CEM gives it an epilog-actually, sort of what BW intended the Citadel to be anyway.

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

Argentoid wrote...
Plus, Mac Walters thinks that people don't like the ending because its "sad". Well, no. It's because it makes very little sense and destroys the lore in just 5 minutes.

If that's the conclusion they drew, then they didn't look closely enough at the complaints.  Yes, it's part of the problem.  But not the only one.  The endings failed on many levels

Exactly-it was true that a few times people at Bioware said the reason people didn't like it was because it was sad or because it was the end of Shepard's story arc.  They completely missed the point but perhaps purposely so.  I don't think they're stupid so either they just didn't read what people wrote or they just decided to ignore it and simplistically assign the blame to something else--because it just couldn't be that the endings made no sense and didn't go with over 100 hours of story and gameplay that came before.

All people ever read or ever see is that people wanted some simple-minded super happy ending, which is untrue.  It ultimately came down to wanting a happy ending because "we" knew we'd get nothing else and nothing better.  But I know "we" wanted so much more and having it make sense was at the top of the list.